HomeDiagramsDatabaseMapsForumSkyscraper Posters
     

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Regional Sections > Canada

Reply

 
Thread Tools Display Modes
     
     
  #81  
Old Posted Aug 28, 2017, 7:07 PM
lrt's friend lrt's friend is online now
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 6,124
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reesonov View Post
A couple of thoughts:

(1) I hate how terms like "SJW", "Alt-Right", and "Ctrl-Left" have taken on lives of their own.

(2) I don't understand the outrage over this proposal. I mean, I think most of would agree with the straight-forward proposition that, as a society, we should not commemorate every historical figure by naming public institutions, facilities, etc. after them. I doubt many would complain if/when the German government chose to rename the Hitler Civic Library or if/when the Russian government chose to rename the Stalin School of Human Rights.

Now, is this an appropriate case for a government or school board in Canada to take such action? Probably not. But I do not think that it is outrageous for us, as a society, to have these sorts of conversations (personally.) I do not think that this is a case of "political correctness" (a term that has become so unfairly pejorative that I wonder if it has any serious meaning any more) run amok.
But are we having the correct conversation?

I am getting the 'whoa is me' syndrome coming out of this. We can't live in the present, because of symbols of the past. Give me a break! We are not talking about Hitler or Stalin here.

By all means discuss what really happened in the past, but I bet there will be attempts to slant even that in certain ways. As others have said in the media, history has a lot of nuances. It is very easy to gloss over that to make a certain point. And this is when we do get into potential political correctness.

We are seeing more and more the 'colonization' card being thrown out. John A. MacDonald is part of that, but so is everybody else who ended up immigrating to North America. But no matter what, colonization was going to take place. It was inevitable. The indigenous population were not sufficiently organized or sophisticated enough to stop it. How can we apologize in perpetuity for something that was inevitable?

I am not sure how you can have real reconciliation if the plan is for perpetual shaming, and shaming every symbol of the dominant culture. This is where this is heading. This is only the tip of the iceberg. How is this going to produce a happier outcome?

We cannot amend the past. We can only make things better today with real actions. Respect is expected but you can only achieve that if respect is returned.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #82  
Old Posted Aug 28, 2017, 7:08 PM
Acajack's Avatar
Acajack Acajack is online now
I used to be THAT guy
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Vieux Canada
Posts: 28,728
Quote:
Originally Posted by whatnext View Post
But it is a very good analogy. Humans have been displacing other humans for millenia.
Agree that it was good.
__________________
Va où il y a des livres. - Robert Sabatier
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #83  
Old Posted Aug 28, 2017, 7:08 PM
Reesonov's Avatar
Reesonov Reesonov is offline
Khan
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Kingston, Ontario
Posts: 3,689
Quote:
Originally Posted by whatnext View Post
But it is a very good analogy. Humans have been displacing other humans for millenia.
I'm not sure what this has to do with anything? Historical grievances between other peoples should be left to them to resolve. The issue at hand is the grievance between Canada (or the Crown) and the First Nations peoples who live here. That grievance shows no signs of just disappearing on its own. Therefore, it seems incumbent upon us, as Canadians, to seek some sort of reasonable resolution.
__________________
Confucius says:
With coarse rice to eat, with water to drink, and my bended arm for a pillow - I have still joy in the midst of these things. Riches and honors acquired by unrighteousness are to me as a floating cloud.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #84  
Old Posted Aug 28, 2017, 7:14 PM
Reesonov's Avatar
Reesonov Reesonov is offline
Khan
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Kingston, Ontario
Posts: 3,689
Quote:
Originally Posted by lrt's friend View Post

We are seeing more and more the 'colonization' card being thrown out. John A. MacDonald is part of that, but so is everybody else who ended up immigrating to North America. But not matter what, colonization was going to take place. It was inevitable. The indigenous population were not sufficiently organized or sophisticated enough to stop it. How can we apologize in perpetuity for something that was inevitable?
Well, I wouldn't presume to speak for First Nations people, but I doubt that an apology is near the top of the list in terms of remedies that they seek.

EDIT: Walking back from this comment a little bit. Substantive change is obviously important, but so are symbols (as the strong opinions on this topic [on both sides] seems to demonstrate.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by lrt's friend View Post
I am not sure how you can have real reconciliation if the plan is for perpetual shaming, and shaming every symbol of the dominant culture. This is where this is heading. This is only the tip of the iceberg. How is this going to produce a happier outcome?

We cannot amend the past. We can only make things better today with real actions. Respect is expected but you can only achieve that if respect is returned.
I mean, until you or I are sent to a boarding school explicitly designed to shame our culture and to remove us from its bad influence (where we are also subjected to systematic physical and sexual abuse), I'm not sure that our complaints about being "shamed" are going to fall on very sympathetic ears (in the circumstances.)
__________________
Confucius says:
With coarse rice to eat, with water to drink, and my bended arm for a pillow - I have still joy in the midst of these things. Riches and honors acquired by unrighteousness are to me as a floating cloud.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #85  
Old Posted Aug 28, 2017, 7:26 PM
GernB GernB is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Lethbridge AB
Posts: 753
Quote:
Originally Posted by elly63 View Post
What about Canada's Father of Healthcare Tommy Douglas? Let these fascist idiots find out a little about his background and they'll want to tear down his statue too.
Could also apply to Trudeau Mk.1, as he attempted in 1969 to eliminate Indian Reserves.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #86  
Old Posted Aug 28, 2017, 7:30 PM
lrt's friend lrt's friend is online now
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 6,124
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reesonov View Post
Well, I wouldn't presume to speak for First Nations people, but I doubt that an apology is near the top of the list in terms of remedies that they seek.



I mean, until you or I are sent to a boarding school explicitly designed to shame our culture and to remove us from its bad influence (where we are also subjected to systematic physical and sexual abuse), I'm not sure that our complaints about being "shamed" are going to fall on very sympathetic ears (in the circumstances.)
I am sorry, but shaming only goes so far. We need to discuss history, and move on to real action and a perfect way forward is to invest in indigenous education. Poor education that is not relevant to the indigenous population is a source of many problems. We can talk and talk about the past, but it doesn't help anybody in the present.

And just remember that physical and sexual abuse was not systematic. This was done by individuals. Not everybody who worked or taught in residential schools were violent perverts. There were many good people there as well. We all know that these abuses didn't just happen at these schools but also at any school from that era. It was likely worse in Residential schools because of the lack of parental oversight, but don't kid yourself, abuse was taking place in a lot of schools. We are not so far removed from the era of the strap.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #87  
Old Posted Aug 28, 2017, 7:35 PM
rousseau's Avatar
rousseau rousseau is online now
Registered Drug User
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Southern Ontario
Posts: 4,302
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reesonov View Post
I mean, until you or I are sent to a boarding school explicitly designed to shame our culture...
I agree with the commission on a lot of things, but I honestly don't think you can hold the 19th century to this 21st century standard with regards to "shame."

The deleterious effects of the residential schools are plain, but can't you also account somewhat for the motivations behind setting them up? It was paternalistic and racist, yes. But the most compassionate minds of that era thought they were serving indigenous people best by educating them and helping them assimilate.

Since we keep on throwing out thought experiments, here's another one: what if no effort had been made whatsoever to offer education to indigenous peoples in the late 19th and early 20th centuries? Wouldn't that have been held up as a sign of neglect and cruelty?
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #88  
Old Posted Aug 28, 2017, 7:43 PM
elly63 elly63 is online now
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 3,235
Quote:
Originally Posted by GernB View Post
Could also apply to Trudeau Mk.1, as he attempted in 1969 to eliminate Indian Reserves.
PET, good friend to the west. 🖕
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #89  
Old Posted Aug 28, 2017, 7:51 PM
Reesonov's Avatar
Reesonov Reesonov is offline
Khan
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Kingston, Ontario
Posts: 3,689
Quote:
Originally Posted by rousseau View Post
I agree with the commission on a lot of things, but I honestly don't think you can hold the 19th century to this 21st century standard with regards to "shame."

The deleterious effects of the residential schools are plain, but can't you also account somewhat for the motivations behind setting them up? It was paternalistic and racist, yes. But the most compassionate minds of that era thought they were serving indigenous people best by educating them and helping them assimilate.

Since we keep on throwing out thought experiments, here's another one: what if no effort had been made whatsoever to offer education to indigenous peoples in the late 19th and early 20th centuries? Wouldn't that have been held up as a sign of neglect and cruelty?
I don't disagree with that. I would simply counter that the people who are "shaming" those of us who share ancestral roots with Sir John A MacDonald (*cough* white people *cough*) have similarly altruistic intentions.

None of that changes my mind regarding the point that I was trying (perhaps inelegantly) to make: the fact that this conversation might make some Canadians feel uncomfortable about the past (which is what I take it lrtsfriend means by "shame") is not a very compelling reason to not have the conversation.

EDIT: Sorry, to answer your hypothetical question: yes, if the Canadian government had spent less money to educate first nations children than non-first nations children, I think that would be viewed negatively (as discrimination) by today's standards. Of course, ironically, even today, it may not be a hypothetical. Don Drummond has argued that First Nations children living on reserve receive 30% less education funding from the federal government than children not living on reserves do (from provincial governments LINK: http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/thunde...-gap-1.3487822).
__________________
Confucius says:
With coarse rice to eat, with water to drink, and my bended arm for a pillow - I have still joy in the midst of these things. Riches and honors acquired by unrighteousness are to me as a floating cloud.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #90  
Old Posted Aug 28, 2017, 8:01 PM
SignalHillHiker's Avatar
SignalHillHiker SignalHillHiker is online now
I ♣ Baby Seals
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: See post below...
Posts: 24,547
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reesonov View Post
I mean, until you or I are sent to a boarding school explicitly designed to shame our culture and to remove us from its bad influence (where we are also subjected to systematic physical and sexual abuse), I'm not sure that our complaints about being "shamed" are going to fall on very sympathetic ears (in the circumstances.)
We've had a tiny taste of it - our accents being "corrected" in schools, ridicule and laughter at the mention of where we're from, prejudice in housing, employment, law enforcement, etc. A very, very tiny taste.

And it was awful. It changed who I am. It's one of the reasons that made me a separatist. And it was, comparatively, such a tiny taste.

So I do have a lot of sympathy for reparations for indigenous people.
__________________
Note to self: "The plural of anecdote is not evidence."
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #91  
Old Posted Aug 28, 2017, 8:04 PM
Acajack's Avatar
Acajack Acajack is online now
I used to be THAT guy
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Vieux Canada
Posts: 28,728
Quote:
Originally Posted by SignalHillHiker View Post
We've had a tiny taste of it - our accents being "corrected" in schools, ridicule and laughter at the mention of where we're from, prejudice in housing, employment, law enforcement, etc. A very, very tiny taste.

And it was awful. It changed who I am. It's one of the reasons that made me a separatist. And it was, comparatively, such a tiny taste.

So I do have a lot of sympathy for reparations for indigenous people.
Did this happen in Newfoundland or on the mainland?
__________________
Va où il y a des livres. - Robert Sabatier
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #92  
Old Posted Aug 28, 2017, 8:07 PM
Reesonov's Avatar
Reesonov Reesonov is offline
Khan
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Kingston, Ontario
Posts: 3,689
Quote:
Originally Posted by lrt's friend View Post
I am sorry, but shaming only goes so far. We need to discuss history, and move on to real action and a perfect way forward is to invest in indigenous education. Poor education that is not relevant to the indigenous population is a source of many problems. We can talk and talk about the past, but it doesn't help anybody in the present. .
Well, yes, I completely agree with you on this point. I don't think that anyone seriously suggests that, for example, apologies alone could possibly lead to reconciliation. Frankly, it would be an absurd position to take.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lrt's friend View Post
And just remember that physical and sexual abuse was not systematic. This was done by individuals. Not everybody who worked or taught in residential schools were violent perverts. There were many good people there as well. We all know that these abuses didn't just happen at these schools but also at any school from that era. It was likely worse in Residential schools because of the lack of parental oversight, but don't kid yourself, abuse was taking place in a lot of schools. We are not so far removed from the era of the strap.
Perhaps I used the word "systematic" clumsily. In any event, the residential schools were a systematic effort to diminish or destroy first nations cultures. I can't say whether there is enough evidence to conclude that the physical and sexual abuse that accompanied that systematic effort was, itself, systematic. In any event, the first fact (that the schools were a systematic effort to diminish or destroy a culture) is sufficient on its own to distinguish the residential school system from the "era of the strap".
__________________
Confucius says:
With coarse rice to eat, with water to drink, and my bended arm for a pillow - I have still joy in the midst of these things. Riches and honors acquired by unrighteousness are to me as a floating cloud.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #93  
Old Posted Aug 28, 2017, 8:10 PM
niwell's Avatar
niwell niwell is online now
you go on ahead
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Parkdale, Toronto
Posts: 7,428
Also worth noting - even though the roots of the residential school system date back to the 19th century, it's not exactly a problem relegated to that century. The number of schools peaked in the 30s and while decreased afterwards, lasted in large numbers till the 60s. One of my ex-girlfriend's mom went to a residential school. People did simply disappear.
Not exactly distant memories for a lot of families.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #94  
Old Posted Aug 28, 2017, 8:23 PM
SignalHillHiker's Avatar
SignalHillHiker SignalHillHiker is online now
I ♣ Baby Seals
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: See post below...
Posts: 24,547
Quote:
Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
Did this happen in Newfoundland or on the mainland?
Mainland. Halifax, 1999; Moncton, 2000; Toronto, 2001. It's changed a lot since then, BTW (now the reaction to my accent, or saying where I'm from, or whatever else, is sheer delight, excitement. I've worn down that welcome on SSP, of course, but in my daily interactions with mainlanders, that's the overwhelmingly dominant reaction. The switch was enormous and sudden), which I forgot to mention. I was too focused on trying to make it clear I am NOT comparing to indigenous. Just the tiniest sample of similar things.
__________________
Note to self: "The plural of anecdote is not evidence."
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #95  
Old Posted Aug 28, 2017, 8:27 PM
esquire's Avatar
esquire esquire is online now
Think about Winnipeg.
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 17,621
Quote:
Originally Posted by niwell View Post
Also worth noting - even though the roots of the residential school system date back to the 19th century, it's not exactly a problem relegated to that century. The number of schools peaked in the 30s and while decreased afterwards, lasted in large numbers till the 60s. One of my ex-girlfriend's mom went to a residential school. People did simply disappear.
Not exactly distant memories for a lot of families.
As hard as it is to believe, the last one didn't close until 1996.

Residential schools have to be right up there with the worst, most ill-thought out public policies in Canadian history. A disaster from start to finish. Having kids of my own has made me better appreciate how devastating it must have been for everyone affected.

There's really no debate when it comes to that issue... the question is whether involvement in that system is enough to taint someone to the point that they should no longer be recognized as a historical figure. In my view it isn't, and I don't believe it is appropriate to judge Sir John A. solely through the lens of residential schools.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #96  
Old Posted Aug 28, 2017, 8:35 PM
Architype's Avatar
Architype Architype is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Pacific Canada
Posts: 6,598
Quote:
Originally Posted by SignalHillHiker View Post
We've had a tiny taste of it - our accents being "corrected" in schools, ridicule and laughter at the mention of where we're from, prejudice in housing, employment, law enforcement, etc. A very, very tiny taste.

And it was awful. It changed who I am. It's one of the reasons that made me a separatist. And it was, comparatively, such a tiny taste.

So I do have a lot of sympathy for reparations for indigenous people.
My experience was not the same, and there was certainly nothing to turn me into a separatist, but I know the treatment of rural people by townies would have been exactly the same as you describe for some. In relation to the above referenced subject, I experienced nothing in the Nfld. education system to shame people about our history. I remember being taught plenty of Nfld. history as well as Canadian history. Much of the "separatist" attitude existing today has been spun or created by generations much farther removed from the harsh realities of pre confederation life, it has been romanticized beyond reality in order to make an emotionally charged more interesting narrative which plays very well for tourism and the arts.

Last edited by Architype; Aug 28, 2017 at 8:48 PM.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #97  
Old Posted Aug 28, 2017, 8:37 PM
Reesonov's Avatar
Reesonov Reesonov is offline
Khan
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Kingston, Ontario
Posts: 3,689
Quote:
Originally Posted by esquire View Post

There's really no debate when it comes to that issue... the question is whether involvement in that system is enough to taint someone to the point that they should no longer be recognized as a historical figure. In my view it isn't, and I don't believe it is appropriate to judge Sir John A. solely through the lens of residential schools.

Well, the debate isn't over whether or not Sir John A MacDonald should continue to be recognized as a historical figure (I mean, it wouldn't be possible to change that even if we wanted to.) The debate is whether or not he should continue to be commemorated in elementary school names.

For example, here is an excerpt from a Ontario public school board's school naming policy:

Quote:
Trustees, as elected representatives of their community, lead the process to name and, at times, to rename schools.

Establishing school names provides a unique opportunity to enhance the identity of the Board and its schools. School names must support the Board’s mission, vision and values and meet the best interests of students and the community.

The name of a school is carefully chosen to provide an inspiration for learning. It should reflect the environment in which students will learn and develop, and be a positive influence for all members of the school community as they work collaboratively to create and deliver programs which inspire learning.
I suspect that most other school boards have very similar policies.

Is naming a school after Sir John A MacDonald consistent with such policies?

It doesn't strike me as an obvious answer. You have concluded that it is. Seems like a reasonable conclusion to come to. Others could reasonable disagree.

Ultimately, I don't think that the question itself is ridiculous. I don't think it warrants nonchalant dismissal as "SJWs strike again!" or "I'm being oppressed by the CTRL-Left!"
__________________
Confucius says:
With coarse rice to eat, with water to drink, and my bended arm for a pillow - I have still joy in the midst of these things. Riches and honors acquired by unrighteousness are to me as a floating cloud.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #98  
Old Posted Aug 28, 2017, 8:43 PM
esquire's Avatar
esquire esquire is online now
Think about Winnipeg.
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 17,621
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reesonov View Post
Well, the debate isn't over whether or not Sir John A MacDonald should continue to be recognized as a historical figure (I mean, it wouldn't be possible to change that even if we wanted to.) The debate is whether or not he should continue to be commemorated in elementary school names.
I thought the context of this thread would have made it clear that naming schools after Sir John A. was what I was referring to.

And yes, to me at least, it's a slam dunk that he continues to meets the criteria set out in the policy that you quoted. Fair enough if you disagree. I don't think the question is ridiculous either, I'm not sure where that came from. Reasonable people can disagree on this matter.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #99  
Old Posted Aug 28, 2017, 8:48 PM
SignalHillHiker's Avatar
SignalHillHiker SignalHillHiker is online now
I ♣ Baby Seals
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: See post below...
Posts: 24,547
Quote:
Originally Posted by Architype View Post
My experience was not the same, and there was certainly nothing to turn me into a separatist, but I know the treatment of rural people by townies would have been exactly the same as you describe for some. In relation to the above referenced subject, I experienced nothing in the Nfld. education system to shame people about our history. I remember being taught plenty of Nfld. history as well as Canadian history. Much of the "separatist" attitude existing today has been spun or created by generations much farther removed from the harsh realities of pre confederation life, it has been romanticized beyond reality in order to make an emotionally charged more interesting narrative.
You're lucky. I couldn't escape it, even initially when I wasn't at all proud of our people. And yes, Town was awful, but the outports were just as bitchy to each other, often worse. You would've been treated no better in Bonavista or Burin than you were in St. John's.
__________________
Note to self: "The plural of anecdote is not evidence."
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #100  
Old Posted Aug 28, 2017, 8:50 PM
Reesonov's Avatar
Reesonov Reesonov is offline
Khan
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Kingston, Ontario
Posts: 3,689
Quote:
Originally Posted by esquire View Post
I thought the context of this thread would have made it clear that naming schools after Sir John A. was what I was referring to.

And yes, to me at least, it's a slam dunk that he continues to meets the criteria set out in the policy that you quoted. Fair enough if you disagree. I don't think the question is ridiculous either, I'm not sure where that came from. Reasonable people can disagree on this matter.
From the first page of this thread alone:

Quote:
Originally Posted by whatnext View Post
Congrats SHWs you just turned me against most of your causes. To the hapless Ontario Elementary Teachers Federation, you just reinforced every negative perception of teachers as airheaded bandwagoneers. To Idle No More etc you're in severe danger of fuelling the rise of Trumplike figures in Canada.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MonctonRad View Post
You really think so? Being a Progressive conservative, I belong to the mushy middle and it seems to me that the nutbars on the CTRL-left have completely hijacked the agenda, and that the SJW are pressing their current advantage (fed by anti-Trump hysteria) to the lunatic fringe.

Sir John A is the father of our country for cripes sake. He should be viewed with appropriate respect. We should acknowledge his warts (alcoholism etc), but appreciate him for what he was - a flawed man who accomplished great things. Against great odds he built Canada and bound it together with a massive railway project completed less than 20 years after confederation. Not many prime ministers have accomplished what he has done. By any measure he is one of our three greatest PM's.

As for the residential schools, he was just a man of his times. The thinking back then was that the best way to build the country was to assimilate the native people. Obviously this was not the best approach, but hindsight is always 20/20. People motives always have to be viewed in historical context and people thought differently 20 years ago, let alone 150 years ago.

The SJW's can go fuck themselves. I am fed up to here with them. They have gone way too far. The radical CTRL-Left is accomplishing nothing more than driving people like me (people who can see both sides of an issue) in the opposite direction. Is this really what they want? The SJW's should be building bridges to the people in the mushy middle, not lobbing hand grenades at us from the moral high ground. Of course, I forget that the SJW's have already decided that I'm an enemy because I don't agree with them a good portion of the time. Instead of trying to convincing me with reasoned arguments, it's far simpler to just label me as a misogynist and a racist and then discredit me. This is an excellent way to create enemies.

I despise Trump, but the SJW's are no better...........
Quote:
Originally Posted by elly63 View Post
What about Canada's Father of Healthcare Tommy Douglas? Let these fascist idiots find out a little about his background and they'll want to tear down his statue too.
Quote:
Originally Posted by esquire View Post
It's all starting to remind me a bit of Mao-era China... instead of Red Guards we have university sociology departments whipping up hysteria, and now we have people wanting to banish Sir John A. MacDonald the same way that the Maoists turned on Lin Biao and the Gang of Four and ended up purging them.

It's our own kinder, gentler Canadian-style cultural revolution!
__________________
Confucius says:
With coarse rice to eat, with water to drink, and my bended arm for a pillow - I have still joy in the midst of these things. Riches and honors acquired by unrighteousness are to me as a floating cloud.
Reply With Quote
     
     
This discussion thread continues

Use the page links to the lower-right to go to the next page for additional posts
 
 
Reply

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Regional Sections > Canada
Forum Jump


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 5:31 PM.

     

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.