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  #1  
Old Posted Sep 7, 2017, 4:32 PM
VANRIDERFAN VANRIDERFAN is offline
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BC Nanny State

This story got me thinking. Is it safer or more dangerous out there for kids then when I was a pre-teen. For parents of elementary school age kids today, what is their tolerance compared to their parents tolerance.

I know that when I was a child I had a better chance of being killed by a piece of farm equipment or an animal than being abducted by a pedophile on my way to school!


Four Children ages 7-11 not able to ride transit bus alone to school.

http://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/canada...gLE&ocid=ientp

VANCOUVER - A Vancouver father says a "hugely disappointing" decision by social workers to stop his kids from riding the bus to school alone is robbing them of their independence.

Adrian Crook says he spent two years training his four eldest children, ages seven to 11, to take the 45-minute public transit trip. The case is sparking debate about whether expectations about parental supervision have gone too far.

"Your job as a parent is to raise your kids to not need you eventually," said Crook, who has five children.

"You don't want to rush them through that process, as much for them as it is heartbreaking for you. But if they're comfortable taking on certain risks, it's sort of incumbent upon you to gauge whether they're ready."

He said the 13-kilometre trip begins with a bus stop visible from his downtown condominium and ends with a stop directly in front of their North Vancouver school, and the children always travel with a cellphone that allows him to track their location.

Crook said his heart sank when the Children's Ministry called saying a tip had been received about the kids taking transit alone and that an investigation would follow.

"It was pretty shocking," he said. "I just kind of hoped that they would see the bigger picture."

He said he wanted his kids to take the bus because it's safer and more sustainable than driving and, crucially, it teaches them independence. A distant reason was to save money by using public transit, he said.

After a weeks-long investigation, the ministry concluded that children under the age of 10 cannot be left unsupervised — whether on a bus, riding bikes around the neighbourhood or walking to the corner store, he said.

Crook shares custody with the kids' mother, who lives closer to the school, so they were taking the bus half the time while staying with him. Now they can't even walk to school from her home, he said.

He said the ministry said its decision was based on a British Columbia court ruling that found an eight-year-old could not be left at home alone. It also said that in other provinces, the legal age to be unsupervised is much higher, including 16 in Ontario, he said.

In a statement, the ministry said it cannot comment on specific cases but when it receives a report about an unattended child, social workers assess the kid's safety and the parent's ability to provide care before taking the most appropriate course of action.

"If social workers determine there is a risk to a child (or) to children, their first step is to immediately reduce that risk," it said.

There is no precise legal age at which kids can be left unsupervised, nor is there a specific ministerial policy, the ministry added.

The Ontario Ministry of Children and Youth Services did not immediately respond to a request for comment on the claim that kids under 16 cannot be left unattended in the province.

Crook wrote about his situation on his blog, "5 Kids 1 Condo," and is now raising money online to mount a legal challenge.

Mariana Brussoni, a population and public health professor at the University of British Columbia, said the case highlights how social expectations for parents have changed in recent decades.

"You wouldn't in a million years dream of, 20 years ago, this sort of story happening," she said. "Nobody raised an eyebrow when kids were walking to school or taking the bus or getting themselves around."

Overprotective parenting has become normal and is harmful to children, who need to take risks and explore being on their own in order to build self-confidence, she said.

Brussoni said riding a bus is safer than being in a car.
There were no deaths of children 14 and under on buses in Canada between 2009 and 2013, according to the most recent available data from Statistics Canada. During the same period, 106 children died inside private vehicles.
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  #2  
Old Posted Sep 7, 2017, 4:41 PM
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You have a greater chance of your child being taken by the Ministry of Child and Family Services than by a pedophile.

Also, riding in a car is the most dangerous thing a child can do, it's the leading cause of unintentional injury deaths for children between the ages of 1 and 19. And kids are more likely to be abducted or assaulted by family members than by a stranger. So shouldn't we register neglect complaints against parents who put their kids in a car or take them to a family birthday party? Both of those situations are more dangerous to kids than letting them ride a bus to school.
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  #3  
Old Posted Sep 7, 2017, 5:07 PM
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This guy has no argument here allowing his 4 kids aged from 7 to 11 to ride solo on public for 11 kilometres. Why did you even have four children?

I don't believe it's more dangerous for kids now than a few generations ago. That shouldn't matter. It's just kids are kids. They do stupid things.
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  #4  
Old Posted Sep 7, 2017, 5:22 PM
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Was more dangerous in the past, but with 24/7 news coverage and breaking news alerts to your phone, it seems worse now because we hear about every single incident in depth.
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  #5  
Old Posted Sep 7, 2017, 6:36 PM
SaskOttaLoo SaskOttaLoo is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VANRIDERFAN View Post
This story got me thinking. Is it safer or more dangerous out there for kids then when I was a pre-teen. For parents of elementary school age kids today, what is their tolerance compared to their parents tolerance.

I know that when I was a child I had a better chance of being killed by a piece of farm equipment or an animal than being abducted by a pedophile on my way to school!


Four Children ages 7-11 not able to ride transit bus alone to school.

http://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/canada...gLE&ocid=ientp

VANCOUVER - A Vancouver father says a "hugely disappointing" decision by social workers to stop his kids from riding the bus to school alone is robbing them of their independence.

Adrian Crook says he spent two years training his four eldest children, ages seven to 11, to take the 45-minute public transit trip. The case is sparking debate about whether expectations about parental supervision have gone too far.

"Your job as a parent is to raise your kids to not need you eventually," said Crook, who has five children.

"You don't want to rush them through that process, as much for them as it is heartbreaking for you. But if they're comfortable taking on certain risks, it's sort of incumbent upon you to gauge whether they're ready."

He said the 13-kilometre trip begins with a bus stop visible from his downtown condominium and ends with a stop directly in front of their North Vancouver school, and the children always travel with a cellphone that allows him to track their location.

Crook said his heart sank when the Children's Ministry called saying a tip had been received about the kids taking transit alone and that an investigation would follow.

"It was pretty shocking," he said. "I just kind of hoped that they would see the bigger picture."

He said he wanted his kids to take the bus because it's safer and more sustainable than driving and, crucially, it teaches them independence. A distant reason was to save money by using public transit, he said.

After a weeks-long investigation, the ministry concluded that children under the age of 10 cannot be left unsupervised — whether on a bus, riding bikes around the neighbourhood or walking to the corner store, he said.

Crook shares custody with the kids' mother, who lives closer to the school, so they were taking the bus half the time while staying with him. Now they can't even walk to school from her home, he said.

He said the ministry said its decision was based on a British Columbia court ruling that found an eight-year-old could not be left at home alone. It also said that in other provinces, the legal age to be unsupervised is much higher, including 16 in Ontario, he said.

In a statement, the ministry said it cannot comment on specific cases but when it receives a report about an unattended child, social workers assess the kid's safety and the parent's ability to provide care before taking the most appropriate course of action.

"If social workers determine there is a risk to a child (or) to children, their first step is to immediately reduce that risk," it said.

There is no precise legal age at which kids can be left unsupervised, nor is there a specific ministerial policy, the ministry added.

The Ontario Ministry of Children and Youth Services did not immediately respond to a request for comment on the claim that kids under 16 cannot be left unattended in the province.

Crook wrote about his situation on his blog, "5 Kids 1 Condo," and is now raising money online to mount a legal challenge.

Mariana Brussoni, a population and public health professor at the University of British Columbia, said the case highlights how social expectations for parents have changed in recent decades.

"You wouldn't in a million years dream of, 20 years ago, this sort of story happening," she said. "Nobody raised an eyebrow when kids were walking to school or taking the bus or getting themselves around."

Overprotective parenting has become normal and is harmful to children, who need to take risks and explore being on their own in order to build self-confidence, she said.

Brussoni said riding a bus is safer than being in a car.
There were no deaths of children 14 and under on buses in Canada between 2009 and 2013, according to the most recent available data from Statistics Canada. During the same period, 106 children died inside private vehicles.
Argh!!! As a father of a young child this drives me absolutely crazy. It would be comical if the risks weren't so severe (going as far as several parents having their children taken away for them for far less than this). I am definitely going to support this court challenge.
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  #6  
Old Posted Sep 7, 2017, 6:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WhipperSnapper View Post
This guy has no argument here allowing his 4 kids aged from 7 to 11 to ride solo on public for 11 kilometres. Why did you even have four children?

I don't believe it's more dangerous for kids now than a few generations ago. That shouldn't matter. It's just kids are kids. They do stupid things.
Are you...suggesting it would be safer if he only had the one kid riding solo? That maybe he should get rid of a few of the kids?
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  #7  
Old Posted Sep 7, 2017, 6:45 PM
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The Children's Ministry's position that children under 10 cannot be unsupervised does not strike me as unreasonable.

It's one thing for an 8 year old to ride their bike to school through the neighbourhood... I used to do that myself when I was a kid. But a 13-km ride through a big city on the bus can be a pretty demanding situation for youngsters like that. Why put young kids in situations they may not be equipped to handle?
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  #8  
Old Posted Sep 7, 2017, 7:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by esquire View Post
The Children's Ministry's position that children under 10 cannot be unsupervised does not strike me as unreasonable.

It's one thing for an 8 year old to ride their bike to school through the neighbourhood... I used to do that myself when I was a kid. But a 13-km ride through a big city on the bus can be a pretty demanding situation for youngsters like that. Why put young kids in situations they may not be equipped to handle?
I starting walked to school and roaming the neighbourhood unsurpervised probably when I was 7 or 8. But yeah, I don't see how the supervision of 7 or 8 year olds, especially while riding a public bus crowded with strangers, equals "nanny state".

And the possible murder of my child would probably not be my main concern if I let him/her ride the bus unsurpervised. Murder rates aren't the only indicator of safety. The article is a joke. If someone thinks the only threat to children's safety is murder, then they shouldn't be a parent.
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  #9  
Old Posted Sep 7, 2017, 8:40 PM
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I walked and rode my bike to school when I was a kid, no problem. School was about a kilometer away.

But that length of commute on city transit for kids that young ? Jeez. If you did that in Edmonton you should probably have your kids taken away from you
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  #10  
Old Posted Sep 7, 2017, 8:50 PM
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As overkill as the Ministry action sounds, this guy also sounds like a bit of an annoying SJW-urbanist type. What's wrong with the school in Vancouver? If it's so important for his kids to go to a school so far away, why doesn't he make the sacrifice instead of making his kids do it? As a "videogame design consultant" he likely works from home.
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  #11  
Old Posted Sep 7, 2017, 9:04 PM
Mikemike Mikemike is offline
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He's divorced and has the kids half-time, so the go to school close to the other parent's home. Sounds reasonable to me.
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  #12  
Old Posted Sep 7, 2017, 9:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Mikemike View Post
He's divorced and has the kids half-time, so the go to school close to the other parent's home. Sounds reasonable to me.
Meh, that explains part of it but there's still no reason he couldn't have a nice condo in Lolo which would work just better. If you have made the choice to have five kids, you should be more attuned to putting their needs before yours.
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  #13  
Old Posted Sep 7, 2017, 11:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by esquire View Post
The Children's Ministry's position that children under 10 cannot be unsupervised does not strike me as unreasonable.

It's one thing for an 8 year old to ride their bike to school through the neighbourhood... I used to do that myself when I was a kid. But a 13-km ride through a big city on the bus can be a pretty demanding situation for youngsters like that. Why put young kids in situations they may not be equipped to handle?
He didn't just put them on a bus and say "go to school", he's been riding with them for a couple of years, and then decided to gradually wean himself off just recently when they showed enough awareness and maturity to handle it themselves. He decided that they were equipped to handle the trip, and they made the trip a few times until the Ministry stepped in.
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  #14  
Old Posted Sep 8, 2017, 1:37 AM
scryer scryer is offline
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Angry

I think that before anyone jumps to conclusions and voice any judgements, that they should get the full story on the situation first.

Making judgements on someone's family situation without being in their shoes is unwise. More research is needed in this story. But at first glance, I side with the father of 5 trying to make an honest-living that's trying to raise these kids without social-assistance. And I think that the SJW's are going to have a field-day with this one.

Last edited by scryer; Sep 8, 2017 at 3:41 AM. Reason: I decided that my previous post was unwise.
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  #15  
Old Posted Sep 8, 2017, 7:13 PM
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Kids have so much more freedom and independence in the 3rd world. No SJWs to ruin them and coddle them. Canada was once like that 100 or 200 year ago. It's sad how weak and limp-wristed our children have become because all this left wing bullshit.
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Old Posted Sep 8, 2017, 8:08 PM
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Quote:
After a weeks-long investigation, the ministry concluded that children under the age of 10 cannot be left unsupervised — whether on a bus, riding bikes around the neighbourhood or walking to the corner store, he said.

He said the ministry said its decision was based on a British Columbia court ruling that found an eight-year-old could not be left at home alone. It also said that in other provinces, the legal age to be unsupervised is much higher, including 16 in Ontario, he said.

Is that actually the case? That someone under 10/16 literally can't be left alone either outside or at home without adult supervision! (not even with an older sibling?) More than a little over-the-top if so (and more than a little disregarded by nearly everyone).
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