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  #81  
Old Posted Apr 3, 2010, 9:19 PM
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The ICE-III (tilting) has the ability to hit sharper curves at high speeds. It also powers every other axle, allowing for grades up to 7% (which is greater than the typical 4% maximum grade for steel-wheel high speed strains). It has solid acceleration both for speeding up and slowing down (deceleration). It has a maximum speed of 220 mph and an average operating speed of up around 178 mph in lines in Germany where it is used in semi-mountainous regions. I understand the LA-Vegas route bypasses the more mountainous areas, but it still is going to pass through a lot of hilly and curvy terrain (it's not Kansas).

Thanks for the link to the DEIS. Unfortunately they did not go through the normal EIS process of evaluating every possible technology possible for this route. Typically in the first round of technology selection, you'll see 8-12 options -- most are eliminated in the first round as too costly or unproven. Instead, the developer said it's either going to be 125 mph DMU or 150 mph EMU HSR and went from there. 220 mph was never studied, nor was 280 mph mag-lev, 110 mph diesel, ect...

I do find it interesting they are considering 125 mph diesel though. Most of the 125 mph options I have seen are for high speed monorail or "American mag-lev" with on-board linear induction motors powered by overhead, electrified catenary cables. Which manufacturer produces the 125 mph DMU's? Are they from Spain?

This DEIS has a lot of excessive paperwork and not enough specific information on the options considered. it's without detailed graphics and explanations of costs and benefits. They are only considering one potential stop between Victorville and Las Vegas, instead of the normal process of considering every potential stop and thinning it down from there. Hopefully the Final EIS will be far better, this DEIS is the worse I've ever seen. Thanks again for hunting it down for us!
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  #82  
Old Posted Apr 3, 2010, 9:26 PM
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^You're talking about an EIS with public funding. A privately-funded train has no reason or requirement to divulge information about what types of trains were considered, as the public has no input on that type of stuff.

I did find the five station options to be pretty disappointing (5MB pdf):

http://www.fra.dot.gov/downloads/rrd..._Site_Plan.pdf

Definitely no plans to link with the monorail, as four of the five locations are on the other side of the strip across the freeway, and the fifth is downtownish (near the outlet mall) nowhere near the semi-planned monorail ROW. A few of the options could be pretty well integrated with the Rio, if some kind of deal with Harrah's could be made.
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  #83  
Old Posted Apr 4, 2010, 7:44 AM
nequidnimis nequidnimis is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SnyderBock View Post
The ICE-III (tilting) has the ability to hit sharper curves at high speeds. It also powers every other axle, allowing for grades up to 7% (which is greater than the typical 4% maximum grade for steel-wheel high speed strains). It has solid acceleration both for speeding up and slowing down (deceleration).
You're talking about the train with the cracked axles, right?

http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/s.../browse/7.html
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  #84  
Old Posted Apr 4, 2010, 3:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SnyderBock View Post
The ICE-III (tilting) has the ability to hit sharper curves at high speeds. It also powers every other axle, allowing for grades up to 7% (which is greater than the typical 4% maximum grade for steel-wheel high speed strains). It has solid acceleration both for speeding up and slowing down (deceleration). It has a maximum speed of 220 mph and an average operating speed of up around 178 mph in lines in Germany where it is used in semi-mountainous regions. I understand the LA-Vegas route bypasses the more mountainous areas, but it still is going to pass through a lot of hilly and curvy terrain (it's not Kansas).

Thanks for the link to the DEIS. Unfortunately they did not go through the normal EIS process of evaluating every possible technology possible for this route. Typically in the first round of technology selection, you'll see 8-12 options -- most are eliminated in the first round as too costly or unproven. Instead, the developer said it's either going to be 125 mph DMU or 150 mph EMU HSR and went from there. 220 mph was never studied, nor was 280 mph mag-lev, 110 mph diesel, ect...

I do find it interesting they are considering 125 mph diesel though. Most of the 125 mph options I have seen are for high speed monorail or "American mag-lev" with on-board linear induction motors powered by overhead, electrified catenary cables. Which manufacturer produces the 125 mph DMU's? Are they from Spain?

This DEIS has a lot of excessive paperwork and not enough specific information on the options considered. it's without detailed graphics and explanations of costs and benefits. They are only considering one potential stop between Victorville and Las Vegas, instead of the normal process of considering every potential stop and thinning it down from there. Hopefully the Final EIS will be far better, this DEIS is the worse I've ever seen. Thanks again for hunting it down for us!
Actually the part from Victorville to Las Vegas if it follows the Interstate ROW, which it will, has rather gradual grades. The area has scattered mountains throughout, but the road follows the smoothest section of that part of the desert and shouldn't be much trouble for any EMU. That said I would love a higher speed. I sent them an email asking why leave it to just 150mph and they said

"FRA has not yet adopted its regulations for speeds greater than 150 mph, but
when they do, as and when needed, speeds could be higher in the future. The
family of EMU trains that we have selected is similar to trains running in
Europe and China at speeds up to about 350 km/hr (220 mph); and the
particular train set that we have tentatively selected already has been
certified to 300 km/hr (186 mph), which is the top speed of most TGV lines.

It should be noted that the 150 mph speed we have selected for the initial
years delivers highly competitive travel times and significantly reduces
energy consumption."

Which brings the debate of FRA into question again.
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  #85  
Old Posted Apr 4, 2010, 3:35 PM
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Originally Posted by nequidnimis View Post
You're talking about the train with the cracked axles, right?

http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/s.../browse/7.html
But hasn't this issue been resolved with the newest trains?
http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/s.../browse/7.html
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Last edited by SnyderBock; Apr 4, 2010 at 3:49 PM.
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  #86  
Old Posted Apr 4, 2010, 4:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SnyderBock View Post
But hasn't this issue been resolved with the newest trains?
http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/s.../browse/7.html
I doubt these have been delivered yet. Time will tell how they fare in service. Meanwhile:

Quote:
Whilst Thalys trains are permitted to operate at 300 km/h on high speed lines in Belgium, DB's ICE3s remain restricted to 250 km/h amid concerns over damage caused by excessive downforce and flying ballast.
http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/s...r-is-born.html

Last edited by nequidnimis; Apr 4, 2010 at 4:14 PM.
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  #87  
Old Posted Apr 4, 2010, 4:12 PM
nequidnimis nequidnimis is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dl3000 View Post
"FRA has not yet adopted its regulations for speeds greater than 150 mph, but
when they do, as and when needed, speeds could be higher in the future. The
family of EMU trains that we have selected is similar to trains running in
Europe and China at speeds up to about 350 km/hr (220 mph); and the
particular train set that we have tentatively selected already has been
certified to 300 km/hr (186 mph), which is the top speed of most TGV lines.

It should be noted that the 150 mph speed we have selected for the initial
years delivers highly competitive travel times and significantly reduces
energy consumption."
Good to hear they seem to be headed in the direction of 150 mph. The 90 minute trip time will be a lot more effective at getting people out of their cars than the 116 minute trip time.

On a different subject, I recall solar farms in the Mojave desert are on hold due to environmentalists' opposition to the construction of new power lines in the desert. I wonder if there will be any environmental opposition to the catenaries.
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  #88  
Old Posted Apr 4, 2010, 4:43 PM
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i think they included some of the alternative options in the draft eis just for the sake of comparison - i dont think they ever had any intention of going with demus. theyve been saying their trains will go 150 mph for some time.

its nice to hear that the trains will be able to go faster should regulations and/or further infrastructure investment allow

the catenaries are a hell of a lot shorter/smaller than those transmission lines so hopefully the environmentalists realize that this project is beneficial to the environment overall.
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Last edited by northbay; Apr 4, 2010 at 6:09 PM.
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  #89  
Old Posted Apr 4, 2010, 6:03 PM
nequidnimis nequidnimis is offline
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hopefully the environmentalists realize that this project if beneficial to the environment overall.
Solar farms were beneficial to the environment as well. The "overall" adjective can be a sticking point.
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  #90  
Old Posted Apr 4, 2010, 8:08 PM
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I fear that sometimes environmentalists are just NIMBYs in sheep's clothing...
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  #91  
Old Posted Apr 4, 2010, 9:29 PM
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I fear that sometimes environmentalists are just NIMBYs in sheep's clothing...
They are certainly a decisive voice in any infrastructure debate and need to be brought on-board early.
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  #92  
Old Posted Apr 4, 2010, 9:45 PM
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Like many NIMBY's with a pride filled and overconfident pinch of technical knowledge, many environmentalists are also bandwagonists who have a trick bag of instigative talking points but really don't know what they are talking about.
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  #93  
Old Posted Apr 4, 2010, 11:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nequidnimis View Post
Solar farms were beneficial to the environment as well. The "overall" adjective can be a sticking point.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hammersklavier View Post
I fear that sometimes environmentalists are just NIMBYs in sheep's clothing...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Busy Bee View Post
Like many NIMBY's with a pride filled and overconfident pinch of technical knowledge, many environmentalists are also bandwagonists who have a trick bag of instigative talking points but really don't know what they are talking about.
*facepalm*

So far, I have heard nothing of environmentalists going against a high speed rail initiative. Environmentalists were against solar power because they would have to use all of the water going into various desert oasis's that were already heavily taxed. It is believed that a few species of endangered animals would go outright extinct if those water sources were drained.

Environmentalists I have heard from at UNLV were all for solar power projects, but they viewed the extinction of a species as being too high a cost and wanted water to be pumped from further north instead of draining those pools.

NIMBYism will likely be a problem at some point, but don't take legitimate environmentalists and accuse them of being simple Nimby's when they have very real concerns. When the high speed rail system requires two thousand acre feet of water per year, you will likely start hearing more from environmentalists. Until then, I have heard nothing in the way of complaints against HSR in Nevada.
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  #94  
Old Posted Apr 5, 2010, 1:49 AM
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*facepalm*

So far, I have heard nothing of environmentalists going against a high speed rail initiative. Environmentalists were against solar power because they would have to use all of the water going into various desert oasis's that were already heavily taxed. It is believed that a few species of endangered animals would go outright extinct if those water sources were drained.

Environmentalists I have heard from at UNLV were all for solar power projects, but they viewed the extinction of a species as being too high a cost and wanted water to be pumped from further north instead of draining those pools.

NIMBYism will likely be a problem at some point, but don't take legitimate environmentalists and accuse them of being simple Nimby's when they have very real concerns. When the high speed rail system requires two thousand acre feet of water per year, you will likely start hearing more from environmentalists. Until then, I have heard nothing in the way of complaints against HSR in Nevada.
actually, with regards to ca hsr, it is supported by cali's business, labor and environmental groups.
so sometimes, we CAN all agree on something (well, most of us)

also, important to note there is a difference to being concerned over a certain aspect of a project, and being a nimby. a nimby will oppose a project no matter what (unless it moves out of their backyard). most environmentalists (i consider myself one) support projects that are GOOD for the environment. the sierra club regularly endorses such projects (such as ca hsr or the development of downtown windsor, ca)
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  #95  
Old Posted Apr 5, 2010, 11:05 AM
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Thanks for the link, Krases.

I find this perception that solar power "farms", somehow utilize vast anounts of water, to be ludicrous. I see now that it is only a certain type of solar plant which the douche-bag from solar millenium is promoting--a method which is highly intensive in it's water consumption. Using a water consumptive method in the desert, is assanine--but then having a 20,000 head feed lot of cows, probably uses an unreasonable amount of water.

Quote:
Solar Millennium wants to build a plant that uses water to cool steam into liquid, like a giant swamp cooler. A water-based system would be cheaper and more efficient than the kind of dry cooling many natural gas plants use in the water-deficient desert — fans inside warehouse-like structures.
Why not send it in pipes, underground, where the temp. is cool year-round?

The "water" method sounds wastful anywhere, but in this case I have to wish those alfalfa farmers(whom I'm not really a fan of--people are growing a few pistashios, and pomegranites, just to record some usage of water!), don't let this happen.

Furthermore, what concerns me the most, is that due to people just getting part of the story or whatever--there may now be a widespread belief that all solar power generation plants require large amounts of water to be useful. That is simply not true, and could result in many being turned off of the idea of solar.
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  #96  
Old Posted Apr 5, 2010, 12:33 PM
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I had no idea that the solar plan was so water-intensive. Not a good plan, then (well, duh. What kind of idiot proposes a water-intensive solar farm in the middle of the desert, when that kind of terrain calls for dry farms?).

I was going off of the fact that NIMBYs calling themselves "environmentalists" have sometimes derailed projects in my much wetter part of the world that would have, in the long run, been GOOD for the environment.
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  #97  
Old Posted Apr 5, 2010, 9:14 PM
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We shouldn't be farming in the desert anyway and I totally support shutting down alfalfa farms in the name of producing more power.

The main problem is that while water based solar power uses a resource that we have very little of, it is also the cheapest way of producing power. So cheap, that it can compete with coal on a price level. Other forms of solar power simply don't have the low cost of more water intensive projects.
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  #98  
Old Posted Apr 5, 2010, 10:19 PM
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We shouldn't be farming in the desert anyway and I totally support shutting down alfalfa farms in the name of producing more power.

The main problem is that while water based solar power uses a resource that we have very little of, it is also the cheapest way of producing power. So cheap, that it can compete with coal on a price level. Other forms of solar power simply don't have the low cost of more water intensive projects.
That makes no sense at all--why would you compare solar with coal, just based on the cost of producing power? The cost of coal includes the resulting acceleration of rapid global climate change(from CO2), the health effects of the air pollution, and the destruction of the environment.

Put up photovoltaics in NV--then you can stop claiming the cannard that solar needs water. The even bigger fallacy of logic, is claiming a comparison with coal without mentioning the real costs.

Perhaps it would be best to continue this discussion, here(if you wish):
SSP Solar Power Thread

My apologies to all on this thread, for my role in helping to veer it off course.

. . . Back to the (almost/sort-of) high-speed train proposal! Wasn't 125mph considered high-speed--back in the 1960's?
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  #99  
Old Posted Apr 5, 2010, 10:37 PM
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Ok, I posted my reply on the solar power thread.
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  #100  
Old Posted Apr 12, 2010, 11:42 AM
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lol a private rail line (the only private rail line) running from LA to vegas (or anywhere for that matter), this will be a disaster and bankrupt within 2 years. haven't we learned anything from the monorail in vegas, a private company will probably charge $500 for a one-way ticket
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