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  #121  
Old Posted Jul 30, 2008, 3:34 AM
adam adam is offline
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This 5/6 interchange is a commuter trail. It also serves private companies that drive trucks back and forth carting supplies/goods along it going from Hamilton to Halton and vice versa. It doesn't serve the residents of the area. Its a fine example of the gasoline powered vehicle agenda turning an area into a wasteland. I guess a lot of people see it as a necessary solution..

Heaven forbid you'd have to sit in traffic on the 403 for an extra 5 minutes every day....
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  #122  
Old Posted Jul 30, 2008, 4:27 AM
hamiltonguy hamiltonguy is offline
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Originally Posted by adam View Post
This 5/6 interchange is a commuter trail. It also serves private companies that drive trucks back and forth carting supplies/goods along it going from Hamilton to Halton and vice versa. It doesn't serve the residents of the area. Its a fine example of the gasoline powered vehicle agenda turning an area into a wasteland. I guess a lot of people see it as a necessary solution..

Heaven forbid you'd have to sit in traffic on the 403 for an extra 5 minutes every day....
I used to work up there. Trust me, Interchange or not, its already a wasteland.

Sad to see the resturant and Hotel go though.
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  #123  
Old Posted Jul 30, 2008, 8:35 AM
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fastcarsfreedom fastcarsfreedom is offline
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Again, perhaps I wasn't clear enough--improvements to that corridor were planned when I was a child--as in, there was next to no sprawl in the area, unless you consider the Drive-In Theater and the Gulf station that was on the corner at the time to be sprawl. People have been killed and maimed in accidents at the corner for years--as they were at the York Road crossing at the bottom of the cut--but again, those facts ought to be ignorned so that a square argument can be forced into a round reality and the anti-Flamborough, anti-suburb, anti-car purity of this thread can be maintained. Since the interchange will be controlled-access, REDUCING the ingress/egress points of most businesses in that area, I fail to see how it "serves" these stores--which were planned/built after the highway proposal was finalized.
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  #124  
Old Posted Jul 30, 2008, 9:17 AM
markbarbera markbarbera is offline
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't there significant opposition to Highway 6 corridor improvements from Flamborough residents, which is why the corridor improvements have been so long-delayed? I seem to recall a 'No Highway 406' movement in the area some time ago, where residents were resistant to the idea of introducing controlled access divided highway elements to highway 6.
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  #125  
Old Posted Jul 30, 2008, 10:53 AM
Millstone Millstone is offline
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't there significant opposition to Highway 6 corridor improvements from Flamborough residents, which is why the corridor improvements have been so long-delayed? I seem to recall a 'No Highway 406' movement in the area some time ago, where residents were resistant to the idea of introducing controlled access divided highway elements to highway 6.
I don't have that information. Although I do have video of Flamboroughians being very spiteful towards St. Marys, in a similar vein.

It is common to have opposition to freeways... research Jane Jacobs and Toronto for more info.
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  #126  
Old Posted Jul 30, 2008, 10:59 AM
Millstone Millstone is offline
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Originally Posted by adam View Post
This 5/6 interchange is a commuter trail. It also serves private companies that drive trucks back and forth carting supplies/goods along it going from Hamilton to Halton and vice versa. It doesn't serve the residents of the area. Its a fine example of the gasoline powered vehicle agenda turning an area into a wasteland. I guess a lot of people see it as a necessary solution..

Heaven forbid you'd have to sit in traffic on the 403 for an extra 5 minutes every day....
What the hell dude. Those private companies, which use a certain fraction of the roadway, deliver goods and services for you, the consumer, to use at a reasonable time and cost. A lot of trucks use the road because there's no four-oh-something highway between Hamilton and Waterloo/Wellington. If the highway gets bypassed with a freeway to the west, then the existing road can be downloaded to Hamilton like all the others were in 1998, and you can have your non-congested road.

Hwy 6 between Waterdown and Morriston and needs to be bypassed completely; the traffic is too great for an 80 km/h 5-lane expressway with signals. The original 2-lane alignment in Puslinch and Morriston is good for nostalgia, but has long outlived its usefulness.

I don't know what you're on about, but good luck.
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  #127  
Old Posted Jul 30, 2008, 12:05 PM
raisethehammer raisethehammer is offline
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Originally Posted by Millstone View Post
What the hell dude. Those private companies, which use a certain fraction of the roadway, deliver goods and services for you, the consumer, to use at a reasonable time and cost. A lot of trucks use the road because there's no four-oh-something highway between Hamilton and Waterloo/Wellington. If the highway gets bypassed with a freeway to the west, then the existing road can be downloaded to Hamilton like all the others were in 1998, and you can have your non-congested road.

Hwy 6 between Waterdown and Morriston and needs to be bypassed completely; the traffic is too great for an 80 km/h 5-lane expressway with signals. The original 2-lane alignment in Puslinch and Morriston is good for nostalgia, but has long outlived its usefulness.

I don't know what you're on about, but good luck.

I'm still waiting for you to get to the part about Flambasterdas funding the entire thing.
Fastcars - please don't insult my intelligence. This interchange AND all the sprawl has been in planning for decades. Don't make it sound like the sprawl just popped out of nowhere much to everyone's surprise.
Again, who is funding all this mess?? That is the original topic. Some stiff at city hall told one of the forumers that Flamborough was 100% financially autonomous and that's just plain wrong.
The funny part is about them 'bailing out downtown Hamilton' as the reason for amalgamation.
Yea, all that tax revenue is really going to bail us out. They might be able to pave a couple km of roadway downtown, if that.
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  #128  
Old Posted Jul 30, 2008, 2:05 PM
coalminecanary coalminecanary is offline
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Originally Posted by fastcarsfreedom View Post
Again, perhaps I wasn't clear enough--improvements to that corridor were planned when I was a child--as in, there was next to no sprawl in the area, unless you consider the Drive-In Theater and the Gulf station that was on the corner at the time to be sprawl. People have been killed and maimed in accidents at the corner for years--as they were at the York Road crossing at the bottom of the cut--but again, those facts ought to be ignorned so that a square argument can be forced into a round reality and the anti-Flamborough, anti-suburb, anti-car purity of this thread can be maintained. Since the interchange will be controlled-access, REDUCING the ingress/egress points of most businesses in that area, I fail to see how it "serves" these stores--which were planned/built after the highway proposal was finalized.
You are twisting this debate. First of all, thank you very much, I grew up near concession 6 and lived most of my life in or around waterdown - continuing to drive into and through the area for commuting and to visit my parents and grandmother who all lived, until last year, in the heart of waterdown. I am intimately familiar with the traffic flow at clappisons since it was part of my daily commute for years. You know as well as I do that the 5/6 interchange is not a bottleneck there. The main bottlenecks are downtown waterdown on 5, and the two lane arrangement at the 401 end of 6.

Second, this is not anti-flamborough sentiment. This is anti-money-wasting. I know that highway six is a major transportation corridor for goods (and commuters) linking the 403 and 401 (and beyond). But the reality is that the throughput of that intersection was and still is actually quite stellar. That light might be the smartest traffic light in all of North America. It keeps a huge amount of traffic flowing smoothly by sensing not only the presence of cars in certain lanes but also the number of cars, and times each cycle to accommodate the volume at that instant. The only time you have to wait more than one or two cycles at that light is if there is a major disruption due to an accident or construction.

Your smoke and mirrors discussion of moving goods for everyone's benefit makes sense -- until you take into account the fact that highway 5 is NOT a major goods thoroughfare. Highway 5 is not, should not, and if flamborough residents (rightfully) have their way, WILL not become a major highway. Waterdown's retail district was not built to accommodate a multi lane highway through the middle of it, and any residents and business there are rightfully against expansion of highway 5. So they planned to expand Parkside and (rightfully) the residents are agianst that too.

So on paper, the reasoning may be "building volume of traffic", but we have to take a logical look at what is driving that traffic!

For the majority of truck traffic, the current system is working just fine - green light along 6 until people show up on 5, and then just a long enough light to let those people through before switching back to green on 6. The only reason to justify an interchange there is if both streets have a large enough traffic volume. A high-volume 6 crossing a lower-volume 5 is not a good enough reason to put an interchange in. So there must be some anticipation of a spurt in volume on 5.

Meanwhile, there is very limited residential west on 5, and most of the residential development east on 5 (through to the east edge of Waterdown) is already filled in. New developments are much further east or further north and will receive only limited benefit from an interchange at clappisons.

Where is all of this additional traffic expected on 5 coming from and going to? The 403 is the major east-west for through traffic, so we must assume that the new traffic must have a destination in or around Waterdown. As far as I know, there are no major industrial or condo developments happening up there. But there is a whole hell of a lot of big box retail development.

No matter which way you slice it, the creation of retail-bound traffic is going to be a HUGE driver of traffic along highway 5 over the next few years.

So, no, the current business owners will not benefit from the interchange. And no, the interchange is not being build to plop cars directly into a canadian tire parking lot. But you absolutely cannot claim that the big box development there isn't a major driver of new traffic along 5- if not THE biggest driver.

Which is why my simplified statement is that they are building an interchange to service big box retail.

And I don't know what agenda you think I am trying to further? Since the city is on the hook for 50% of that work, I guess my agenda is to stop wasting taxpayers' money.

Residents of Flamborough (rightfully) complain that they have no transit options. So one solution might be to spend that chunk of cash (that's about to be wasted on an overpass) on a high speed link to downtown Hamilton instead. Why don't we work to relieve the traffic volume instead of building monstrous structures to accommodate it? This is just an idea - I'm sure there are other reasonable solutions.

Anyway, I'm passionate about this kind of thing because I think it sends a clear message about our twisted priorities. Look at the work they are doing there.. blowing through the escarpment to widen 6, going to build these huge ramp structures - meanwhile we are told time and again that widening the measly hunter tunnel is "impossible".

We are building roads toward a dead end. Man... gas prices are going to reach a point where people simply cannot afford to hop in their car and drive the distances they do now. Getting in the car will become a conscious decision because it will simply be too expensive. We are going to be kicking ourselves for overbuilding the roads where it's not necessary, while we neglect the dense parts of the city and we neglect to plan ahead for the pending need for alternatives such as rail.

Sorry to get off topic but it just makes me furious to see such waste.
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  #129  
Old Posted Jul 30, 2008, 2:17 PM
adam adam is offline
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Originally Posted by Millstone View Post
What the hell dude. Those private companies, which use a certain fraction of the roadway, deliver goods and services for you, the consumer, to use at a reasonable time and cost. A lot of trucks use the road because there's no four-oh-something highway between Hamilton and Waterloo/Wellington. If the highway gets bypassed with a freeway to the west, then the existing road can be downloaded to Hamilton like all the others were in 1998, and you can have your non-congested road.

Hwy 6 between Waterdown and Morriston and needs to be bypassed completely; the traffic is too great for an 80 km/h 5-lane expressway with signals. The original 2-lane alignment in Puslinch and Morriston is good for nostalgia, but has long outlived its usefulness.

I don't know what you're on about, but good luck.
On the contrary, one of the major reasons for congestion at this interchange is trucks climbing the incline well below the posted speed limit.... with the previous available 2 lanes, it would hold everyone else up. Think carefully about how publicly funded roads subsidize private companies namely transport companies. Private citizens pay the same gas tax as they do. And what if I choose to NOT buy the goods provided by the Acme private company... do my taxes get lowered?

Last edited by adam; Jul 30, 2008 at 2:36 PM.
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  #130  
Old Posted Jul 30, 2008, 2:18 PM
markbarbera markbarbera is offline
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Originally Posted by Millstone View Post
I don't have that information. Although I do have video of Flamboroughians being very spiteful towards St. Marys, in a similar vein.
They realy do seem to have a chip on their shoulder, almost a self-righteous indignation for perceived wrongs on many fronts. Oddly enough, they seem to be the only group among the amalgamated city with this kind of knee-jerk confrontational style.
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  #131  
Old Posted Jul 30, 2008, 3:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Millstone View Post
what?
I had 3 windows open at the same time and post some ramblings to the wrong one.
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  #132  
Old Posted Jul 30, 2008, 3:35 PM
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The highway 6 upgrade from the 403 to just north of Parkside is due to the high accident rate for that stretch of road. It is the same reason that the rest of the road was widened to 5 lanes. There was too much traffic volume for the size of road. The traffic needed to be separated from both direction and turn vehicles.
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  #133  
Old Posted Jul 30, 2008, 4:10 PM
coalminecanary coalminecanary is offline
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To clarify, I do think that the widening of 6 make sense (for safety and to better accommodate slow-climbing trucks). It's the cloverleaf at clappisons that kills me.
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  #134  
Old Posted Jul 30, 2008, 6:45 PM
Millstone Millstone is offline
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Originally Posted by adam View Post
On the contrary, one of the major reasons for congestion at this interchange is trucks climbing the incline well below the posted speed limit.... with the previous available 2 lanes, it would hold everyone else up. Think carefully about how publicly funded roads subsidize private companies namely transport companies. Private citizens pay the same gas tax as they do. And what if I choose to NOT buy the goods provided by the Acme private company... do my taxes get lowered?
How is that on the contrary? I support the widening of Hwy 6 to accomodate a truck climbing lane.
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  #135  
Old Posted Jul 30, 2008, 7:12 PM
adam adam is offline
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How does this help businesses or residents? Was there any research done about how this work will provide extra tax $$ to the city?
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  #136  
Old Posted Jul 30, 2008, 8:19 PM
highwater highwater is offline
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Silly Adam! Only progressive things like two-way conversions and LRT need to prove that they'll increase tax revenues. Widening highways and building expressways are faith-based.
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  #137  
Old Posted Jul 30, 2008, 8:31 PM
brett.electrician brett.electrician is offline
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I want to clarify my postion on a few items in this thread. First off I completely understand the difference in cost of urban vs rural. anyone with common sense, can see that. Also, beleive whats is done is done and people should try to make the best of it. It seemed that this was a very one sided debate. I got the idea that Hamilton has done no wrong for the last 30 years and all the problems associated with the city are the fault of the urban residents. This I do not believe regardless of how strongly held some of the opinions on here are. Flar commented that im better off the believe these fourm members then random employees of the city. Problem, the employees i spoke to were not random in the least bit. They are family and friends of family that have been with the city for a long time. I agree with some aspects of what has been said here, mainly suburban style development is definetly the wrong approach.

btw I may live in Victoria, but i grew up in Carlisle, hence my interest in this thread :-)
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  #138  
Old Posted Jul 30, 2008, 9:41 PM
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fastcarsfreedom fastcarsfreedom is offline
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Quote
Flambasterdas

Quote
self-righteous indignation for perceived wrongs

Quote
knee-jerk confrontational style

Quote
They realy do seem to have a chip on their shoulder

How silly of me to think that there was an anti-Flamborough sentiment in this thread--I really don't know what I was thinking.

Quote
Fastcars - please don't insult my intelligence

Are you serious? How did I insult your intelligence? I am railing against people who use their passion as an excuse to make unfounded claims merely to support their own viewpoints. This interchange construction is in no way being built to "service" big box retail--that is a baseless and irresponsible claim.

Lastly, for the final time, BOTH Hwy 6 and Hwy 5 are provincially significant on their current alignments through Clappison's Corner--otherwise one, or both, would've been downloaded to the municipality. While Highway 6 carries the bulk of the traffic through this intersection, Highway 5 also carries non-local traffic through the area--one of the reasons the Peters Corners to Clappison's Corners section was not downloaded in 1998. The entire stretch from 401 to 403 was colloquially known as the "killer highway" back when I was a kid--a name it earned over the years, owing to the numerous fatal accidents--anything that reduces the interaction of traffic travelling in different directions on Highway 6 is a good thing. Fair to say, this isn't merely about 'serving' sprawl--but also saving lives.
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  #139  
Old Posted Jul 30, 2008, 9:47 PM
adam adam is offline
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Brett, I get paid through government... does that make me an expert in all things? Nope.
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  #140  
Old Posted Jul 30, 2008, 10:05 PM
highwater highwater is offline
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I am railing against people who use their passion as an excuse to make unfounded claims merely to support their own viewpoints.
So are we!
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