Urban entertainment districts: Blocks where no one has fun

[TarHeelJ]

Originally Posted by jtk1519

I will make another point. Had VP been built the way it was designed, then the article might be more right IMO. VP would be a huge glossy monolith that would feel like an island. But perhaps the urban gods intervened and VP was not built the way it was originally designed. That has allowed for what we're starting to see and that is the unfinished lots being occupied (or at least plans for it) by some more human scaled and less ultra high end developments.

My only real point is that it's a work in progress. The first stages of VP broke ground more than a decade ago and in another decade the area wont look anything like it does now. The irony is that because of the lack of success of some of the earlier developments coupled with the economic downturn, what VP looks like in 10 years might very well be a helluva lot better than what was originally planned.

It's nice to read posts made by someone who has first-hand knowledge of the subject. I wish more members would defer to those who know what they are talking about rather than going by something that have read or heard.

[mhays]

That doesn't address my point very much. Victory will always be between the 77+rail barrier, the arena, and highway 366. I'm guessing the low-density apartments will remain on the east. The arena might always have a ton of parking around it, even if more goes into garages. There's a lot of vacant land in the immediate area, even if much/most/all of it has plans. Downtown Dallas will take a long time to fill in toward the freeway, if it ever does. Further, the built portions of VP itself aren't terribly dense.

Maybe frame of reference is the difference here. "Dense" by some people's standards isn't necessarily dense by other people's.

Regardless, my comment was related to the level of population relative to an urban entertainment district. While people might come from all over to visit the district, the number within an easy walk can be a big factor. If the answer is a few thousand the result is very different than if it was 10,000 for example.

[CITYofDREAMS]

Originally Posted by ChrisLA

The Americana is another one over in Glendale designed by the same person. Also Victoria Gardens out in the Inland Empire in Rancho Cucamonga. There are a few more in the LA Metro that are quite successful but I can't think of all of them right now.

City Walk and LA Live?

[rs913]

Are the Americana and the Grove really in the same category? Seems like the focus is more on shopping and eating (as in "ladies who lunch", not "night on the town"), as opposed to bars and entertainment.

[miketoronto]

Originally Posted by mhays

Regardless, my comment was related to the level of population relative to an urban entertainment district. While people might come from all over to visit the district, the number within an easy walk can be a big factor. If the answer is a few thousand the result is very different than if it was 10,000 for example.

The number within walking distance is not a big factor at all, as people do not party every night, and entertainment districts do not rely on the local population, but rather a region wide population.

I really do not get why people are so bend over local populations? Local populations do not support these destination entertainment areas, or even the ones located along streets.

[BevoLJ]

From my experience I'd disagree Mike. The places I have lived like Austin, Boston, NOLA, LA and London the most successful entertainment districts that depend on two things being very near and in great abundance. Students and tourist. The only real exceptions I can think of (from my experience so not talking NYC) are a couple parts of London. But very few cities have anything like the Tube that can bring so many to Piccadilly Circus. And even then many you see in that station on a Saturday night are from the West End or not to far.

Most of the patrons that the establishments in stronger areas depend on, that last, live or are staying near by. Bourbon Street in NOLA and Sixth Street in Austin certainly don't depend on the suburbs. Most of those you find there live near there or are staying in hotels near there.

[miketoronto]

Originally Posted by BevoLJ

From my experience I'd disagree Mike. The places I have lived like Austin, Boston, NOLA, LA and London the most successful entertainment districts that depend on two things being very near and in great abundance. Students and tourist. The only real exceptions I can think of (from my experience so not talking NYC) are a couple parts of London. But very few cities have anything like the Tube that can bring so many to Piccadilly Circus. And even then many you see in that station on a Saturday night are from the West End or not to far.

Most of the patrons that the establishments in stronger areas depend on, that last, live or are staying near by. Bourbon Street in NOLA and Sixth Street in Austin certainly don't depend on the suburbs. Most of those you find there live near there or are staying in hotels near there.

I would have to disagree.

-1: One of the first things my professor taught us in retail class was that local populations do not support retail and entertainment districts. These places rely on metropolitan wide draws for the most part.


-2: I guess all the people that drive in and fill up all the parking lots and crowd onto the buses going back to the suburbs and other city neighbourhoods from these entertainment districts are just an illusion?

The following is the from the Downtown Austin Alliance

-9,000 people live in downtown Austin.
-On weekends over 100,000 patrons come downtown for entertainment.

That is not just the local downtown population or even the surrounding inner neighbourhoods.

[BevoLJ]

Lol. Spoken like someone who has never been to any of the places I mentioned. Please don't tell someone from Austin that there are only 9,000 people in Downtown as an example of how local population are not patrons for a street like Sixth Street. Especially someone who works in the live music industry. Quite the pretty use of stats to bury your head in. Clearly stated by you to disguise the 50,000+ students a few blocks north of Sixth Street plus all the hotels between 6th and the lake and on the south side of the lake. That is who makes up most of the customers on Sixth.

Do people from other parts of Austin visit downtown on the weekends? Of course they do. But not for the entertainment on Sixth Street unless there is a show they just have to catch or they have friends in town for a visit (tourist). Most Austinites go downtown for Second Street, Rainey, Market District, or other parts of downtown to catch specific shows, event or to socialize. They avoid Sixth like a plague. A street like that gets tired for someone living in that city very fast unless they are students. It is no different in NOLA, or any of the other cities I have lived in and am familiar with. Though I admit London is different for obvious reasons. And there are many cities I am not familiar with like Dallas or your Toronto and I won't pretend to suggest what is best for them and their entertainment street or who is the main patrons of those streets. Because I don't know them. So please don't tell me who we rely on for Sixth or Bourbon Street. Because those I do know. Obviously better than you. And from my experience with them I am of the opinion the most successful entertainment streets rely on students and tourist. Not suburban populations.

Look at last night and tonight. Last night there was an estimated 180,000 on Sixth Street, and tonight that is expected to exceed 260,000 for the ROT Rally. Probably (I have no solid numbers on this) 80-90% of those aren't even from Austin. During the school year we rely on the students and tourist, during the summer we rely on the big festivals and music to bring in the tourist.

Edit: I was thinking on some of the suburban population that do visit Sixth, but those are all students. And that proves my point (to me at least) even further. During the school year there are well over 125,000 students in the Austin area, not including the 50,000 downtown at UT or the 4,400 at St Eds in South Austin. However even though there is well over twice as many students outside of downtown as there are at UT downtown, UT students outnumber them all combined any given night from late August to May. Which proves to me how important that local (downtown) population of students is.

[miketoronto]

Well of course students are going to go clubbing and not 65 year olds. But I am sure many of the students live in the suburbs.

And secondly as you stated, there are other areas downtown that attract people from other areas of the city, which made my point perfectly. And that is you need people coming in from all areas to patronize the different areas of downtown.
That is what "downtown" is. Downtown is not a "local neighbourhood". If it is, then it is not a downtown.

And if you like think something like VP in Dallas is relying on nearby residents, you are wrong. These developments if you know anything about Cordish, are designed to be regional destinations.

[Segun]

Originally Posted by BevoLJ

From my experience I'd disagree Mike. The places I have lived like Austin, Boston, NOLA, LA and London the most successful entertainment districts that depend on two things being very near and in great abundance. Students and tourist. =

Chicago is an exception to this also, as most tourists go to River North/Rush Street, maybe a few to Wrigleyville, but almost none go to Wicker Park. Students scatter all over the place also, but Wicker Park once again gets mostly ignored.

[Owlhorn]

Originally Posted by mhays

That doesn't address my point very much. Victory will always be between the 77+rail barrier, the arena, and highway 366. I'm guessing the low-density apartments will remain on the east. The arena might always have a ton of parking around it, even if more goes into garages. There's a lot of vacant land in the immediate area, even if much/most/all of it has plans. Downtown Dallas will take a long time to fill in toward the freeway, if it ever does. Further, the built portions of VP itself aren't terribly dense.

.

I think the failure of VP is way exaggerated because people think of Victory Plaza as Victory Park and they always look to the House condo tower. No one ever talks about how busy the south end of the project is. Especially as a destination at night. Daytime failure do to isolation; Maybe, but that's not the whole picture.

I also think its not that far from success as a whole. At the same time that it has large development going on, it is being encroached upon by significant projects from he east and west. I think the success of the Lower Oak Lawn is certainly a factor that people from outside(or even inside Dallas) for that matter, don't know much about. For the last few years, that area has quietly manicured its streets and has drawn a good amount of urban development and is even growing a little bar and restaurant scene along Hi-Line Dr. Hi-Line drive is the same street as Victory Ave, just two blocks west. This is why the Block F development as well as the Katy Trail link are vital to Victory Park. There's a great chance that Victory is saved by the residential surge to its west, not its east which might as well be a freeway. Hell, if TxDOT would get off the Tollway and get busy with Project Pegasus, you might find VP as the Knox to LOL's Henderson. Especially if the Harwood development up the hill actually takes place.

[BevoLJ]

Originally Posted by miketoronto

Well of course students are going to go clubbing and not 65 year olds. But I am sure many of the students live in the suburbs.

And secondly as you stated, there are other areas downtown that attract people from other areas of the city, which made my point perfectly. And that is you need people coming in from all areas to patronize the different areas of downtown.
That is what "downtown" is. Downtown is not a "local neighbourhood". If it is, then it is not a downtown.

And if you like think something like VP in Dallas is relying on nearby residents, you are wrong. These developments if you know anything about Cordish, are designed to be regional destinations.

Are we talking about downtowns or entertainment districts? Because the two can be very different things even if one exist inside another.

[mhays]

Originally Posted by miketoronto

The number within walking distance is not a big factor at all, as people do not party every night, and entertainment districts do not rely on the local population, but rather a region wide population.

I really do not get why people are so bend over local populations? Local populations do not support these destination entertainment areas, or even the ones located along streets.

As I said, it's a factor. With retail, nightlife districts, etc., it helps to have a lot of types of people. Some districts have more neighborhood customer base than others.

Even in a "regional" focused district, not every nightclub draws primarily from the whole metro. You can mix in more dining day and night, different types of bars vs. dance places, etc.

[PhillyRising]

Originally Posted by McBane

Philadelphia has a Cordish developed Xfinity Live in our stadium district in South Philly. For what it is, it works. It provides a "suburban town center" entertainment experience for the suburbanites who come down for games and concerts.

But it's far enough from downtown and surrounded by parking lots (that were already there to accommodate the stadium) that nobody confuses it as being part of downtown or trying to mimic an authentic Philadelphia neighborhood. Since there isn't really a neighborhood in that area to begin with, Xfinity Live didn't have the challenge of trying to weave it into the existing urban fabric.

Moreover, I don't think anyone either expects Xfinity Live to spur development, so for as long as I can see, it will exist, along with the stadiums, in its own little universe.

Philadelphia has several "entertainment" areas that the Xfinity is just another one added to the list.

Olde City...Center City....University City...Manayunk...South Street....have all been destinations for people looking to go out.

Add Passyunk Ave in South Philly to the list and I am impressed with The Piazza in Northern Liberties as a place to go. I was there last Sunday afternoon and the crowd was pretty young and people all over the place. In fact...I think if I moved into the city that Northern Liberties would be at or near the top of my list as a place to live.

Xfinity Live was really created to snag the people who just got back into their car and headed home after leaving their event in the Sports Complex. I [personally doubt I will ever hang out there after a game...I prefer going to Center City instead.