Rapid Transit

[ScreamingViking]

Originally Posted by SteelTown

Transportation minister Glen Murray will meet with Hamilton city council soon, said McMeekin, who is also the Minister of Community and Social Services. And those meetings will help determine how much Hamilton receives, and for what.

“We don’t want to spell out something that’s not in keeping with what the minister and council will arrive at,” McMeekin said.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/hamilt...he-l-1.2628955

I see the Lord Mayor is continuing to spell it out this way :
The Rapid Ready plan, Bratina said, outlines that the city will grow its ridership with BRT and eventually implement LRT. He expects the discussions to revolve around “rapid transit which sometime in the future will lead to LRT.”

[CaptainKirk]

Who would "own", or operate a B-line LRT? HSR or Metrolinx?

[bigguy1231]

They still haven't told the city what our share will be. City council will not vote on anything until that is spelled out. Then there is the issue of just how much longer the present government will be in power. This whole plan will be dropped if the Liberals lose the next election.

[matt602]

I have almost no belief that it's going to happen any more. The lack of leadership has taken it's toll and 3-4 lower city councilors aren't going to be enough to push forward without 100% funding. It really is going to come down to 100% funding or it doesn't happen at all.

[drpgq]

Originally Posted by Dr Awesomesauce

All those pushing for BRT because it's 'cheaper' and less 'disruptive' will spaz out once they realise it also requires dedicated lanes. Sta-tus quo! Sta-tus quo! Yay Hamilton!

Sorry.

Exactly. This is a pretty bad day for Hamilton. It is telling that Mississauga actually got the L (strangely in the Spec article I read this morning that point wasn't made). Council hasn't done us any favours on this issue either. I'm not really looking forward to paying for other regions's transit systems.

[thistleclub]

The government will doubtless be quick to point out that Metrolinx will continue to invest in Hamilton. It cannot be entirely accidental that Minister Murray assigned a $2 billion price tag to rail line purchase/upgrade while promoting the $44 million James North train station. (The city’s share of expenses like new rolling stock and operating costs for all-day two-way GO is, as yet, unclear.)

Using the standard Liberal semantics, there’s $2 billion in local spending that was made possible by partnership with the City of Hamilton. Local taxpayers reaping the benefit of investing in local spans of Ontario’s transit infrastructure.

I expect that we’ll get the requisite conversation about sitting down at the table to make LRT/BRT partnership possible, and that buys the province time. Even without the new requirement of a “rigorous business plan” the 10-year implementation time frame also grants the government a fair bit of latitude.

And failing that, MTO/Metrolinx might throw money at enhancements to highways/regional roads as well as cycling infrastructure. That outcome seems just as likely as Hamilton paying in but getting nothing.

Again, however, there are more immediate hurdles. The budget needs to get passed, the additional revenue streams need to be formalized and produce the anticipated funding levels, and the Second Wave priorities will still have to survive the Big Move's 2016 strategic review. Then we'll see what those 11th hour campaign promises are really worth.

[HillStreetBlues]

Originally Posted by Dr Awesomesauce

All those pushing for BRT because it's 'cheaper' and less 'disruptive' will spaz out once they realise it also requires dedicated lanes. Sta-tus quo! Sta-tus quo! Yay Hamilton!

Sorry.

You’re right: that’s the problem. If Hamilton was composed of serious transit advocates discussing what type of rapid transit would best serve the city, I think that BRT would be the decision we may opt for, considering we can extend it to many more areas of the city. Realistically, I think a lot of Hamiltonians hear “Bus Rapid Transit” and just think “bus.” Real BRT on the A and B Lines would be wonderful. It would be disruptive. It would have dedicated lanes; signal priority at each and every intersection; stations with platforms at door level; fares paid before entering the vehicle; entry by any door… But you’re right that it’s not what we would get. We’d get something watered down, which is the best argument for LRT over BRT here in Hamilton, that LRT is inherently more difficult to make crummy.

[Beedok]

Why would fares be paid before entering the vehicle? That's certainly not the case with Ottawa's transitway. Entry at any door isn't a transitway thing in Ottawa either, it's dependent on the type of bus and whether it has Presto-swipe things at the other doors.

Lastly, wouldn't 'door level' just be sidewalk level?

[flar]

Originally Posted by HillStreetBlues

You’re right: that’s the problem. If Hamilton was composed of serious transit advocates discussing what type of rapid transit would best serve the city, I think that BRT would be the decision we may opt for, considering we can extend it to many more areas of the city. Realistically, I think a lot of Hamiltonians hear “Bus Rapid Transit” and just think “bus.” Real BRT on the A and B Lines would be wonderful. It would be disruptive. It would have dedicated lanes; signal priority at each and every intersection; stations with platforms at door level; fares paid before entering the vehicle; entry by any door… But you’re right that it’s not what we would get. We’d get something watered down, which is the best argument for LRT over BRT here in Hamilton, that LRT is inherently more difficult to make crummy.

The ONLY reason BRT works in Ottawa is because of the dedicated Transitway where buses get to coast through the city at 80-90km/h with no lights and no bottlenecks. As soon as the buses hit city streets, it is no longer rapid transit and it takes longer than driving your car. Dedicated bus lanes and priority signals don't offset the time spent making stops, and can't entirely mitigate slowdowns from heavy traffic.

[HillStreetBlues]

I know that’s not the case in Ottawa, but it is elsewhere, and there’s no reason it can’t be. Paying fares to access a station area (instead of paying fares on the bus) reduces boarding times, making the whole system quicker and more reliable. That’s also the case with allowing boarding and alighting at all doors. Think about how long it can sometimes take for people to board a bus at only the front door, count out change for the driver or show him their passes or whatever else.

No, not sidewalk level. Most buses have steps up to the door from sidewalk level, and steps up to the cabin. This is why we now have ‘low floor’ buses, buses with ramps for disabled passengers, and kneeling buses. Even for able-bodied passengers, climbing up to the cabin increases boarding times. High floor buses (which avoid some of the disadvantages some low floor models have) can be used at stations, but still allow completely level boarding from a platform.

[HillStreetBlues]

Both of you quoted me and then started talking about Ottawa. When did I say a thing about Ottawa?

I’m not unhappy to argue about the relative merits of LRT and BRT, but I'm not sure that's why this thread is here, and I only brought it up (actually, I didn’t, this time) because someone speculated that BRT might be what we’re getting. I wanted to express my agreement with Dr. Awesomesauce that, even if the decision is BRT, it’s probably not going to be good BRT. I don’t think it’s especially good BRT in downtown Ottawa, as pointed out…

I don’t understand the statement “Dedicated bus lanes and priority signals don't offset the time spent making stops, and can't entirely mitigate slowdowns from heavy traffic.” Don’t all forms of transit have to make stops?

[thistleclub]

Horwath has just pulled the plug: "We do not support this government any longer... We will not vote in favour of this budget."

[flar]

Originally Posted by HillStreetBlues

Both of you quoted me and then started talking about Ottawa. When did I say a thing about Ottawa?

Because Ottawa has an established BRT system. I'm just giving you an example of why BRT would be a waste of time in Hamilton. Unless there is somewhere that a dedicated Transitway can be built (I don't know of anywhere except the rail corridors, which would mean removing the rail).

The B-Line is already BRT. They could spend millions building new platforms and signals, but the bus will not be noticeably faster than it is now. And it will not attract any new riders.

[SteelTown]

NDP won't support the budget. Spring election time.

[HillStreetBlues]

Originally Posted by flar

Because Ottawa has an established BRT system. I'm just giving you an example of why BRT would be a waste of time in Hamilton. Unless there is somewhere that a dedicated Transitway can be built (I don't know of anywhere except the rail corridors, which would mean removing the rail).

The B-Line is already BRT. They could spend millions building new platforms and signals, but the bus will not be noticeably faster than it is now. And it will not attract any new riders.

The B-Line is not BRT in almost any sense. That’s a ridiculous thing to say. It also makes little sense since you seem to think that BRT needs a Transitway. It needs to operate apart from other traffic, but why shouldn’t it be given road space to do that?

If the B Line was properly branded, operating on its own right of way and prioritized signalling, and using stations that allow for fast boarding, it would be appreciably faster than the current service, and able to carry more riders. And, faster and more reliable, of course it will attract new riders.

[bigguy1231]

The whole debate is academic now that the NDP has pulled their support for the Liberals. Chances are we will end up with a PC minority with what the polls are showing now. If that happens the big move will be scrapped and we will all be starting from scratch.

[movingtohamilton]

Originally Posted by bigguy1231

...Chances are we will end up with a PC minority with what the polls are showing now. If that happens the big move will be scrapped and we will all be starting from scratch.

....and some of us will be fighting a Hudak-announced downtown casino, perhaps!

[bigguy1231]

Originally Posted by movingtohamilton

....and some of us will be fighting a Hudak-announced downtown casino, perhaps!

With a Hudak led government that would be the least of our worries.

[flar]

Originally Posted by HillStreetBlues

The B-Line is not BRT in almost any sense. That’s a ridiculous thing to say. It also makes little sense since you seem to think that BRT needs a Transitway. It needs to operate apart from other traffic, but why shouldn’t it be given road space to do that?

If the B Line was properly branded, operating on its own right of way and prioritized signalling, and using stations that allow for fast boarding, it would be appreciably faster than the current service, and able to carry more riders. And, faster and more reliable, of course it will attract new riders.

Are there not currently dedicated bus lanes through downtown? Are the traffic lights no longer synchronized? Does the B-line no longer skip over most of the stops? Do they not already have articulated buses on that route? Isn't Presto implemented in Hamilton?

The only thing missing is 5min frequency. But even in Ottawa doesn't have that frequency on all of its BRT routes.

I'm not sure what else you think BRT entails. How does having stations make boarding faster? There is still a speed limit on Main and King and major limitations on how much traffic signal prioritization can help because traffic already flows freely along Main and King. The bus still has to make stops. BRT is absolutely going to be slower than driving.

Sorry to bring up Ottawa again, but nobody would take BRT in Ottawa without the transitway. For the Transitway parts, trips take about the same time as driving, or are slightly faster. But the system completely breaks down when it hits city streets. That's why Ottawa is spending a billion dollars to build a tunnel and LRT.

[HillStreetBlues]

Originally Posted by flar

Are there not currently dedicated bus lanes through downtown? Are the traffic lights no longer synchronized? Does the B-line no longer skip over most of the stops? Do they not already have articulated buses on that route? Isn't Presto implemented in Hamilton?

The only thing missing is 5min frequency. But even in Ottawa doesn't have that frequency on all of its BRT routes.

I'm not sure what else you think BRT entails. How does having stations make boarding faster? There is still a speed limit on Main and King and major limitations on how much traffic signal prioritization can help because traffic already flows freely along Main and King. The bus still has to make stops. BRT is absolutely going to be slower than driving.

Sorry to bring up Ottawa again, but nobody would take BRT in Ottawa without the transitway. For the Transitway parts, trips take about the same time as driving, or are slightly faster. But the system completely breaks down when it hits city streets. That's why Ottawa is spending a billion dollars to build a tunnel and LRT.

There are not currently dedicated bus lanes through downtown. There is a bus lane for approximately two kilometers, that is open to turning cars (and all kinds of cars, in practice). Do you think that is the same as having transit-only lanes?

The traffic lights are synchronized for car traffic, not for the 10.

Wait a minute…do you think LRT will be “faster than driving”?