HOBOKEN | Hoboken Terminal Redevelopment | FT | 28 + 25 FLOORS

[C.]

A thread to discuss the redevelopment of Hoboken Terminal by NJ Transit. The city and the developer are gridlocked over the heights and density of the new development. It has already been significantly scaled down from the original 75-storey proposal.

Some background information from NY YIMBY and the competing plans for the site.

http://www.yimbynews.com/2014/01/hob...opardized.html

City of Hoboken Plan: http://www.njtransit.com/pdf/HobokenDevelopmentPlan.pdf

NJ Transit Plan: http://www.hobokennj.org/docs/commun...n-11-10-11.pdf

New York YIMBY:

Revised renders of Hoboken Terminal:

Hoboken Terminal -- image from NJ Transit


Hoboken Terminal — image from NJ Transit


Hoboken Terminal — image from NJ Transit[/QUOTE]


Previous plans called for a 75-storey tower.

[gttx]

Originally Posted by CIA

Hoboken Terminal — image from NJ Transit

The 75 story proposal will simply never happen in Hoboken, so there is no need to keep fretting about it.

However, on the other side of the railyards, where you currently see the slip and empty land, we will see some significant height, whenever things finally come together.

[C.]

Is anyone following rebuild by design? It's a federal urban design competition to bring ideas on how to rebuild the region impacted by hurricane Sandy so it mitigates against future disasters. It's really interesting stuff. The plan for Hoboken was selected as a finalist. The winner of the competition may receive hurricane Sandy recovery funds to implement the vision. The Hoboken real terminal was one of the main access points for flood waters during Sandy, and the rebuild by design plan has some fascinating ideas for development in the area. This is a competing vision for the development plan presented by NJ Transit.

[C.]

Originally Posted by gttx

The 75 story proposal will simply never happen in Hoboken, so there is no need to keep fretting about it.

However, on the other side of the railyards, where you currently see the slip and empty land, we will see some significant height, whenever things finally come together.

Isn't a park already planned for that site as part of New Jersey 's gold coast?

[gttx]

Originally Posted by CIA

Is anyone following rebuild by design? It's a federal urban design competition to bring ideas on how to rebuild the region impacted by hurricane Sandy so it mitigates against future disasters. It's really interesting stuff. The plan for Hoboken was selected as a finalist. The winner of the competition may receive hurricane Sandy recovery funds to implement the vision. The Hoboken real terminal was one of the main access points for flood waters during Sandy, and the rebuild by design plan has some fascinating ideas for development in the area. This is a competing vision for the development plan presented by NJ Transit.

It just turns the railyards into a giant green stormwater catchment. I like the idea of the green necklace of landscape around Hoboken, but it basically eliminates all planned development here. Not the best.

[chris08876]

Hoboken rail yard redevelopment plan, recommendations head to city council

As proposed plans for redeveloping the Hoboken rail yards move forward, the city planning board also recommends that the city council consider the project's height and how it will affect existing businesses.

The planning board ruled on Tuesday night that the latest released redevelopment plan complies with the city's master plan, but it also passed along several recommendations for the city council. Recommendations included considering the proposed height of the commercial buildings in the plan — a maximum of 22 stories, 24 if certain design requirements are met— and assuring that existing buildings will still be accessible.

The suggestions are just that— the council isn't required to make any changes based on these recommendations.

During the public hearing, Dian and Mario Fini, who own Teak on the Hudson and several other businesses on Hudson Place, said they were concerned about the proposed pedestrian plaza at Warrington Plaza and Hudson Place. They fear that the plaza will eliminate vehicular access to their businesses, a problem they know all too well.

[...]

===================================
http://www.nj.com/hudson/index.ssf/2...l#incart_river

[C.]

Good site listing all the prior proposals and history of the Hoboken Yards

http://gothamhudson.com/hoboken-term...redevelopment/



I still think the density is too low one this one. While it's true tall buildings would be out of context in Hoboken, Jersey City has no height limits immediately to the south of this lot.

[chris08876]

Stayed over in Hoboken over the weekend ,and I checked out the sites. I would say the density proposed would work. Definitely add to an area thats generally pretty busy. Looking forward to what may arise of this.

Also on a side note, lots of little infill going on in Hoboken; mostly apartments, and some condos.

[C.]

http://media.nj.com/hudsoncountynow_...t%20Letter.pdf

Read it while it's hot.

[Crawford]

The density is far too low, but that's NIMBY Hoboken for you.

At least the rail yards themselves will likely be decked over one day, and hopefully will built at much higher density.

[Nexis4Jersey]

Originally Posted by Crawford

The density is far too low, but that's NIMBY Hoboken for you.

At least the rail yards themselves will likely be decked over one day, and hopefully will built at much higher density.

The Density is perfect for that area....Hoboken is not Brooklyn with multiple Subway lines to handle the increased congestion. It already suffers some of the worst congestion on the Bus Network in NJ outside Newark. I don't support decking over the yards for this reason... Now if the 7 Subway was extended to Hoboken Terminal then I would change my mind and the redevelopment could be Ultra-High Density without any large issues. Extending the 7 to Hoboken would also be a huge win for expanding Rail in NJ as Hoboken Terminal is under Capacity and can handle 3x the amount of trains it handles now.

[chris08876]

In general the whole system needs a massive overhaul. From bus capacity to train capacity. I mean compared to other systems(subways) around the world, its not how we say ultra overcrowded, but its getting there. My view on this development is that most of the traffic would be pedestrian, but the problem lies when it comes to those extra 10,000 residents overtime which will use the subway; especially during an already overcrowded rushhour. I wonder if they will ever consider double decker buses? (similar to Hong Kong)

[Nexis4Jersey]

Originally Posted by chris08876

In general the whole system needs a massive overhaul. From bus capacity to train capacity. I mean compared to other systems(subways) around the world, its not how we say ultra overcrowded, but its getting there. My view on this development is that most of the traffic would be pedestrian, but the problem lies when it comes to those extra 10,000 residents overtime which will use the subway; especially during an already overcrowded rushhour. I wonder if they will ever consider double decker buses? (similar to Hong Kong)

Clearance becomes a problem with Double Deckers whether its using the Parkway or the various Bus Terminals... They have Bendy buses , but that can only fix the problem for so long. The Region needs a massive Rail Expansion...which keeps being kicked down the road...

[C.]

Originally Posted by Nexis4Jersey

The Density is perfect for that area....Hoboken is not Brooklyn with multiple Subway lines to handle the increased congestion. It already suffers some of the worst congestion on the Bus Network in NJ outside Newark. I don't support decking over the yards for this reason... Now if the 7 Subway was extended to Hoboken Terminal then I would change my mind and the redevelopment could be Ultra-High Density without any large issues. Extending the 7 to Hoboken would also be a huge win for expanding Rail in NJ as Hoboken Terminal is under Capacity and can handle 3x the amount of trains it handles now.

If the 7 line is extended to Hoboken, residents would still be insisting on small scale development. The area already has excellent transit connectivity, it would be a waste to bring the 7 line to Hoboken Terminal when another alignment could benefit so much more people and come with greater redevelopment prospects.

[Nexis4Jersey]

Originally Posted by CIA

If the 7 line is extended to Hoboken, residents would still be insisting on small scale development. The area already has excellent transit connectivity, it would be a waste to bring the 7 line to Hoboken Terminal when another alignment could benefit so much more people and come with greater redevelopment prospects.

The area has an overstressed and underused transit system.... The 7 would relieve the overcrowded Bus system in Hoboken and reduce the strain on the NEC by diverting trains to the underused Hoboken Terminal. Hoboken Terminal will a slight upgrade is accessible to every NJT running every 20mins... Its already used without issues when the tunnels have problems as an alt hub for trains. Going to Secaucus is a huge waste and would not fix the regional rail problems as Secaucus is a through station. You would still need to build the New regardless but Hoboken allows for rapid Regional Rail expansion.

Your probably right about Hoboken residents not wanting ultra high density...its not really needed. With the Jersey City going full throttle in terms of height and density. So the current plan for Hoboken is enough for me and most residents as its pretty balanced... Its highly unlikely that you will ever see a decked over Rail Yard...NJT isn't to keen on it.. The Port Authority also has a say in things as it affects the PATH...

[C.]

A 7 line extension to Secacus Junction would involve the construction of a new bus terminal at the terminus, resulting in a reduction of the number of buses that would traverse the Lincoln Tunnel to an overcrowded Port Authority Bus Terminal.

There is an interesting engineering study prepared by New York City that provides preliminary alignment, station layout, and ridership projections not just for the 7 line but also NJT and PATH if built. It's worth the read.

The Port Authority has an active real estate arm. I am surprised frankly that there has not been greater coordination with NJT and Hoboken on the Hoboken Yards.

[Nexis4Jersey]

Originally Posted by CIA

A 7 line extension to Secacus Junction would involve the construction of a new bus terminal at the terminus, resulting in a reduction of the number of buses that would traverse the Lincoln Tunnel to an overcrowded Port Authority Bus Terminal.

There is an interesting engineering study prepared by New York City that provides preliminary alignment, station layout, and ridership projections not just for the 7 line but also NJT and PATH if built. It's worth the read.

The Port Authority has an active real estate arm. I am surprised frankly that there has not been greater coordination with NJT and Hoboken on the Hoboken Yards.

Secaucus is not a Terminus and is located in a Swamp....and Ive never heard of the Bus Terminal idea... If the 7 got extended to Hoboken , NJT could restore a lot of the former Regional Rail lines that currently serviced by overcrowded buses... New York City did not consult New Jersey...and the ridership projects were less then 50,000... Hardly worth a Muti-Billion $$ extension and the area is Industrial / Rail Yards...so aside from a few redevelopment your going to be surrounded by a sea of Heavy Industry.. Port Authority does what it wants and if it doesn't want something it will derail it... Hoboken like the Port Authority does what it wants and will block anything that will damage its image...

I think you should study the Regional transit system , with the future plans....a large chunk of the regional rail restorations would replace Bus service in Bergen , Rockland and Central Jersey...where Ridership is the most. Around 360,000 New users , half to Lower Manhattan and half to Midtown. If the 7 went to Hoboken , you can run trains every 2mins.... Also the JSQ-33rd PATH line is overcapacity , so redirecting people onto the 7 via the LRT would be a good alt...

[C.]

I was referring about the planned terminus of the 7 line at Secaucus Junction. Projected daily ridership between Secaucus and the Hudson Yards station is planned to hit 127,900. It would divert trips from PATH, the buses on the Lincoln Tunnel, and NJ Transit into Penn Station. Here is the report:

http://www.nycedc.com/sites/default/...April_2013.pdf

New Jersey and New Jersey Transit was consulted in the preparation of the report. There is no plans to take it to Hoboken Terminal. There have been talk from New Jersey politicians that the 7 line route alignment should be moved south to NORTH Hoboken, while on the way to Secaucus. This is the first time I've ever heard about taking it to Hoboken Terminal.

[Nexis4Jersey]

Originally Posted by CIA

I was referring about the planned terminus of the 7 line at Secaucus Junction. Projected daily ridership between Secaucus and the Hudson Yards station is planned to hit 127,900. It would divert trips from PATH, the buses on the Lincoln Tunnel, and NJ Transit into Penn Station. Here is the report:

http://www.nycedc.com/sites/default/...April_2013.pdf

New Jersey and New Jersey Transit was consulted in the preparation of the report. There is no plans to take it to Hoboken Terminal. There have been talk from New Jersey politicians that the 7 line route alignment should be moved south to NORTH Hoboken, while on the way to Secaucus. This is the first time I've ever heard about taking it to Hoboken Terminal.

The 7 doesn't even have a chance to NJ....politicians like to run their mouths in this region. But its up to the Transit Agencies , PA will most likely block it , NJT and the MTA weren't to keen on NJ.. Its really up to the MTA which I rather see complete the badly needed SAS and some Regional rail expansion in the Hudson Valley & Long Island. Christie was the only one in support of this and he doesn't have power to tell the MTA to expand into NJ. I'm not buying the Projected Ridership , the 7 Extension would mean a 2 or 3 seat ride into Manhattan vs a 1 or 2 seat ride by Bus or Train so Ridership might not be as high as they say. You also have Conflict issues with Amtrak's Gateway Project which is in the Engineer Process... The Hoboken Terminal route was pushed by NJ Rail and Transit advocates as a huge win for the region..

[C.]

Originally Posted by Nexis4Jersey

The 7 doesn't even have a chance to NJ....politicians like to run their mouths in this region. But its up to the Transit Agencies , PA will most likely block it , NJT and the MTA weren't to keen on NJ.. Its really up to the MTA which I rather see complete the badly needed SAS and some Regional rail expansion in the Hudson Valley & Long Island. Christie was the only one in support of this and he doesn't have power to tell the MTA to expand into NJ. I'm not buying the Projected Ridership , the 7 Extension would mean a 2 or 3 seat ride into Manhattan vs a 1 or 2 seat ride by Bus or Train so Ridership might not be as high as they say. You also have Conflict issues with Amtrak's Gateway Project which is in the Engineer Process... The Hoboken Terminal route was pushed by NJ Rail and Transit advocates as a huge win for the region..

Do you have a link to NJ Transit or transit advocate's call for the 7 line to be extended to Hoboken Terminal? I have honestly never heard of it outside this forum and would like to read the basis for the rationale.

All engineering firms doing this type of work inflate ridership projections, but I can't see Hoboken commanding a higher ridership number than Secaucus.