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  #21  
Old Posted Mar 26, 2007, 7:32 PM
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Is Articulating same as Accordian Style Bus

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Originally Posted by The Jabroni View Post
Well, if we can convince the whole city to kick out ALL of those who are running at city hall right now (at this point, I don't care what colours they're flying), then perhaps we can have a better transit system. Hell, maybe even a better city after all! It'll be up to the new guys to clean up the mess that previous councillors/mayors who made some indecisive mistakes over the last...oh... 50 years! It's one of the reasons why I call this place "Soviet Canuckistan."

I'm really disappointed on when those articulated buses are supposed to come this year when apparently, they haven't even started ways to accommodate them. So much bureaucracy involved in this city, it's so frustrating.
What needs to be done to accomodate articulating buses? Are those not the accordian style buses that just travel on regular roadways? Although I am an EXpatriot Winnipeger I am currently in Sherwood Park which is adjacent to Edmonton. In addition to the Edmonton Transit System both Sherwood Park and St. Albert Transit Systems operate the accordian style buses.

Is there a difference
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  #22  
Old Posted Mar 26, 2007, 8:17 PM
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Originally Posted by CB-MAN View Post
What needs to be done to accomodate articulating buses? Are those not the accordian style buses that just travel on regular roadways? Although I am an EXpatriot Winnipeger I am currently in Sherwood Park which is adjacent to Edmonton. In addition to the Edmonton Transit System both Sherwood Park and St. Albert Transit Systems operate the accordian style buses.

Is there a difference
Articulated is just the proper term for accordion buses. There are also double articulated buses which I know operate in South America
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  #23  
Old Posted Mar 26, 2007, 10:31 PM
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Articulating Buses

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Originally Posted by The Jabroni View Post
Well, if we can convince the whole city to kick out ALL of those who are running at city hall right now (at this point, I don't care what colours they're flying), then perhaps we can have a better transit system. Hell, maybe even a better city after all! It'll be up to the new guys to clean up the mess that previous councillors/mayors who made some indecisive mistakes over the last...oh... 50 years! It's one of the reasons why I call this place "Soviet Canuckistan."

I'm really disappointed on when those articulated buses are supposed to come this year when apparently, they haven't even started ways to accommodate them. So much bureaucracy involved in this city, it's so frustrating.
Jabroni, based on the responses to my question regarding articulating buses what would you be referencing regarding accomodating them. The roadways as they are could easily handle them. As mentioned in my last post numberous small cities such as St. Albert and Sherwood Park here in Alberta have these buses. I'm not sure that there would be any reason for a hold up on Winnipeg getting these.
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  #24  
Old Posted Mar 27, 2007, 12:13 AM
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Originally Posted by CB-MAN View Post
Jabroni, based on the responses to my question regarding articulating buses what would you be referencing regarding accomodating them. The roadways as they are could easily handle them. As mentioned in my last post numberous small cities such as St. Albert and Sherwood Park here in Alberta have these buses. I'm not sure that there would be any reason for a hold up on Winnipeg getting these.
The problem isn't the roads, but the garages where the buses stay. Apparently the new buses are too long to fit in our current garages.
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  #25  
Old Posted Mar 27, 2007, 2:13 AM
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Originally Posted by newflyer View Post
Welcome to SSP .. its always great to get another opinion.

I have to be honest .. I have always found this topic to be quit funny. I mean it takes a subject such as transit for you guys to relate to and understand how weak the local economy is. I mean you all seem to be willing to overlook this reality in almost every other way, but since Winnipeg can not afford to lay rails or build multi-million dollar stations you guys seem suprised.

Well good news... Manitoba has just confirmed it is to recieved hundreds of millions of dolars more in transfers, because it is so damn poor. If the NDP choose to, it could built the magic bullet sollution of rapid transit. Then everyone could feel so much better about everything.

Of course with any type of rapid transit system in place you guys will go back to being completely ignornat of the economic inefficinecy of Manitoba.

The intelligent thing would be to build the economy by eliminating the payroll tax and capital tax. Incouraging more investment .. thus building a broader tax base.... BUT since this is a forum made up of mostly people going through some sort of idealistic phase I am sure the economy will be put way on the back burner. I mean we could have BUSES and DIAMOND LANES!!!





Such is the Manitoba way of doing things.
Maybe if we fell ass backwards into a pile of dead dinosaurs we could be as great as Calgary

Why do you come into Winnipeg threads just to bitch?
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  #26  
Old Posted Mar 27, 2007, 4:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Geebrr View Post
Maybe if we fell ass backwards into a pile of dead dinosaurs we could be as great as Calgary

Why do you come into Winnipeg threads just to bitch?
Geebrr I agree newflyer rant went a little too far but isn't some of what he said true. I understand what he is saying.

Myself I would much prefer people telling there opinions without an insult. But hey opinions are for assholes, right.
oops I went too far.lol
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  #27  
Old Posted Mar 27, 2007, 9:25 AM
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The Free Press and the U of W held a Plan Your Winnipeg competition for elementary school students.

Sunday's paper had a couple of suggestions rapid transit related:

Photo caption bottom left of page B5 reads:

Quote:
Darwin Roque's Train-O-Matic: two subway systems
and on page B6:

Quote:
Others suggested taxing surface parking lots at a higher rate or getting the city to buy up some eyesore parcels for new developments. All good, bold ideas, that have been batted around before with no result.

Here's some other stuff they want: A rapid transit system, preferably an LRT...
Reference: Welch, Mary Agnes, "Young Eyes on the Town". Winnipeg Free Press, March 25, 2007, pp. B5-B6.

Hmmm... no BRT plans from the students, although some were not thinking enough and suggested turning surface parking into "green gardens".... Nooo kiddies... please turn those parking lots into hi-rise apartments, condos., and office towers.
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  #28  
Old Posted Mar 27, 2007, 3:56 PM
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Originally Posted by jimj_wpg View Post
Hmmm... no BRT plans from the students, although some were not thinking enough and suggested turning surface parking into "green gardens".... Nooo kiddies... please turn those parking lots into hi-rise apartments, condos., and office towers.
Actually, that green garden idea was from one of the undergrad students from U of M's faculty of Architecture (not quite a 'kiddie' anymore). It was more theoretical than practical as it posed the question of what do we do with all this road/parking infrastructure when it is no longer needed in the distant future (because we'll all be using public transit because of environmental concerns / price of gas). like i said, theoretical, but not quite practical - but it wasn't meant to be.

that being said, it was one of my more favorite ideas because it was one of the only projects that didn't focus on a single project to answer the question "Plan Your Winnipeg" (ie: a new building; a reworked mall; revamped courtyard). They're all great ideas, but we all know how (un)successful it is pinning our hopes to strengthen Winnipeg on a single project (ie: City Hall, Portage Place, MTS Centre), but when put together as a whole plan, things work out great (ie: St. Boniface or Osborne Village with their mix of shops, residences, business, services, parks, etc.) I was hoping to see more of that from the Adult category at last week's exhibition.
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  #29  
Old Posted Mar 27, 2007, 6:02 PM
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Originally Posted by viperred88 View Post
Geebrr I agree newflyer rant went a little too far but isn't some of what he said true. I understand what he is saying.

Myself I would much prefer people telling there opinions without an insult. But hey opinions are for assholes, right.
oops I went too far.lol

I've been a frequent transit ride (Mon-Fri) for over 2 yrs now, I made a post to see what peoples thoughts were on our current Transit system along with future thoughts/concerns on RT etc. My post was what it was, I wasn't saying anything that isn't true....... it's just a fact.

But when someone decides to be apart of a forum community and tries to insult someone else's intelligence just because they make a comment about something that the other doesn't agree with.......... I have no problem with people giving there opinions because heck this is what these forums are about. Info, debates, casual discussions, etc.

Whatever though I can really careless. My point was made earlier I provided information regarding the status of the 2006 Transit Development Project.
Take it as you wish.

All I know is when you hear city council announce a unanimously decision on a city budget for the first time since 86 shows me how much all of these councilors are actually on the same page. No wonder things take forever to get done in this city. That's a prime example to why this whole transit development plan is all out of whack.

It's just that when your born and raised in Winnipeg and know that the city has a lot of potential to become one of the best cities in Canada but yet still hits road block after road block starts to become very frustrated. I'd just like to see more happen with my tax dollars that's all. There's not much to show for, at least in regards to city transportation.

Ride our transit system as much as I do and you'll see exactly what I'm talking about.........you smell what I'm cooking?

Last edited by Alva360; Mar 27, 2007 at 9:16 PM.
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  #30  
Old Posted Mar 27, 2007, 8:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by j.online View Post
Actually, that green garden idea was from one of the undergrad students from U of M's faculty of Architecture (not quite a 'kiddie' anymore). It was more theoretical than practical as it posed the question of what do we do with all this road/parking infrastructure when it is no longer needed in the distant future (because we'll all be using public transit because of environmental concerns / price of gas). like i said, theoretical, but not quite practical - but it wasn't meant to be.

that being said, it was one of my more favorite ideas because it was one of the only projects that didn't focus on a single project to answer the question "Plan Your Winnipeg" (ie: a new building; a reworked mall; revamped courtyard). They're all great ideas, but we all know how (un)successful it is pinning our hopes to strengthen Winnipeg on a single project (ie: City Hall, Portage Place, MTS Centre), but when put together as a whole plan, things work out great (ie: St. Boniface or Osborne Village with their mix of shops, residences, business, services, parks, etc.) I was hoping to see more of that from the Adult category at last week's exhibition.
I disagree, Osborne is not succesfull as it is now, it's very trashy and dangerous, look at crimestat and you'll see the concentration of crime going on there... i was living there but get annoyed by drunk/punk and started to feel unsafe in the latter days.
Downtown as it is now it's way better then many residential neighboroughs, it's cleaner and very well illuminated at night, and i start to see more and more people at nights (of which the percentage of drunks seem decreasing), yesterday night at 12:00 a.m. the bus was pretty full
I think single projects, not necessarily huge, are still helpful.

I do not agree with newflyer for many things he say, considering that I'm communist ... but it's probably true that with more money going around and and a plan for downtown things would get better really fast, it's all about the money.
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  #31  
Old Posted Mar 27, 2007, 9:07 PM
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I wonder if it has ever occurred to Newflyer that a rapid transit system could help build the economy... but wait, that is blasphemy. MUST GET RID OF ALL TAXATION! YARRRRR!!! :pirate:

IMO, it's a short term pain for a long term gain. Even that could be reduced through alternative financing methods (such as the TIF, as stated by the OP).

Don't sell yourselves short W-Peg.
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  #32  
Old Posted Mar 28, 2007, 12:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boris550 View Post
I wonder if it has ever occurred to Newflyer that a rapid transit system could help build the economy... but wait, that is blasphemy. MUST GET RID OF ALL TAXATION! YARRRRR!!! :pirate:
Oh the irony!
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  #33  
Old Posted Mar 28, 2007, 12:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Boris550 View Post
I wonder if it has ever occurred to Newflyer that a rapid transit system could help build the economy... but wait, that is blasphemy.
It's not clear to me what effect a rapid transit system would have on Winnipeg's economy, other than to deplete it of the resources required to fund the system. It's a feel-good project, not an economic one. Feeling good is important, of course, but maybe there are cheaper ways of cheering everyone up.
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  #34  
Old Posted Mar 28, 2007, 1:20 AM
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It's not clear to me what effect a rapid transit system would have on Winnipeg's economy, other than to deplete it of the resources required to fund the system. It's a feel-good project, not an economic one. Feeling good is important, of course, but maybe there are cheaper ways of cheering everyone up.
Once again very good points. I guess the despiration to avoid the truth is showing through... with fantasies of massive growth and expansion caused by trains.

Sorry guys but economic expansion is not caused by trains... or magic fairy dust.


Please take a moment and read this section of an article which was published in the Winnipeg Chamber magazine in regards to Winnipeg's economy.





You can find this article in its whole form here:

http://www.winnipeg-chamber.com/index.asp?sectid=278
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  #35  
Old Posted Mar 28, 2007, 1:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Geebrr View Post
Maybe if we fell ass backwards into a pile of dead dinosaurs we could be as great as Calgary

Why do you come into Winnipeg threads just to bitch?

It has nothing to do with dinosaurs ... there are literally hundreds of cities with rapid trasit without any oil resources to rely on. The reailty is that socialsits like to blame everything Winnipeg doesn't have on a lack of oil. Its the most simple excuse Winnipegers have relied on for years. Just because we don't have oil, doesn't mean Winnipeg can't prosper.

I am not bitching about not having something we can't afford at the moment. Its just a simple fact Winnipeg's economy has suffered under decades of mismanagement and continuous reliance on government mega projects. It has been hampered by excessive taxes and narrow tax base.

Lets take the positive steps in making Winnipegs economy stronger. Build the economy so that the tax base expands and broadens. Then we can look to building a sytem we can be proud of... until then it will be little more than a dream. A good dream, but still a dream.

Please take some time to look over the intial concepts by the Manitoba Chamber of Commerce in how to make Manitoba a "have province".

Also examine the Winnipeg's chamber site for other concepts which have come to light in Winnipeg's struggle to rebuild its economy.

All I can say is Winnipeg is moving in the right direction. Thats not bitching .. its accepting reality and looking forward to a better future. Winnipeg has massive potential and it needs to live up to that potencial. Excuses are not acceptable any more.
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  #36  
Old Posted Mar 28, 2007, 3:13 AM
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The Economic Importance of Public Transit
Measuring and Valuing Transit Benefits and Disbenefits
Rapid Transit: A Transformative Tool
The Estimated Value Of New Investment Adjacent To DART LRT Stations: 1999-2005
DART Rail spurs economic vitality; creative developments
The Benefits of Public Transportation: Essential Support for a Strong Economy
Light Rail in Milwaukee: An Analysis of the Potential Impact on Economic Development
Public Transportation Means Business
Rail Transit In America: A Comprehensive Evaluation of Benefits

Should I post more, or is that enough reading for you guys to catch up on the subject?

Newayz, the fact that LRT drives development is quite accepted. Busses or BRT are great for getting people out of their cars, but offer nothing in the way of potential for development. Being located within distance of a Bus Station isn't going to increase your property value and it isn't going to bring business to areas around station, whether they are in downtown or elsewhere. Only rail transit does this. Business people are also more likely to take LRT than they are options. How anyone can live in Calgary, Toronto, Montreal, Vancouver, Edmonton, etc... and not see the value of transit to the economy and say that it wouldn't be worth anything is beyond me. Are you guys blind?

LOWER TAXES! LOWER TAXES! LOWER TAXES! GRAAAAARRRR!
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Last edited by Boris2k7; Mar 28, 2007 at 3:28 AM.
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  #37  
Old Posted Mar 28, 2007, 3:31 AM
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Most of it seems to be vague claims by advocacy groups. No doubt some of it is accurate as far as much larger, faster growing and traffic-congested U.S. metropolitan areas are concerned. However, I don't really see much that would apply to the specific situation of Winnipeg. What specific economic benefits would Winnipeg realize as the result of having a rapid transit system? A follow-up question would be: What evidence is there that these benefits would outweigh the costs of building the system? And a third would be: Could the same or greater benefits be realized in some less expensive way?
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  #38  
Old Posted Mar 28, 2007, 3:33 AM
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[QUOTE=Boris550;2723706

LOWER TAXES! LOWER TAXES! LOWER TAXES! GRAAAAARRRR! [/QUOTE]

I think there is a far stronger economic case to be made for

LOWER TAXES! LOWER TAXES!

than there is for

RAPID TRANSIT! RAPID TRANSIT!
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  #39  
Old Posted Mar 28, 2007, 3:41 AM
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Oh wait, I forgot, the "University of Wisconsin-Milwaukee Center for Economic Development," the "Transportation Research Board - National Research Council," and the "Victoria Transport Policy Institute" must also just be advocacy groups making "vague claims" such as:

"Expenditures on automobiles, fuel and roadway facilities provide relatively little regional economic activity because they are capital intensive and largely imported from other areas. A study using national input-output table data found that each 1% of regional travel shifted from automobile to public transit increases regional income about $2.9 million, resulting in 226 additional regional jobs (Miller, Robison & Lahr, 1999). These impacts are summarized in Table 6. As described earlier, Large Rail city residents spend an average of $448 less annually per capita on transportation than residents of Bus Only cities, despite higher incomes and longer average commute distances, totaling $22.6 billion in savings. If each million dollars in consumer expenditures shifted from automobile expenses to general consumer expenditures provides an average of 8.6 jobs and $219,000 in regional income, as indicated in Table 6, rail transit provides a total of 194,114 additional jobs and $4.9 billion in additional regional income in those cities."

Oh, and I guess Winnipeg also can't possibly complete with the mighty economic powerhouse of... Milwaukee... in 1992...

What alternatives would you have, road widenings? LOL

As of yet, neither you nor newflyer have presented a coherent argument against rapid transit backed by figures. You've merely muttered on about how it can't possibly work in Winnipeg and that the situation is somehow different from other "midwestern" cities.
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  #40  
Old Posted Mar 28, 2007, 11:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boris550 View Post
As of yet, neither you nor newflyer have presented a coherent argument against rapid transit backed by figures. You've merely muttered on about how it can't possibly work in Winnipeg and that the situation is somehow different from other "midwestern" cities.
I would doubt that the size of Winnipeg's economy is anywhere close to that of Greater Milwaukee, now or in 1992. The situation of Winnipeg is very different from those of other "midwestern" cities, because it is a much smaller city that already has heavy transit use and does not have a significant problem (compared to these other cities) with traffic congestion. It is also a very slow growth city that can't rely on forests of condos appearing overnight next to the new rapid transit stations and other such alleged benefits of rapid transit.

Ultimately, rapid transit is a way to move people around. In Winnipeg, people already move around pretty easily. Undoubtedly rapid transit would improve movement for some people to some degree, but I don't think that that improvement would make much of a difference to the economy or justify the cost of the system.
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