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Old Posted Apr 28, 2010, 10:46 AM
CT340 CT340 is offline
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Atlanta Studies 5th runway or Second Airport

Has anyone read the article.

City to study 2nd airport, sixth runway

Friday, April 23, 2010
City to study 2nd airport, sixth runway
Atlanta Business Chronicle - by J. Scott Trubey Staff Writer

'Atlanta officials are moving closer to determining whether the city builds a second commercial airport or a new runway at the one it already has.

Atlanta City Council has given the green light for a study to determine the viability of a second commercial airport, or potentially a sixth runway at Hartsfield-Jackson Atlanta International Airport.

The move comes as Gwinnett County is eying options for commercial service at Lawrenceville’s Briscoe Field. (See related story on Page 3A.)

Hartsfield-Jackson, the world’s busiest airport, serves about 90 million passengers each year and more than 56,000 people are employed through jobs directly connected to the airport. Hartsfield-Jackson has an estimated annual economic impact of $23.5 billion.

^^^^


I think both ideas a ok. I mean there are cities states that have more than one MAIN airport. Another one good bring about more jobs, airline services, and jump start a redevelopment phase in what ever city they decide to place it in. Another runway could boost the airport's business, more airlines, and could possibly jump start Hartsfield into becoming one of the biggest airports in the region. or U.S.
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  #2  
Old Posted Apr 28, 2010, 12:56 PM
BlindFatSnake BlindFatSnake is offline
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Another airport in the regions IS NOT NEEDED...

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Originally Posted by CT340 View Post
Has anyone read the article.

City to study 2nd airport, sixth runway

Friday, April 23, 2010
City to study 2nd airport, sixth runway
Atlanta Business Chronicle - by J. Scott Trubey Staff Writer

'Atlanta officials are moving closer to determining whether the city builds a second commercial airport or a new runway at the one it already has.

Atlanta City Council has given the green light for a study to determine the viability of a second commercial airport, or potentially a sixth runway at Hartsfield-Jackson Atlanta International Airport.

The move comes as Gwinnett County is eying options for commercial service at Lawrenceville’s Briscoe Field. (See related story on Page 3A.)

Hartsfield-Jackson, the world’s busiest airport, serves about 90 million passengers each year and more than 56,000 people are employed through jobs directly connected to the airport. Hartsfield-Jackson has an estimated annual economic impact of $23.5 billion.

^^^^


I think both ideas a ok. I mean there are cities states that have more than one MAIN airport. Another one good bring about more jobs, airline services, and jump start a redevelopment phase in what ever city they decide to place it in. Another runway could boost the airport's business, more airlines, and could possibly jump start Hartsfield into becoming one of the biggest airports in the region. or U.S.
CT340, Atlanta IS the biggest airport in the WORLD.

If Gwinnett wants to build another airport to compete or complement Hartsfield-Jackson, let them go ahead and spend the millions of dollars it takes to start a brand new airport. In the end, it'll cost the local county (Gwinnett) taxpayers so much money the county would file for bankruptcy shortly after the airport opens...

Business travelers will still perfer Hartsfield-Jackson because of the proximity to the center of the city. Besides, you'd have to get competing airlines to lease the gates at an upstart airport. If Delta does NOT sign on, you'll have an airport that resembles a military airstrip...
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  #3  
Old Posted Apr 28, 2010, 1:14 PM
darryl27 darryl27 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlindFatSnake View Post
CT340, Atlanta IS the biggest airport in the WORLD.
Atlanta's airport is the busiest, not the biggest.
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Old Posted Apr 28, 2010, 1:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlindFatSnake View Post
CT340, Atlanta IS the biggest airport in the WORLD.
Nope. That honor actually belongs to King Fahd International Airport in Saudi Arabia. That airport spans an area of about 485 square miles. However, ATL is the busiest airport in the world based on traffic movement.

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Originally Posted by BlindFatSnake View Post
Business travelers will still perfer Hartsfield-Jackson because of the proximity to the center of the city. Besides, you'd have to get competing airlines to lease the gates at an upstart airport. If Delta does NOT sign on, you'll have an airport that resembles a military airstrip...
Maybe; maybe not. Atlanta may not have the population to support a true second commercial airport, but LOTS of people would like to see Southwest in this market and a second airport resembling Midway (Chicago) or Burbank (Los Angeles) would be right up their alley. With not (or barely) a Delta jet in sight.
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Old Posted Apr 28, 2010, 1:19 PM
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Atlanta City Council has given the green light for a study to determine the viability of a second commercial airport, or potentially a sixth runway at Hartsfield-Jackson Atlanta International Airport.
Can you imagine the taxi times for a sixth runway... The amount of time it often takes to reach the gate after landing at runway number five can often be painful!
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  #6  
Old Posted Apr 28, 2010, 4:16 PM
cybele cybele is offline
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Well, I saw a pretty good thing on Airport Economics the other day.
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  #7  
Old Posted Apr 28, 2010, 7:01 PM
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This is odd. The aircraft traffic is down since even before they opened the fifth runway.

By the way, a new Airport would cost many billion is the cost of the fifth runway and the new international terminal are to be believed.
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Last edited by dante2308; Apr 28, 2010 at 7:17 PM.
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  #8  
Old Posted Apr 28, 2010, 9:08 PM
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If there is a sixth runway built at the Airport, it will probably be right next to 10/28, minimizing the need for additional land. I suppose it would make cargo operations more efficient if they moved all that to the south side of the airport and dedicate the north side to passenger operations exclusively.

I'd like to see Southwest set up a hub at Dobbins one of these days. That's the only way I see any airport serving a true complementary role to Hartsfield at this point. While Dobbins is OTP, it's convenient to not only the city of Atlanta, but also Cumberland and Perimeter as well. But that all depends on the base closing at some point in the future.
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  #9  
Old Posted Apr 28, 2010, 9:14 PM
Curious Atlantan Curious Atlantan is offline
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I see nobody is even considering relieving some of the air traffic with High Speed Rail.
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  #10  
Old Posted Apr 28, 2010, 9:32 PM
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The only competitive high speed rail trip would be to Charlotte and I doubt that makes a dent in Atlanta's airline traffic.
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  #11  
Old Posted Apr 28, 2010, 11:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Rail Claimore View Post
If there is a sixth runway built at the Airport, it will probably be right next to 10/28, minimizing the need for additional land. I suppose it would make cargo operations more efficient if they moved all that to the south side of the airport and dedicate the north side to passenger operations exclusively.

I'd like to see Southwest set up a hub at Dobbins one of these days. That's the only way I see any airport serving a true complementary role to Hartsfield at this point. While Dobbins is OTP, it's convenient to not only the city of Atlanta, but also Cumberland and Perimeter as well. But that all depends on the base closing at some point in the future.
This would be a much better option than something in northeast Gwinnett, cheaper to. If you've ever been to Albuquerque airport it shares the property and runways with Kirtland Air Force base. They just have their buildings at opposite ends of the property. You could have new terminal building and connect it to I-75 to the east or I-285 with the south/southeast.
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  #12  
Old Posted Apr 29, 2010, 12:39 AM
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I think we should consider encouraging airlines to reorient to point to point travel instead of having massive hubs and layovers. This would reduce the burden on our own airport and improve service and efficiency for passengers. It would also reduce fuel used per trip. Moreover a single storm in Atlanta doesn't ruin the entire airline system and a single late flight doesn't cause people to have to sleep in our terminal for a week. Not to mention breaking up Delta's flight patterns means more competition and cheaper prices for us and finally access to Southwest.

Southwest Airlines uses a point to point system and happens to be the most profitable airline in the business and is now the second largest airline in the entire world and serves the most US domestic passengers.

This should probably be our primary focus. Enough with Delta's lobby running the city like a crime family.
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Last edited by dante2308; Apr 29, 2010 at 12:52 AM.
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  #13  
Old Posted May 1, 2010, 8:52 PM
jacksonart55 jacksonart55 is offline
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I don't think Point-to-Point travel will work for large airlines like Delta, Continental, United, and so forth. I mean, the system before deregulation was like that, and the airlines that didn't switch after deregulation (in most cases, not all), bled money. Southwest is the second-largest airline in the world by number of passengers traveled, but they also own nearly 550 planes and only fly to 68 destinations. Comparable airlines of that size have upwards of over 250 destinations across the world. To expect an airline like Delta to replicate system like Southwest almost isn't feasible. Plus, Southwest maintains notable large bases of operations at places like Chicago-Midway, Denver, Baltimore-Washington, and Phoenix. Having to fly Phoenix-Baltimore-New York and Phoenix-Midway-New York isn't exactly point-to-point, and is not that appealing taking in the time it takes to get there and the competitive prices on other airlines (which do exist if you're flying a route where Southwest competes on)

A second airport requires airlines, and the only ones that I can think of that would possibly want to switch to an airport miles away from the business districts of Atlanta (Well, at least Perimeter Center/Buckhead/Cumberland-Vinings/Midtown/Downtown, at least), would be Southwest and possibly JetBlue, the latter of which pulled out because of stiff competetion from Airtran AND Delta (which it would still face price and service-wise even if it was at another Atlanta-Area airport). And if Southwest can obtain just ONE gate at ATL, they operate efficently from it. Airtran and Delta operate Hubs at ATL, and you can't really have one plane land in Gwinettt County and then tell your passengers you have two hours to find a way to Clayton County, so they'd be out, except maybe to cities with high O&D like Chicago and New York (expect only a few flights a day, unlike the 35+ we have now). Smaller airlines, like US Airways and United, probably wouldn't move, because moving puts them farther away from the business centers of Atlanta. And let's face it, Business and First Class makes up a significant part of an airline's revenue, more than we think. The airport would sit empty. Let's not forget MidAmerica St. Louis Airport and Montréal-Mirabel International Airport. If gate space and traffic congestion goes down at ATL, the second airport will most definitely flop.

In my opinion, five runways + a better ATC system should be enough to alleviate delays, but if a sixth runway must be built, it would be better north of 10/28. That way, they won't have to buy out people's homes, schools, and warehouses, and businesses, and use most of their land for construction of a new runway. Plus, an end-around taxiway (like Taxiway Victor, which is being used for 8R/26L and 8L/26L) called Taxiway Whiskey is in the planning stages for 10/28 already. Taxi times should improve even if no new runways are built, and delays should go down even further if a sixth runway is built.

More information on this situation, and some on Taxiway Whiskey, can be found here.

Last edited by jacksonart55; May 2, 2010 at 3:39 AM.
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  #14  
Old Posted May 2, 2010, 2:21 AM
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I'm not sure how the number of destinations makes point to point infeasible. If you would, please explain this for me.

Southwest has a hybrid system, but it is mostly point to point. The purpose of the hybrid is to serve the very low traffic routes and to take advantage of the incentive structure meant for hub based airlines. As for bleeding money... which major hub to hub airline hasn't gone bankrupt? Point to point is just mathematically cheaper and the most profitable major airline has been Southwest for years.
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Old Posted May 2, 2010, 2:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlindFatSnake View Post
CT340, Atlanta IS the biggest airport in the WORLD.

If Gwinnett wants to build another airport to compete or complement Hartsfield-Jackson, let them go ahead and spend the millions of dollars it takes to start a brand new airport. In the end, it'll cost the local county (Gwinnett) taxpayers so much money the county would file for bankruptcy shortly after the airport opens...

Business travelers will still perfer Hartsfield-Jackson because of the proximity to the center of the city. Besides, you'd have to get competing airlines to lease the gates at an upstart airport. If Delta does NOT sign on, you'll have an airport that resembles a military airstrip...
Uh...Southwest? All you need is Southwest at the airport, then other airlines will come in.
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Old Posted May 2, 2010, 4:00 AM
jacksonart55 jacksonart55 is offline
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Originally Posted by dante2308 View Post
I'm not sure how the number of destinations makes point to point infeasible. If you would, please explain this for me.

Southwest has a hybrid system, but it is mostly point to point. The purpose of the hybrid is to serve the very low traffic routes and to take advantage of the incentive structure meant for hub based airlines. As for bleeding money... which major hub to hub airline hasn't gone bankrupt? Point to point is just mathematically cheaper and the most profitable major airline has been Southwest for years.
Oops...I'm sorry if it wasn't so clear. I got carried away at once, and my opinions jut kinda flowed out all at once (It was my second post, so I guess I was still pretty excited!). I'll clarify:

I didn't mean the number of destinations, I was referencing the number of planes. Southwest has 548 planes spread out over 68 destinations. American, which had about 620 mainline planes, spread out over 216 destinations. That's a lot of planes for such a small number of destinations.

Okay, most of the hub-and-spoke airlines have gone into bankruptcy, but in their defense, I must say that most of then weren't because of their route structure. But alas, I can't debate against the point of point-to-point being more profitable (the math is beyond me...), but if the other major airlines still use the hub system, there must be some merit to it. Do you see any?
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Old Posted May 2, 2010, 6:21 AM
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Oops...I'm sorry if it wasn't so clear. I got carried away at once, and my opinions jut kinda flowed out all at once (It was my second post, so I guess I was still pretty excited!). I'll clarify:

I didn't mean the number of destinations, I was referencing the number of planes. Southwest has 548 planes spread out over 68 destinations. American, which had about 620 mainline planes, spread out over 216 destinations. That's a lot of planes for such a small number of destinations.

Okay, most of the hub-and-spoke airlines have gone into bankruptcy, but in their defense, I must say that most of then weren't because of their route structure. But alas, I can't debate against the point of point-to-point being more profitable (the math is beyond me...), but if the other major airlines still use the hub system, there must be some merit to it. Do you see any?
Well let me just start by saying that the number of times these airlines go bankrupt puts the structure of the entire industry into question. It is hardly a case of "because it exists, it must be right." The merits of a hub-based system for Delta, for example, as is evident just from this discussion, is that they have incredible anti-competitive clout in hub cities and are able to crowd out better carriers. In cities few carriers form an oligopoly and grow in size and significance to the point where governments are forced to subsidize and bail out a wasteful corporation lest their economies collapse.

From a technical standpoint, the benefit of a hub is that by funneling traffic from a large region through one airport, you can increase the frequency of service to specific destinations. For example service to small town from an Atlanta hub would funnel several low volume point to point trips onto a single route. However timing flexibility only justifies a small part of the traffic and has no cost benefit for the consumer or carrier except on the margins.

From a consumer standpoint, a flight from Atlanta to a destination may be relatively easy to find for us, but we only have a tiny number of competitive carriers to chose from and zero choice for some destinations. This means that the airlines have the pricing advantage. For people not living in a hub airport, consumers are forced to make multiple expensive backwards stops in order to reach a destination even if enough traffic is available for a short direct trip.

Now on the number of aircraft per destination, that doesn't quite measure much. For example it could mean simply that they have more market share in more places. Delta may dominate its hubs, but it would make sense that Southwest would send more planes to more places because it isn't tied to fewer markets and it is a low cost carrier.

Here is a quick comparison using the numbers you gave me and the domestic traffic totals:

Delta: 59,000 passengers/year/aircraft
Southwest: 185,980 passengers/year/aircraft

(Lest you think otherwise, Delta's fleet average passenger capacity is higher)

Having many planes going to each destination and more than three times the traffic per plane is a sign of a thriving company. The debate between point to point is already being won in the corporate world and would be over in the absence of the horrid relationship between the established airlines and the governments.

As per this discussion, point to point refocusing of the airline industry would lift the burden on hub cities to subsidize all the airport expansions for a wide region. The inherent inefficiencies of using multiple planes for one trip means more flights and more airport resources per customer. The total required investment in airports can be reduced by simply letting the point to point market thrive in a free capitalistic market. Atlanta would hardly need to serve 90 million passengers a year for several decades if ever had the airport only served local traffic.

You mentioned deregulation. I will posit that deregulation leads to monopolistic and anti-capitalistic entanglements that doesn't find the winners, but rather gives unlimited powers to whatever organization existed at the point of deregulation. Regulation can be poor, but the theory of capitalism is a search for a purely competitive market. Regulation is the only method available as a society for keeping markets competitive and companies from demonstrating the power to control and manipulate the market to destroy competition. Therefore deregulation cannot be used as evidence as a working system and may show exactly the opposite as deregulation has continuously led to massive market failures and widespread bankruptcies. Put simply, the absence of regulation eliminates the cap on risk. It is an experiment where anything can happen and usually does.
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Last edited by dante2308; May 2, 2010 at 6:42 AM.
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  #18  
Old Posted May 2, 2010, 6:46 AM
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Oh and welcome jacksonart! Sorry to lay it on so heavily when you're so new. I'm weird like that. Have fun in our forums though!
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Old Posted May 2, 2010, 11:37 PM
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People haven't thought about how you link these two airports. People may want to connect from one airline to another. They would not want to ride local rail (even if it went into Gwinnett). The only proposed regional high-speed rail for inter-airport travel was the mag-lev to Chattanooga. That would be a 45 minute express trip (could be made straight from the Atlanta underground subway) and would make perfect sense, since that line could be used for other things as well and go through Cumberland and Town Center if it used the highway median.
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