Metro Vancouver Road Infrastructure Discussion

[Metro-One]

Drove the #1 countless times when I was back in town this summer (and last summer) never had a problem with the Cape Horn. It is a well designed Interchange.

If there is a problem now it may have something to do with a recent decision to remove tolls...

The construction of the Sunbury Interchange on the 17 (SFPR) / major upgrade to the Interchange on the south end of the Alex Fraser must still be going ahead seeing how well over half of that project is being funded by the Feds, the port, and even the local First Nations. If the NDP cancel that I am sure more than a few people will be angered.

[Pinion]

Multiple videos in article: https://globalnews.ca/news/3765300/l...es-worsen/amp/

Little hope of third crossing to North Shore as traffic woes worsen

For residents on the North Shore, downtown Vancouver is so close, but can seem so far away.

Congestion on the Lions Gate and Second Narrows bridges have gotten so bad, residents take it as a fact of life.

In 1960, there were nines lane of traffic to and from the North Shore. Fifty-seven years later, there are still nine lanes, and no more are in the works.

Experts say a third crossing for vehicles isn’t the answer.

“Everybody knows you can’t build your way out of congestion,” traffic planner Eric Docherty said.

City of North Vancouver Mayor Darrell Mussatto said the solution is rapid transit. He has suggested that it’s time to take a serious look at building a rapid-transit tunnel underneath Burrard Inlet.

“What I think is the future that people don’t want to hear is going to be a much bigger, much more enhanced public transportation service so that people don’t need their cars to use every day to cross the bridges.”

Transportation analyst Richard Littlemore thinks the answer to the North Shore’s growing traffic congestion is not beneath the water but above it — way above it.

Littlemore thinks a transit gondola could be built connecting the North Shore to Downtown Vancouver.

“You can do it,” he said. “The technology is there. It’s simple. Gondolas are really cheap to run once you build them.”

Historian Eve Lazarus said that once plans for a freeway through downtown Vancouver were nixed in the 1960s, so were plans of a third crossing to the North Shore.

“I think the North Shore was kind of an afterthought,” she said. “The third crossing seemed like a good idea and that would connect the Burrard Bridge to the third-crossing bridge.”

With rapid transit likely decades away, Docherty says the quickest solution may be to put more buses on the road.

“I would say it’s time to invest in those bus lanes to signal it’s a priority so that transit is actually faster and you can get the congestion relieved.”

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by Pinion

Multiple videos in article: https://globalnews.ca/news/3765300/l...es-worsen/amp/

A gondola across Burrard Inlet? How the heck is that supposed to work?

I actually think that a third Seabus is going to help a lot by increasing the frequency from once every 15 minutes to once every 10 minutes, and also increasing capacity. A fourth Seabus would get us down to 7.5 minute intervals and be far cheaper than something like a rapid transit tunnel.

The 15-minute trip across the inlet is really not bad, but it's hampered by the average wait time for the next Seabus. Frequencies are almost as important as transit times for a connection that short.

[GlassCity]

The next SkyTrain line after Broadway and Surrey should no question be to the North Shore. If a tunnel under the inlet is as impossible as they say, maybe you could have a line going from Brentwood, beside the Second Narrows and then connect to Phibbs Exchange, Lonsdale and maybe even Park Royal if it could be afforded. Obviously it's not ideal as it doesn't go downtown, but it's the most practical solution I can think of. Continually improving the SeaBus could work as the direct downtown connection, while travel outside of downtown would be by SkyTrain. It would also help by at least alleviating traffic on 3rd Street and Marine Drive if it did extend to Park Royal.

But that's just my little fantasy for now. Whichever form it takes, the North Shore does have to be the next rapid transit expansion area.

[Pinion]

Originally Posted by GlassCity

The next SkyTrain line after Broadway and Surrey should no question be to the North Shore. If a tunnel under the inlet is as impossible as they say, maybe you could have a line going from Brentwood, beside the Second Narrows and then connect to Phibbs Exchange, Lonsdale and maybe even Park Royal if it could be afforded.

I think this will help a lot since most north shore traffic is coming to and from eastern suburbs.

10 minute seabuses, on the other hand, is just a convenience thing and won't improve road traffic. It's still way too slow.

[GlassCity]

Originally Posted by Pinion

I think this will help a lot since most north shore traffic is coming to and from eastern suburbs.

10 minute seabuses, on the other hand, is just a convenience thing and won't improve road traffic. It's still way too slow.

I'm glad you agree, as I'm actually very unfamiliar with the north shore.

Even if it didn't help road traffic (you can't build your way out of it and all that) at least it would provide another way out. You've mentioned before how you feel stuck at home sometimes because traffic is so bad. Maybe traffic stays bad, but now there would be at least one option of bypassing it and escaping.

And for those already on transit, heading to places like SFU might suck a little less.

[Alex Mackinnon]

Originally Posted by aberdeen5698

A gondola across Burrard Inlet? How the heck is that supposed to work?

I actually think that a third Seabus is going to help a lot by increasing the frequency from once every 15 minutes to once every 10 minutes, and also increasing capacity. A fourth Seabus would get us down to 7.5 minute intervals and be far cheaper than something like a rapid transit tunnel.

The 15-minute trip across the inlet is really not bad, but it's hampered by the average wait time for the next Seabus. Frequencies are almost as important as transit times for a connection that short.

There are several spots you could do it easily. The problem is how useful those are. You're not going to cross more than a few hundred metres of water unless you build obscenely tall and expensive towers to elevate the tram.

Think of how much sag there is in the middle of the Whistler gondola.

So, either you make the crossing near Lions Gate or Second Narrows, or run a weird route with a oblique angle. Adding in turn stations is very expensive, so it would probably have to be a straight line.

[logicbomb]

I haven't been to NVan in 3 years. All my favorite spots were slowly discovered and taken over by tourists or the instagram crowd.

They could start enforcing parking violations and charge for parking in popular hiking spots. Most traffic on weekends is due to people flocking to the North Shore to hike or go to Quary Rock.

Additionally...the province needs to act fast on specualtion and foreign buyers. I am finding the influx of commuters SOF once lived in the North Shore...but either cashed out or were priced out.

Back on track. Traffic continues to increase on the Patullo and Port Mann. The former saw a dramatic increase in weekday congestion last week. The Port Mann has become a big chokepoint as well...Residents in Coquitlam have seen an increase in commuters using Brunette and Lougheed in attempt to bypass the congestion.

edit:Highway 1 backed to 176th St. 152nd backed to 102nd Ave. Ridiculous.

edit 2: Now to near 192nd St. 152nd backed to 98th Ave.

[GeeCee]

The two accidents on the Port Mann bridge deck heading westbound are probably not helping.

[idunno]

I'm beginning to agree with the idea that "tolls = better drivers and therefore fewer accidents."

[waves]

Originally Posted by aberdeen5698

A gondola across Burrard Inlet? How the heck is that supposed to work?

Regardless of whether it will help or not, it's not really possible:

Originally Posted by waves

I posted this in another thread, but noticed it would also be useful here.

[twoNeurons]

Tolling the Lion's Gate ( bill it as convenience charge akin to accessing London's centre ) would reduce congestion. And if the suburbs north of Vancouver want to complain then they can either give up their autonomy and become a part of Vancouver Proper or use the 2nd Narrows.

[Zassk]

I think the answer is simpler than most of the proposals.

For almost 20 years, there has been a fully-vetted design on the books for how to widen Second Narrows Bridge to 8 lanes plus proper shoulders - almost doubling the width of the road deck.

Instead of widening the road deck, I would suggest that a set of Skytrain tracks should be built underneath the road deck, within the superstructure, just like the express lanes in Seattle were added to the bridge there.

A SkyTrain line east from Waterfront could hug the port lands, serve Hastings Park and then go over to North Shore to the park & ride. Eventually, it could be extended along the port lands to Lonsdale.

This would give a roundabout SkyTrain route from Lonsdale to downtown - probably about 15 minute train ride - but would be superior to the SeaBus because of better frequency, and would be much much cheaper to operate than the SeaBus.

Finally, if a wye was built at Hastings Park, it would be very cheap to build a short branch southeast to connect at Gilmore Station and terminate at BCIT. In this way, a relatively simple expansion of the SkyTrain network would connect numerous new destinations that are currently underserved.

[Pinion]

Originally Posted by twoNeurons

Tolling the Lion's Gate ( bill it as convenience charge akin to accessing London's centre ) would reduce congestion. And if the suburbs north of Vancouver want to complain then they can either give up their autonomy and become a part of Vancouver Proper or use the 2nd Narrows.

How would "giving up their autonomy" solve anything? Why are you so hostile towards north shore residents?

Maybe CoV should give up their ideological oppression and allow adequate infrastructure to be built. A one lane road in the heart of a city of 2.5 million is embarrassing.

[ClaytonA]

In the late 1990's the provincial government when planning to rebuild the Lions Gate wanted to put in an entirely new bridge and charge a toll. The North Shore said no. They refurbished the existing bridge. Also in the 90's they removed the last 3 stop lights from Hwy 1 on the North Shore (Lonsdale at the top of the Cut was one of them). Do we need to do something? Yes. Seabus frequency is a quick and easy fix, but even then people will want to drive. It'd be interesting to compare bicycling times, transit, and driving times to say Nat Bailey Stadium and Dundarave during a rush/congested time. It's not like there's no choice. Just not choices some people want to use.

Also in the Gateway documents before the 2010 Olympics the provincial government studied a tunneled rail connection. They said it would be too expensive to build to a standard of 100km/h or average vehicle driving time to compete with the car. Where did it come from that they can't tunnel?

[moosejaw]

Originally Posted by Zassk

A SkyTrain line east from Waterfront could hug the port lands, serve Hastings Park and then go over to North Shore to the park & ride. Eventually, it could be extended along the port lands to Lonsdale.

This would give a roundabout SkyTrain route from Lonsdale to downtown - probably about 15 minute train ride - but would be superior to the SeaBus because of better frequency, and would be much much cheaper to operate than the SeaBus.

You do know that Skytrain cant climb steep grades right?

[cganuelas1995]

http://www.cfox.com/2017/09/25/new-c...s-gate-bridge/

Got any ideas for a solution?

I say just tear down that shit-ass 3 lane bridge (weird number of lanes for a highway bridge) and build a 4 or even 6 lane bridge, 2-3 lanes in each direction.

[logicbomb]

Originally Posted by cganuelas1995

http://www.cfox.com/2017/09/25/new-c...s-gate-bridge/

Got any ideas for a solution?

I say just tear down that shit-ass 3 lane bridge (weird number of lanes for a highway bridge) and build a 4 or even 6 lane bridge, 2-3 lanes in each direction.

That should have been done 20 years ago. Sadly, no government would permit the "destruction" of Stanley Park for a 6 lane bridge.

This City and province is so fucking backwards that nothing will be done about the congestion over the next few decades. Maybe pricing everyone out of the region with high real estate and living costs will relieve congestion.

Originally Posted by idunno

I'm beginning to agree with the idea that "tolls = better drivers and therefore fewer accidents."

Smarter people knew the benefits of the tolls. I used to laugh when I would cruise over the bridge while the Patullo would be plagued by stalls and accidents almost every morning. Sadly, you have so many accidents and stalls plaguing both bridges now. Patullo traffic is on par with last year while Port Mann continues to see gains every week. I would not be surprised if traffic has increased by over 20% coming out of SOF.

[cganuelas1995]

Originally Posted by logicbomb

That should have been done 20 years ago. Sadly, no government would permit the "destruction" of Stanley Park for a 6 lane bridge.

This City and province is so fucking backwards that nothing will be done about the congestion over the next few decades. Maybe pricing everyone out of the region with high real estate and living costs will relieve congestion.

If they're gonna do that, better upgrade the transit infrastructure, i.e. all-day, bidirectional commuter rail.

[libtard]

The Port Mann should be tolled because it's a brand new piece of infrastructure and makes it easier for people to commute from the valley. Applying tolls to old, decrepit pieces of infrastructure doesn't make sense.