"I'm Jealous of Vancouver" polemic in the US Northwest section

[agrant]

Originally Posted by Hourglass

how many of you actually have to make the hellish commute in from (or to) Surrey to anywhere north of the Fraser River?

I've experienced it enough to know I'm thankful I don't live on the other side of the river. It just blows my mind why anyone would want to commute through that everyday. I'm sure it takes years off you're life. Btw - I'm not anti Gateway. Not really passionate about it either way. But I think that by doing nothing with the Port Mann is asking for trouble. Also, I'd really like to see more of these future light rail lanes developed, but I guess that's going to have to wait for available funds. I do like the idea of tolling for helping make up those funds.

[Lee_Haber8]

I keep hearing things like there aren't any public transit alternatives so why don't we come up with some.

Why don't they build a light-rail line from Guildford to Lougheed Town Centre? Have a B-Line and then upgrade it to light-rail when it gets up to a certain level of ridership. It could be a condition that would go with twinning the Port Mann.

Here's a map I made of potential transit lines in Surrey.



You could probably pay for a good chunk of this with the Gateway money

[en2]

They should have built an extension of SkyTrain or some other kind of rail-based rapid transit with this project and then tie in the rapid transit with coordinated development.

The problem of sprawl is that because of the high housing costs, people who do not own homes are essentially pushed out into the suburbs.

Also another problem of sprawl is the developments themselves. They are horribly designed for car access only. Why can't they build new subdivisions/neighbourhoods like how Vancouver was built...in a grid like fashion where organic, living neighbourhoods can truly develop?

There is enough land for single family homes for everyone who wants one, except that they should make the lots smaller. Just look at most Vancouver single family homes, do they need that massive front lawn and that driveway?

You could build 2 more houses on a lot of an average Vancouver single family home lot.

Which would be more attractive, owning a small condo versus owning your own little house with your own land?

The thing about suggesting more people to buy condos is that once you buy a condo, you have to pay monthly maintenence costs that usually keeps going up and given Vancouver's rainy weather and shoddy construction methods, those condos could end up becoming a financial liability.

[cornholio]

Originally Posted by Lee_Haber8

I keep hearing things like there aren't any public transit alternatives so why don't we come up with some.

Why don't they build a light-rail line from Guildford to Lougheed Town Centre? Have a B-Line and then upgrade it to light-rail when it gets up to a certain level of ridership. It could be a condition that would go with twinning the Port Mann.

Here's a map I made of potential transit lines in Surrey.



You could probably pay for a good chunk of this with the Gateway money

The line from Guildford to Braid along the number one would fbe perfect if it was built together with the Evergreen line heading along lougheed highway. This way for very little extra cost you would not only have the Evergreen line done but you would also have a new conection from Surrey to Burnaby and Coquitlam center. Im sure it wouldent cost more then a extra 200-300 hundred million or so if it was combined with the port man twining. Only problem would be that the Evergreen line would be routed through the south but in this scenario I would actualy suport lrt.

Also I keep forgeting that they are building westbound offramps and eastbound on ramps for buses only at north road next to lougheed mall which means there will be express buses crossing port man from guildford and probably even further out. These buses would be no different then a b-line and in the HOV lanes should be able to maintain a speed of around 80-90km per hour even during rush hour which would translate in to a pretty quick trip from guildford to lougheed mall. This means that the pasenger turn around time would be quick and it would make the buses profitabel plus they would divert more pasengers to the millenium line instead of the heavily used expo line.

[jpick]

Building rail transit lines in the middle of freeways is completely idiotic.

They've done that for much of the BART system in California. It's got incredibly low ridership given how huge a system it is.

People don't live in the middle of freeways. Build the rail lines to the population centers.

You look at the real estate listings for Europe, or Asia, and along with every listing is the name of the closest rail/subway station. Every neighborhood should be built around a station. That's the way to do it.

[EastVanMark]

Originally Posted by jpick

I'm not so much against twinning the Port Mann. It is a bottleneck.

The thing I'm against is adding additional lanes onto all the freeways all the way into downtown. It's stop-and-go congestion now. It will be stop-and-go congestion the day after they cut the ribbon on their billion dollar "improvement", just for a few less hours per day. Then give it 5 years, as new housing developments open up further down the valley, and it will be worse than it is now.

Why not just let the congestion work for us? It's the congestion which will help people decide where they want to live. Employers will be forced to locate near their workers.

They can save a billion dollars on the freeway widening to downtown (where all the traffic will still have to wait to get onto 1st, Hastings, Grandview, Willingdon, etc.).

Take that money, and build a Skytrain loop around Surrey. Make it possible for people in Surrey to get to other parts of Surrey, without a car. All of a sudden, it becomes more desirable to buy a condo near mass transit, instead of a 2000+ sq ft home out past Langley somewhere.

Vancouver could comfortably support a couple of million extra people within the area currently reachable by Skytrain. It would require people to accept a more urban lifestyle, however.

The problem is that people don't buy homes just for the hell of it. They are usually bought by people who have families and desire a yard and the extra room that usually comes with home ownership. You could build as many transit routes as you like, but families will still choose to live in houses in areas surrounded by other houses. Those areas tend to score pretty low on the old density scale which would make those transit lines awfully inefficient. People need to realize that you could build as many condos as you like, but for families, a house is still the choice for most.

[EastVanMark]

Originally Posted by tintinium

Biking from East Van to Richmond is DEFINITELY not for the faint of heart.

The thing is, you're still commuting. gridlock has not forced you to move or change jobs. While it's commendable that you're cycling such a long distance, that is a LONG way to go that MOST just physically CAN'T do, especially in Vancouver's 4 rainy seasons.

I myself use a pogo stick to get to work. I feel that if they gave more people free pogo sticks, soon the streets would be engulfed by people bouncing to work and we would solve all of our commuting problems. I know that that sounds crazy but judging by some of the "alternatives" (and I use that term loosely) presented here, I was sure it was about 10 posts away from being put forth as an idea.

[EastVanMark]

Originally Posted by agrant

I've experienced it enough to know I'm thankful I don't live on the other side of the river. It just blows my mind why anyone would want to commute through that everyday. I'm sure it takes years off you're life. Btw - I'm not anti Gateway. Not really passionate about it either way. But I think that by doing nothing with the Port Mann is asking for trouble. Also, I'd really like to see more of these future light rail lanes developed, but I guess that's going to have to wait for available funds. I do like the idea of tolling for helping make up those funds.

For young families just starting out,the decision to live on that side of the river is made more out of a need than a want. Most young families simply can't afford to acquire much of a home on the other side of the Fraser. So they sacrifice a long, congested, frustrating drive over the bridge in exchange for a better house and more funds left over to put towards leisure activities. And now as if to add insult to injury, those of us lucky enough to live in Vancouver and not be subjected to crossing a bridge want to deny them the bridge they desperately need.

[Dorian G.]

If you build the bridge, it will raise property values (and property taxes) and the "young families" that are looking for houses will just have to look further out. Land on the other side of the river is cheap largely because it's hard to get there. "Young families" is a great euphemism, isn't it.

[jpick]

Originally Posted by EastVanMark

The problem is that people don't buy homes just for the hell of it. They are usually bought by people who have families and desire a yard and the extra room that usually comes with home ownership. You could build as many transit routes as you like, but families will still choose to live in houses in areas surrounded by other houses. Those areas tend to score pretty low on the old density scale which would make those transit lines awfully inefficient. People need to realize that you could build as many condos as you like, but for families, a house is still the choice for most.

Yeah, but have you seen the size of the yards on some of these new housing developments down the valley targeted at new families?

Actually, you just won't be able to find a new housing development with large yards targeted at families anywhere in the Lower Mainland. The economics no longer exist to make that possible. The new developments are mixed, they'll have detached homes with micro-yards, townhouses, and condo towers.

The new developments are much more dense than what new housing looked like in the '70s and '80s (when I grew up). But they're still 100% car-dependent / transit hostile.

[twoNeurons]

i wouldn't call them transit hostile. They're more dense so hopefully can be served better as a transit hub. Also, many places are actually using the "town village" concept

[twoNeurons]

double post

[agrant]

Originally Posted by tintinium

i wouldn't call them transit hostile. They're more dense so hopefully can be served better as a transit hub. Also, many places are actually using the "town village" concept

"Town village" being a Subway, Save on Foods, Rogers Video, A&W, Starbucks, and a random barber shop? Those?

[twoNeurons]

You'd be surprised how much a save-on-foods in your neighbourhood helps.

With this in mind, I'd just like to say, regarding the planners who planned the whole "City in the park" in Burnaby : WHAT WERE YOU THINKING!

There's thousands of people living in this little condo mecca and not a retail shop in sight, apart from a sad little choices market.

[SpongeG]

yeah thats way that big development on marine drive was able to swoop in and fill the need - thus adding more cars

[SpongeG]

i think people need to remember is busses use the roadways too - and withour a proper network of roads busses are useless

lrt and skytrain sounds nice but is far too expensive when for a lot of it busses can accomplish as much if not more