Fargo-Moorhead developments information

[F-Misthebest]

That's good enough for me. Oh! Did you see that they tore down the US Bank building on 13 & 25 and are beginning to construct that new Town Square Strip Mall. It looks pretty interesting. Also I wanted to know if you liked the buffalo art all over Fargo-Moorhead. I love them. I am so glad that the F-M are finally has public outdoor art!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I really want this Las Vegas Developer to come in and build that mall on the southwest corner of 52nd Ave and I-29. I read on the news website that the developer bought 280 acres of the land. The mall will be 277 acres of wonderful outdoor shopping. This will be a huge (even bigger boom) boom in the south part of the city. I would really like to see a more upscale shopping and office buildings on this part of the city. I think the townhomes in this mall will sell like crazy!!! About the big box retailers I think that Circuit City should be one of them, Super Target, and Von Maur. I think that this being an outdoor mall, more Fargoans and Moorheadians will get to have more exercise.

[Reichert]

Knowing what I do about suburban developments and such I would be inclined to think that a new shopping development out at 52nd Avenue would start the decline of the West Acres area.

All things considered, the West Acres area has remained vibrant for a remarkable period of time compared to other shopping areas in other cities built during the 1970s. In many cases those malls have already been demolished in favor of newer developments.

The West Acres area in general is the least attractive area in Fargo, especially east of 45th Street South. A more attractive shopping area on 52nd Avenue South could spell a rapid demise for the 13th Avenue South retail area. If I'm someone involved in city planning I would develop a plan the day the new shopping center opens for how to redevelop the West Acres area. That area is at most risk of anywhere in Fargo for basically becoming a run down slum area, and many demographers have predicted that sort of result for the area in the next 20 years, anyway.

[F-Misthebest]

Originally Posted by Reichert

Knowing what I do about suburban developments and such I would be inclined to think that a new shopping development out at 52nd Avenue would start the decline of the West Acres area.

All things considered, the West Acres area has remained vibrant for a remarkable period of time compared to other shopping areas in other cities built during the 1970s. In many cases those malls have already been demolished in favor of newer developments.

The West Acres area in general is the least attractive area in Fargo, especially east of 45th Street South. A more attractive shopping area on 52nd Avenue South could spell a rapid demise for the 13th Avenue South retail area. If I'm someone involved in city planning I would develop a plan the day the new shopping center opens for how to redevelop the West Acres area. That area is at most risk of anywhere in Fargo for basically becoming a run down slum area, and many demographers have predicted that sort of result for the area in the next 20 years, anyway.

WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT! The West Acres part of town is not even close to being run down at all. The West Acres Mall has been renovated and remodled and the newly remodled Target helps that area to contiune to grow. This new outdoor mall on 52nd Avenue would probably make the buisiness around the West Acres to try to compete with the new mall and they would try to make it look nicer and more appealing to the people who shop out there.

Also, There are 3 new hotels in town including the Candlewood by Holiday Inn (open), Staybridge Suites by Holiday Inn (opening soon), and Homewood Suites by Hilton (opening soon). There is also going to be two restaurants in the Shoppes at Osgood, here's the website http://www.propertyresourcesgroup.co...did=9&type=com. There looks like there's going to be something else, maybe a restaurant or bank, in the new Holiday Center south Moorhead. If it is a restaurant that would encourage new retailers and officest to move in to the Holiday Center.

[Reichert]

When West Acres was developed in the 1970s it practically devastated downtown Fargo and ripped the vital retail heart right out of it. Downtown was a virtual dead zone from the late 70s until the late 90s when the Renaissance Zone was created and thus finally offered financial incentive for developers and shop owners to creep back downtown.

Logic states that a project as large as the Osgood one will at least have a negative ripple effect on the 13th Avenue retail district. The history of cities in America is littered with examples of prominent shopping areas which have withered in the face of a newer, more exciting shopping area. West Acres and 13th Avenue South may be thriving now (and by anyone's criteria they are), but they will not continue to thrive at this rate with the Shoppes at Osgood opening three miles to the south. It's a brutal fact of life...more shopping options means less shoppers per store, and everyone likes the newer options because they are more convenient, offer different types of stores, and are generally just made to be more appealing.

Downtown was thriving in 1972 when West Acres opened on what was a wide open piece of farmland. By 1975 nearly every downtown retailer moved out there and buildings were empty for block after block in downtown Fargo...and recovery was still more than 20 years away. If there's one thing about history it's that it repeats itself over and over even if it's in different packaging.

13th Avenue west of 45th Street (mostly in West Fargo) is a somewhat different story as those buildings are not only newer but were designed to have significantly more curb appeal to them. These would likely be the survivors of any West Acres area fallout. There's always going to be a need for a Wal-Mart, Lowe's, Menard's, and the other newer box stores in West Fargo as well as the smaller and more attractive specialty stores on the south side of 13th Avenue.

[F-Misthebest]

I agree with part of that. When West Acres was built, downtown Fargo got hit pretty bad. But with the recent renovation of downtown Fargo and Moorhead, more businesses are moving in there then you could believe! The downtown part of the towns are definitely growing and booming if you would. The downtowns are definitely back on their feet in every way shape and form.

If new business want to move to Fargo just three or so miles south of the major commercial buisiness then do it. 13th Ave will do what downtown did, make it more appealing to the people who want to shop there. I would hope, and this is probably what will happen, is that the 13 Ave area would renovate much quicker than the downtown. The downtown took it's sweet old time. I believe if this mall is built on 52 Ave that that will increase the population of the area. Therefore, there will be more shoppers to shop at the new stores and the old ones. You can argue and argue your point until your fingers break off from typing so much, but there is no way on earth that you will get me to believe you.

[Reichert]

Fargo is going to have figure out how to reinvent the 13th Avenue district in away completely unique and different from either downtown or the Shoppes at Osgood. I have some ideas:

Some of the retail is going to have to disappear. But here's the rub...I think the area around I-29, I-94, and 13th Avenue is destined to become Fargo's new central business district at some point, anyway. Downtown Fargo's location just isn't very conducive to a modern day CBD because space is tight and it only has Main Avenue and University/10th Street serving it as major road arteries. Why not take out a portion of the 13th Avenue retail, combine it with the West Acres business park, and throw in a few high rises for a good old fashioned business district located conveniently at the corner of the Interstates? Some of the apartments right by West Acres could go, as well.

The Shoppes at Osgood could take a chunk of the retail business away from 13th Avenue, but boy this could be a helluva opportunity for the West Acres area if they play their cards right. A mixed use central business district with residential condos, office high to mid rises and a healthy amount of remaining retail could be something big, and it would located in a spot easily accessible from nearly anywhere in the F-M area.

[Midwesterner19]

Fargo is a absolutely a suburban town/city.

I will agree that the west side of town is booming from Interstate 29 all the way west for about 5 miles. West Fargo and the Southwestside of Fargo is growing rapidly. They cant build those 5 bedroom homes fast enough and the amount
of strip-malls with chains is very impressive.

However, the area east of Interstate 29 except for a few spotty areas will continue to decline in population. I was on Main Avenue and from 13th to 25th the other day there are many for-lease signs. 1st Avenue from 10th to 25th has scattered homes with for sale signs that are blighted. In fact the entire area from Main to 13th avenue south and University to 25th avenue is flooded with "for rent" and "for sale" signs and modular like poorly constructed homes. Main avenue once you get past Broadway ave to about 10th is also vacant businesses primarily and a several story building that is vacant as are several
other buildings in that immediate area. They have 3 boarded-up buildings one block north of the high-rise also when you are coming into the state from the other side of the bridge.

Downtown has some good bars, but few retail establishments. I moved here in 2004 and the amount of cars driving through the downtown is impressive but you see very little foot traffic at all. People come to the bar or the two martini establishments for a few hours and leave. I think its safe to say that the downtown area except for the bars is pretty much going down-hill despite painting a few vacant buildings in hopes a token tenant coming.

As far as Fargo being a biotechnology/nanotechnology town they do have some of that. But the Fargo MSA still has a per-capita income of 96% the national average (thats slightly below) (according to the Bureau of economic analysis), the average wage for a job is well below that of other cities in the midwest. The average wage for Cuyahoga County, Ohio workers according to the BEA is $41,000 and in the Fargo MSA its about $31,000 and the median cost
of a house in Cleveland is less then Fargo. Cost of living adjusted for wages is very high. Fargo (this doesnt impact me, Im a renter) has very very high property taxes, in fact the mayors election is about one issue the high taxes in town.

I think Fargo will continue to grow at its current pace of 1% a year for a long time (the west side will continue to grow, but it will almost be almost offset by the decline on the east side) It has went from 173,000 to 181,000 people in the metro area and the city proper has gone from 90,000 to 91,000 people according to the census since 2000. Fargo is mainly dependent on birth rates to increase population, as Fargo had a domestic outmigration of people in 2004
I would not consider 1% job growth which is the Bureau of Labor Statistics says happened from Apr to Apr 2005-2006 a "booming economy" but its a stable steady growth economy.

[Midwesterner19]

Originally Posted by F-Misthebest

I found out that the F-M area is approaching the population of 245,000 people. Pardon my french but Holy Crap. That's more then one third of North Dakota's population. O MY GOSH! I AM UNBELIEVEABLY HAPPY ABOUT THIS!

245,000 people in the F-M area, do you know how they derived that information and who the source is?

How much of that is domestic migration, How much of that is births and How much of that is international migration.

If the census is underestimating the number of 181,000 people that much wouldnt that drag per-capita income down from 96% to much lower then that?

[SmileyBoy]

Midwesterner19, you're off on your data of the city and metro. If you look at the data in my sig line, you'll see all the correct data. The May 1, 2005 city estimate from the city of Fargo for the Fargo city pop. is 102,254. Also, the 4-county metro consisting of Cass, Clay, Richland and Wilkin counties according to (the latest) 2005 Census estimates is 209,000. Cass and Clay County alone is 185,000. Your number of 181,000 is actually 2003 data, and it's outdated.

F-Misthebest's figure of 243,000 is claimed to be from someone in the Fargo-Moorhead CVB, and I have recieved no confirmation of that, so I'll stand by the 4-county figure of 209,000 for now, which is straight from the horse's mouth, the Census.

[Midwesterner19]

Originally Posted by SmileyBoy

Midwesterner19, you're off on your data of the city and metro. If you look at the data in my sig line, you'll see all the correct data. The May 1, 2005 city estimate from the city of Fargo for the Fargo city pop. is 102,254. Also, the 4-county metro consisting of Cass, Clay, Richland and Wilkin counties according to (the latest) 2005 Census estimates is 209,000. Cass and Clay County alone is 185,000. Your number of 181,000 is actually 2003 data, and it's outdated.

F-Misthebest's figure of 243,000 is claimed to be from someone in the Fargo-Moorhead CVB, and I have recieved no confirmation of that, so I'll stand by the 4-county figure of 209,000 for now, which is straight from the horse's mouth, the Census.

The 209,000 people in the CSA which includes the Wahpeton micropolitan area, without Richland county the MSA number is 181,000 to 184,000 people.
Pretty much every where goes up if you add the CSA over the MSA.

The ironic thing is the Fargo MSA is much wealthier then the Fargo CSA. According to the Bureau of Economic analysis using the CSA number decreases per-capita income from 96% of the national average to 92% of the national average. Richland County has hardly any economic base outside of agriculture and the community college down there. Which is a very good community college from people who I have talked too.

I wonder how many counties this person who said 243,000 people in the metro area, I mean the economic area from the bureau of labor statistics props it up above 280,000 people I think but that would include Jamestown and Valley City in the economic area. So they can always tout a number of 280,000 people in the Fargo area but it includes everywhere with-in a 2 hour radius.

Either way this shopping complex on 52nd avenue south I think the list I saw earlier most of the very upscale businesses will not come here because the population threshold just is not there. Not even wealthy metropolitan areas like Omaha and Des Moines with 850,000 people and 600,000 people have some of extremely upscale business establishments listed for the potential tenants at the 52nd South devolopment. Its all about population!!

[NanoBison]

I think I'm going to stick with the approximately 210,000 people in the CMSA. That number seems to add up right with the other data I've seen. To address the "for rent/for lease" signs popping up all over the Fargo area east of I-29 would be due to the finish of the academic year. Remember we have some 25,000 college students going to school in town. When a majority of them head home for the summer, it opens up quite a few spots, especially in rental properties and houses near the campus. In fact, most college students know, that the best time to look for an apartment in town is at the beginning of June.

I'm going to have to disagree with the suggestion of moving the CBD to the area occupied by West Acres and the other retail centers. Downtown is already established. It's still the center of the city, spanning outwards from the Red River radially. Sure traffic counts are going up downtown and thats certainly good. As the traffic continues to go up, I'm sure they will convert more of the streets to one-ways.

What we do need, even though this idea is shot down year after year, is a direct connection from the interstate to downtown. The most logical spot would be running parallel, north of Main Avenue meeting up at I29 (1st and 3rd Ave North). The main problem that causes the traffic downtown, other than the increased population, is that there are several dead-ends when trying to move east-west or north-south. Just look at how many blocks split up a street from continuing on.

http://www.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en...01015,0.026951

The other thing that is tricky, is that Fargo city blocks are not as large as other city blocks in bigger cities. So it's going to feel cramped. Frankly, I don't think the previous city planners were thinking that Fargo would grow so quickly and didn't think bigger when drawing the plans for the city until maybe the 70's. By then though, it was already too late. So we need to work with what we have. The two railroads bordering the north and south of the the downtown, don't help much either.

[NanoBison]

The other thing that ticks me off is that the city planners, from what I've heard in history and chatting with the locals, were able to choose where they wanted the interstate to go when it was first being constructed. They decided they didn't want cars driving by downtown and the city so quickly so they built the interstates farther south of the city, where no development was occuring in the 70's yet. In fact, if you goto the Northport Hornbachers, and look at the imagery of historic photos they have lining the walls or the aerial imagery of the FM area on the walls of the Frying Pan downtown, you'll see just how much space there was between the city and the newly constructed Interstates. Talk about a blunder on the city planner's part...

Then there's the issue of school districts and the West Acres area I won't even get started on.....

[NanoBison]

Midwesterner19, what list are you refering to? The one for the Brandt Development or the Las Vegas development? I haven't seen any information, in terms of a website, for that project. Do have a link with that list your talking about. If it's the Brandt development, that list isn't High End establishments. It's getting up there, but certainly not high scale. I would consider these high-scale establishments :

Prada
Gucci
etc....

[Midwesterner19]

Originally Posted by NanoBison

I think I'm going to stick with the approximately 210,000 people in the CMSA. That number seems to add up right with the other data I've seen. To address the "for rent/for lease" signs popping up all over the Fargo area east of I-29 would be due to the finish of the academic year. Remember we have some 25,000 college students going to school in town. When a majority of them head home for the summer, it opens up quite a few spots, especially in rental properties and houses near the campus. In fact, most college students know, that the best time to look for an apartment in town is at the beginning of June..

I was alluding to the "for sale" signs on homes and "for lease" signs on buildings. I doubt any colleges students live on 1st avenue south where all these "for sale" signs on run-down homes are. I was walking down 1st from 25th to 13th and was shocked by the condition of the neighborhood. Main Avenue's sidewalk was all messed up because of construction.

Main Avenue which is a retail corridor also has many "for lease" scattered throughout that thoroughfare all the way from 8th to Interstate 94. I know its industrial but that street is just very unattractive.

Also, the apartment vacancies have been posted on apartment buildings long before the colleges let out. They are very over-built because they over-estimated how fast Fargo was growing.

I will say this though the growth south and west makes up for struggling neighborhoods on the east side!

[Midwesterner19]

Originally Posted by SmileyBoy

Check out the list of possible retailer candidates they're trying to lure to the development!!

(Franchises that I REALLY would like to see in the development I've put in bold)

Beall's
Belk
Bergners
Bon Marche
Bon Ton
Borders Books
Boscov
Burdine's
Burlington Coat Factory
Carson Pirie Scott
Circuit City
Copeland's Sports
Dave & Busters
Dillard's
Elder-Beerman
Emporium
Famous Barr
Filene's
Foley's
Galyans (Now Dick's Sporting Goods)
Gart Bros.
Gottschalks
Great Indoors
Hecht's
Joe Brand
Kaye Home Furnishings
Lazarus Home Store
Lord & Taylor
Macy's
McRae's
Meire & Frank
Mervyn's
Neiman Marcus
Nordstrom
Parisian
Proffitt's
Rich's
Robinsons-May
Rosa's Home Store
Ross Dress for Less
Saks Fifth Avenue
Sports Authority
Stage
Stein Mart
Strawbridge and Clothiers
The Jones Store
Von Maur
Wicke's Furniture
Younkers

Obviously, only a selected amount of these chains would eventually be in the development, but just LOOK at the list!!! we're talking about department stores, here!!!

Sakes Fifth Avenue, Macys and Neiman Marcus??. I mean Fargo has 180,000 people in its MSA and 210,000 people in its CSA. I dont see how this population could meet the population threshold especially considering the per-capita in the Fargo economic area is 92% of the national average. I know they got alot of doctor's and techies per-capita here but I dont see these retailers setting up shop.

You dont even see the following establishments in Des Moines and Omaha (which is the 16th wealthiest per-capita economic area in the country) which have 600,000 people CSA and 850,000 CSA respectively.

Anyway, it doesnt effect me I am a poor college student.

[SmileyBoy]

Just to be clear of everything, so we don't get the wrong impression again:

102,000 in the CITY OF FARGO.
168,000 in the URBAN AREA OF FARGO-MOORHEAD-WEST FARGO-DILWORTH.
185,000 in the MSA.
209,000 in the CSA.

Thank you.

[Midwesterner19]

double post

[Midwesterner19]

I agree the CBD should be located around I-29 and I-94.

The day after I moved to Fargo I found that life here revolves around the West Acres area.

I looked over this thread and pretty much all the major devolopments are suburban. The fact that a quarter of the threads are about bix-box retailers just goes to show how Fargo is all about its newer, suburban areas.

Downtown Fargo has little relevance to the community as a whole, I am sure on the weekends you have 1000 times more people at West Acres and the adjacent area then downtown. I can see why you have every retail establishment almost you could possibly want along that corridor as opposed to downtown.

Fargo has been talking about adding something on the order 25 new housing units downtown and has been touting it as something major for 18 months, I will bet during the time they have been talking about 25 new housing units downtown that they have built a couple thousand new housing units in South-West Fargo near West Acres.

Downtown is really just about 10 or so small bars mixed in with a few specialty shops and vacant buildings. Other then buildings that are from the 60s and 70s probubly they have very very little construction.

[NanoBison]

I would agree with you Midwesterner19 in the respect that downtown Fargo won't be a retail center that ever compares with what's near West Acres. That's not the downtown I would want anyways. We need to keep building up the commercial activity in downtown, and by that I mean entice more businesses (commercial/services/high-tech/banking) to locate downtown. Build some larger residential developments, preferably high-rises that cater to middle-income individuals/families. As the critical mass of people start concentrating in downtown Fargo (like they currently are starting to) you will only have to sit back and watch the retail boom again.

Keep in mind, nothing in the state can ever compare to the West Acres region, but some people get fed up with the same name-brand stores and same-old big box retailers. That's why I like what's happening downtown. It's a change from what you would expect to find in every other decent-sized American city. Plus we do have high end item shops downtown already. The "Red Shoe" which my sister fanatically shops at has many shoes in the several hundred dollar price range. "a.k.a." has designer clothing in the several hundred dollar range as well. If you even want to you can get a $1,000-$4,000 suit at Strauss (not downtown, on 13th). I can get a Filet Mignon steak at Monte's along with a decent glass of wine for $40-$50. Or I can go over to the HoDo and have dinner for that same price range. The point is, the money is definitely there in town. We may certainly not have anywhere near the population that Minneapolis, Chicago, or even Omaha and Des Moines has, but there is a bit of money here. I see the high end shops be smaller local establishments. If the higher-end shops from that other list come to town in the Brandt or LasVegas developments, I don't think they would have a problem. They not only be serving the people of the FM-area but also anyone from around North Dakota, South Dakota, Minnesota, and Saskatchewan (where Winnipeg is ) areas, that don't want to go down to the Minneapolis-St. Paul area to do their shopping. Last I heard, the figure was approaching 500,000-800,000 potential shoppers for the FM area within a certain radius of the city.

Keep in mind too, North Dakota has the highest rate of millionaires per population out of all states in the U.S.

If you make a place a destination, people will come.

[NanoBison]

Here's an idea, and I know this may be far fetched. What if we built another mall, say twice the size of West Acres, built a decent zoo, maybe an amusement park, and definitely a water park, along with a few other "destination" type attractions?

Come up with some packages for people in the cities of Minot, Grand Forks, Bismarck, Missoula, Billings, Winnipeg, where they would have one flight going to Minneapolis (they all have direct flights), that would stop in Fargo, for those who want to shop for a day), and then continue on to Minneapolis for everyone else who was heading there anyways. Same thing for the evening. One flight back at night time that would stop off at Fargo, pick them up and continue on to their final destination. They could shop for a day in the Metro area with a decent ticket rate and the businesses in town could give discounts or something. You know, sort of Fly Fargo for a day $79... or something like that. Of course I don't know what the demand would be, but I know, people already drive more than 100-200 miles to shop here. Lots of Canadian license plates downtown and at the Mall.

They could even advertise it with other special packages like for Birthdays, Mother's Day, Father's Day, Anniversaries, etc... where they could stay in a nice hotel for less and get prime services like health spa and message, manicures. Then they could have the fine dining of downtown.

I think that could possibly fly (pardon the pun) with a litte bit of work.

Any thoughts?

(I'm sure the readers living in the bigger cities are thinking....what is this boy smokin?)

I'm just say this, cause I flown on the planes to Minot, Bismarck, Grand Forks, etc.... they weren't exactly full, if you know what I mean. Fargo's have always been full (usually overbooked, go figure). I think the airlines would love to have the extra money. Some money is better than no money for an empty seat.