The Great Canadian Intercity Transportation Thread

[Vertigo3000]

Originally Posted by Mister F

I was driving to Blue Mountain in a snowstorm last week (there's always a snowstorm). A friend in the car mentioned how much better it would be if you could take a train. It would be a perfect rail route, along with many others that have been abandoned over the years. Sure enough, the municipalities that own the tracks to Collingwood are planning to tear them up while the province has just built the first phase of a new highway. IMO the best change we could make in the way we travel is to concentrate more on rail and less on highways, especially in our more densely populated regions. Be more like Australia and Scandinavia and less like the US.

They already ripped them out. It's now a trail. They got rid of them 3 years ago. But I do agree that there needs to be some sort of alternative to the car to get here. 2 million visits a year go to Wasaga Beach and 500 thousand to Blue Mountain/Collingwood and they mostly come from Toronto

Source: I live 4 blocks from where they once were and I can't recall where the numbers of visitors came from

[Taeolas]

Maritime Intercity service needs a lot of work. The fact that Acadian was able to shut down New Brunswick and PEI from October to April was very telling.

Maritime Bus has replaced Acadian now, and seem to be doing OK all things considered; but our connections between the cities, and between the Maritimes and the rest of North America are horrible.

I've mentioned it in other places, but for New Brunswick, I see the following improvements desperately needed:

* 4 lane highway, Freddy to Saint John.
* Trans-Maine Highway (AND Railway), St Stephen to Quebec.
* Passenger Rail connections to Saint John from Portland, Maine.
* Bus (Greyhound/Amtrak?) from Bangor and Portland to St. Stephen and Woodstock (They probably couldn't operate any further into the province).
* Improved bus service to Montreal by way of Trans Maine route.
* Rebuilt passenger rail links between NB's southern cities.
* Another direct rail link Moncton->Saint John->Montreal (See Trans Maine corridor).

Admittedly most of that is just a pipe dream, given economic and population realities, but we desperately need better connections to the rest of North America. Plane is too expensive, the road network is horrible, and the rail network's been torn up, so it leaves us needing to do a LOT of work no matter what.

As is, as far as I can tell, if you want to get from a Maritime city by non-Air routes, your only options are to get to Montreal (by Train and/or bus) and catch routes from there. We really should have better connections to Bangor and Portland to help connect to the rest of the continent.

A lot is dependent on that Maine corridor; it's been a sore thumb dividing the Maritimes from the rest of Canada for centuries; if we had that route, it would help connect us better, not just to the ROC but to the States too. So yes, I'm hoping this current/latest proposal can gain enough traction to go through.

[eternallyme]

Originally Posted by Taeolas

Maritime Intercity service needs a lot of work. The fact that Acadian was able to shut down New Brunswick and PEI from October to April was very telling.

Maritime Bus has replaced Acadian now, and seem to be doing OK all things considered; but our connections between the cities, and between the Maritimes and the rest of North America are horrible.

I've mentioned it in other places, but for New Brunswick, I see the following improvements desperately needed:

* 4 lane highway, Freddy to Saint John.
* Trans-Maine Highway (AND Railway), St Stephen to Quebec.
* Passenger Rail connections to Saint John from Portland, Maine.
* Bus (Greyhound/Amtrak?) from Bangor and Portland to St. Stephen and Woodstock (They probably couldn't operate any further into the province).
* Improved bus service to Montreal by way of Trans Maine route.
* Rebuilt passenger rail links between NB's southern cities.
* Another direct rail link Moncton->Saint John->Montreal (See Trans Maine corridor).

Admittedly most of that is just a pipe dream, given economic and population realities, but we desperately need better connections to the rest of North America. Plane is too expensive, the road network is horrible, and the rail network's been torn up, so it leaves us needing to do a LOT of work no matter what.

As is, as far as I can tell, if you want to get from a Maritime city by non-Air routes, your only options are to get to Montreal (by Train and/or bus) and catch routes from there. We really should have better connections to Bangor and Portland to help connect to the rest of the continent.

A lot is dependent on that Maine corridor; it's been a sore thumb dividing the Maritimes from the rest of Canada for centuries; if we had that route, it would help connect us better, not just to the ROC but to the States too. So yes, I'm hoping this current/latest proposal can gain enough traction to go through.

Although it would be a US project, I-395 needs to be extended along the ME-9 corridor from Bangor to Calais to join up with NB-1...

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by Taeolas

Maritime Intercity service needs a lot of work. The fact that Acadian was able to shut down New Brunswick and PEI from October to April was very telling.

Maritime Bus has replaced Acadian now, and seem to be doing OK all things considered; but our connections between the cities, and between the Maritimes and the rest of North America are horrible.

I've mentioned it in other places, but for New Brunswick, I see the following improvements desperately needed:

* 4 lane highway, Freddy to Saint John.
* Trans-Maine Highway (AND Railway), St Stephen to Quebec.
* Passenger Rail connections to Saint John from Portland, Maine.
* Bus (Greyhound/Amtrak?) from Bangor and Portland to St. Stephen and Woodstock (They probably couldn't operate any further into the province).
* Improved bus service to Montreal by way of Trans Maine route.
* Rebuilt passenger rail links between NB's southern cities.
* Another direct rail link Moncton->Saint John->Montreal (See Trans Maine corridor).

Admittedly most of that is just a pipe dream, given economic and population realities, but we desperately need better connections to the rest of North America. Plane is too expensive, the road network is horrible, and the rail network's been torn up, so it leaves us needing to do a LOT of work no matter what.

As is, as far as I can tell, if you want to get from a Maritime city by non-Air routes, your only options are to get to Montreal (by Train and/or bus) and catch routes from there. We really should have better connections to Bangor and Portland to help connect to the rest of the continent.

A lot is dependent on that Maine corridor; it's been a sore thumb dividing the Maritimes from the rest of Canada for centuries; if we had that route, it would help connect us better, not just to the ROC but to the States too. So yes, I'm hoping this current/latest proposal can gain enough traction to go through.

As I mentioned earlier in this thread I did bus from Ottawa to Fredericton on Christmas Eve and it took 16 hours (leaving Ottawa at night and arriving in Fredericton at noon). The 3AM transfer at Riviere-du-Loup in a gas station with room for ten people inside was the kicker.

The majority of what you've listed is certainly pipe dream-ish and dependent on Maine building their Trans-Maine Highway, which would benefit the Maritimes as well as Eastern and Southern Quebec. Perhaps someday we'll see that built.

The twinned highway between Fredericton and Saint John is coming slowly in pieces. Welsford and Petersville sections are currently twinned. At this point it's just a matter of twinning GBW-Welsford, between Welsford-Petersville, and from Petersville-Oromocto. There's easily enough room, the only work to be done is to negotiate with CFB Gagetown for alterations to their base (as the highway is expanding). I'd like to see this completely twinned in ~ten years.

Extending Amtrak to Saint John from Portland would actually be amazing. This would take coordination with America's Amtrak, the Maine Government, and NB's overlords, Irving. For Irving, where's the will in wanting to get people onto trains instead of driving in cars which have to stop at Irving gas stations and Irving Big Stops? There's no incentive whatsoever.

(ROC, invest in NB so we don't have to be slaves to a monopolized economy.)

The rail links are also possible but, again, see above.

[MTLskyline]

I noticed in the Northern NB thread that VIA Rail will no longer be serving northern NB because certain rail lines in that area are being abandoned by CN.

Not great news.

I think that passenger rail service should be run at the provincial/regional level rather than at a broad national level. After all, Canada is a confederation of regions. I don't think it will ever be that desirable to take a train from Halifax to Montreal via Rimouski or from Toronto to Vancouver (nor will it ever be cost effective to operate).

NS and NB could team up and operate an intercity rail line between Halifax, Moncton, Saint John and Fredericton. I think it could be a solid alternative to driving for a lot of people if there are frequent enough departures (say two per day to start off, one in each direction in the morning and evening). Moncton to Halifax takes over 4 hours at the moment by train, so some investments would have to be made to make it comparable time-wise to driving (which takes half the time).

If it is successful they could add:
* From Moncton to northern NB up to Matapédia (connection with the existing Gaspé train that would be operated by Quebec).
* From Saint John to Portland, Maine
* From Saint John to Montreal via Fredericton and Sherbrooke (the old CP Atlantic route that was operated by the infamous Montreal, Maine and Atlantic...).

Other proposed rail operators (not sure where the existing lines are, just speculating):
Quebec (would continue to operate "The Corridor" jointly with Ontario)
Ontario (has the density to make a pretty good system)
Manitoba/Saskatchewan/Alberta (lots of potential... Winnipeg-Regina-Calgary, Winnipeg-Saskatoon-Edmonton, Regina-Saskatoon-Prince Albert, Lethbridge-Calgary-Red Deer-Edmonton-Fort McMurray?)
BC

[GreaterMontréal]

''Via Rail's Maritime-Quebec passenger service in doubt''

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-s...oubt-1.2513711

[Mister F]

Originally Posted by Vertigo3000

They already ripped them out. It's now a trail. They got rid of them 3 years ago. But I do agree that there needs to be some sort of alternative to the car to get here. 2 million visits a year go to Wasaga Beach and 500 thousand to Blue Mountain/Collingwood and they mostly come from Toronto

Source: I live 4 blocks from where they once were and I can't recall where the numbers of visitors came from

Originally Posted by GreaterMontréal

''Via Rail's Maritime-Quebec passenger service in doubt''

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-s...oubt-1.2513711

Well this has been a depressing page to read. The shortsightedness of our governments really is amazing. The province/feds should buy up abandoned rail lines like this to develop them for passenger service.

[ssiguy]

^ Although the feds can certainly take some responsibility, most of the blame can go onto the public at large.

The reality is that they would not have to cut back the frequency if the demand was there but it's not. Businesses, mayors, councillors, and the general public always cry fowl about losing some {or all} of their so-called "beloved" train service but 99% never take it and I bet most have probably never taken it once.

There is a set amount of federal dollars and remember that every dollar spent subsidizing low ridership routes is a dollar not subsidizing the high ridership routes...............the people who actually take the train are subsidizing the one's who usually don't.

This idea of HSR between Van & Cal is absurd and a horrific waste of funds as no one takes the train in the West and due to the topography it wouldn't be true high speed and still be a hell of a lot slower than flying. The only 2 areas of the country that could support HSR are The Win-Que Corridor and Cal/Edm and that's it.

VIA also screws things up itself. An excellent example is the service to SW Ontario. People in Lon/Win/Sar would gladly take the train to Toronto if it was fast but it's not, infact it's painfully slow. It is a milk run for every Tom, Dick, and Harry town along the route despite the fact that almost all the people in those places have cars and those that don't have Greyhound. There should only be one milk run per day between Lon-Tor in each direction and all others from Win/Sar should be London-Toronto non-stops.

It's all very touchy feely to have train service but the reality is that most people will never use it and even fewer would care. Except for the 2 corridor routes I think all train service in Canada should only run during peak summer times.

[Aylmer]

Actually, there were some rather popular and well-used local routes (a lot of them dayliners) in the mid 1980s. However, VIA's funds were slashed literally in half, so a good number of them were discontinued. Unsurprisingly, this also lead to a halving of ridership, which justified more cuts, and so on.

Transportation is always chicken-and-egg. And cutting funding in half is like cutting the chicken in half, which isn't conducive to egg-laying.


There are a lot of potentially popular routes as much in the corridors you mentioned and a lot outside of it (Windsor[NS]-Halifax, Halifax-Moncton-St.John, Regina-Saskatoon-St.Albert, Winnipeg-Brandon, extension of Senneterre line to Rouyn, etc.), but it's hard to innovate when the only thing you can concentrate on is keeping your head above water. Even when VIA does start to do better, it's funding still gets cut and cut again.

Once VIA gets properly funded and can the flexibility to change and update itself, we'll see passenger rail once again gain some traction. The train itself has a very positive image: all they have to do is make it accessible, convenient and competitive with the car and plane.



Also, I'd just like to point out that highways, as expensive as they are compared to rail, are subsidised 100% both in construction and maintenance and in their sizeable health, societal and economic costs. I don't see why rail should build and run itself any more than our roadways should.

[Mister F]

^Exactly. There were many popular routes that were eliminated. Service wasn't cut because of lack of ridership, ridership dropped because service was cut. On routes with low ridership, it's because the service is slow and infrequent. If governments put anywhere near the amount of resources into rail that they put into highways, we'd have a much larger, more popular system.