The Metro Vancouver Retail Thread

[mr.x]

Originally Posted by casper

I have only traveled to a few major cities: Shanghai, Taipei, Tokyo, New York, Miami, San Francsico, New York, London, Paris, Berlin, Zurich, Barcelona, Istanbul, Lisbon, Geneva, Melbourne, and Sidney .

Most cities I have been to (except China and parts of the US) do not spear to be focused on a having a big shopping center in their downtown core full of chain stores operated by Multinational corporations. What tends to dominate is a lot of street front shops, many locally owned and operated. Major department stores in Europe tend to be stand alone.

Year after year, the shops in enclosed shopping centres in Canada individually are taking up more square footage the local companies are being replaced by major international brands. I think Pacific Centre is fine the way it is. If it wants to grow a block or two one way or another that is fine but I don't think that should be the focus.

*Sydney

The cities you just listed either have the population density to support nearly all forms of retail and/or they have the climate for street front shops. We're never going to be Europe, it's a fool's utopian dream.

There's a good reason why downtown Vancouver has lost a lot of its regional retail market share (think large malls in suburbs) and there's nothing to compete in downtown. That and our climate, like ever wonder why whenever it rains Robson Street is empty but Pacific Centre becomes super crowded?

[officedweller]

Apart from the City not wanting enclosed malls rather than streetfront stores, there's also the absence of large consolidated parcels downtown for new complexes.

Most of the older office complexes have retail concourses below them -

Bentall Centre
http://www.bentallcentre.com/retail

Royal Centre
http://www.brookfieldofficepropertie...maps-4705.html

Harbour Centre
http://harbourcentre.com/stores/

Sinclair Centre
http://www.sinclaircentre.com/?link=list_of_retailers

Waterfront Centre
http://www.thewaterfrontproperties.c...ges/Shops.aspx

Vancouver Centre
http://mobilescenes.com/vancouvercen...tory-retailers

It's noteworthy that none of these has sustained itself as more than service centre stores or food courts for the office buildings above.
Pacific Centre (which is also fed by office towers above) is the only exception.
i.e. You don't see duplicate locations of major chain clothing stores in them the way that larger office complexes such as First Canadian Place in Toronto have major retailers. It may be in part, that the office complexes are too small for critical mass of customers.

First Canadian Place
http://myfirstcanadianplace.ca/StoreDirectory.aspx

Toronto Dominion Centre
http://www.tdcentre.com/en/directory...StoresA-Z.aspx

Royal Bank Plaza
http://www.oxfordurbanretail.com/pro...ank-plaza#tab2

All of these are on the main PATH spine from Union Station with thousands of commuters each day passing through.
Toronto office complexes off of the main corridor seem to have more service oriented stores.

[casper]

Originally Posted by mr.x

*Sydney

The cities you just listed either have the population density to support nearly all forms of retail and/or they have the climate for street front shops. We're never going to be Europe, it's a fool's utopian dream.

There's a good reason why downtown Vancouver has lost a lot of its regional retail market share (think large malls in suburbs) and there's nothing to compete in downtown. That and our climate, like ever wonder why whenever it rains Robson Street is empty but Pacific Centre becomes super crowded?

Most of those cities lack a downtown mall that is bigger than Pacific Centre.

[Vin]

Originally Posted by casper

Most of those cities lack a downtown mall that is bigger than Pacific Centre.

Can you list the cities with downtown malls smaller than PC?

[casper]

Originally Posted by Vin

Can you list the cities with downtown malls smaller than PC?

Pacific Centre Mall is 129,506.8 sq-m. (per wikipedia) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...alls_in_Canada

The following list is the world largest shopping centres:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o..._biggest_malls

You will notice most major cities in the world do not show.

Berlin Large shopping centres are under 100,000 http://berlin-enjoy.com/the-5-best-s...eas-in-berlin/

Paris is not a big shopping centre city. It is mostly street front shops.

Melburne and Sydney - The Chadstone claims to be the largest in the southern hemisphere. It is also smaller than Pacific Centre https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chadstone_Shopping_Centre

Tokyo is a weird city. It is in love with Department stores. There are some of these 4-5 story markets but they are not that big. Department stores may die out in the rest of the world but they will service in Japan.

Zurich - Other than the plaza under the main train station I don't remember every being in a shopping centre.

[Vin]

Originally Posted by casper

Pacific Centre Mall is 129,506.8 sq-m. (per wikipedia) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...alls_in_Canada

The following list is the world largest shopping centres:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o..._biggest_malls

You will notice most major cities in the world do not show.

Berlin Large shopping centres are under 100,000 http://berlin-enjoy.com/the-5-best-s...eas-in-berlin/

Paris is not a big shopping centre city. It is mostly street front shops.

Melburne and Sydney - The Chadstone claims to be the largest in the southern hemisphere. It is also smaller than Pacific Centre https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chadstone_Shopping_Centre

Tokyo is a weird city. It is in love with Department stores. There are some of these 4-5 story markets but they are not that big. Department stores may die out in the rest of the world but they will service in Japan.

Zurich - Other than the plaza under the main train station I don't remember every being in a shopping centre.

However, you forget the fact that their downtowns have multiple quality malls, and would be significantly larger if the square footages are combined. PC only seems big because of the Holt Renfrew and Nordstrom wing. It is actually not a single mall in a single retail podium. Paris does have those old-school covered malls (galleries) built in the 1800s. It doesn't have huge modern city malls because it is of the old world. Vancouver is a relatively new city, and there are vacant spots to build quality downtown malls (although the available spaces are shrinking). For the lack of old world charm, new world cities need to compensate by having modern and innovative structures.

Regarding your list of the word's biggest malls, almost all of them are in the suburbs. The list doesn't tell us about downtown malls in the cities that you mentioned.

[theKB]

What about the shopping streets in european cities. Those could almost be looked at as malls since they are largely pedestrian only areas. Frankly that is what the concept of a mall is based on.

Obviously you can't pull hard data from something like that but I don't understand why this isn't something to be evaluated for this city.

[etceteraism]

Originally Posted by memememe76

When you have days like today, I do not feel Vancouver needs another mall.

This is an excellent point. Retail sales in Vancouver is very dependent on the weather. Years ago when I worked in retail at Metrotown, there would be huge swings in sales between our store and our location on Robson street depending what it was like outside. We had great sales in the wintertime and on really wet days when Robson would falter, but have a beautiful sunny weekend like we just had and our store would be dead while Robson was knocking their targets out of the park. I still complain about the fact that PC and Robson have almost identical retailers, but given people's inclination to shop inside/outside depending on weather it makes sense.

[Vin]

Originally Posted by theKB

What about the shopping streets in european cities. Those could almost be looked at as malls since they are largely pedestrian only areas. Frankly that is what the concept of a mall is based on.

Obviously you can't pull hard data from something like that but I don't understand why this isn't something to be evaluated for this city.

In our city, we need good anchors and a concentration of stores to succeed. Evidently many retail businesses fail on linear outdoor retail streets. Most streets with ground retail are pretty dead downtown, even on a nice sunny day. The exceptional ones are those built next to big stores, existing malls/retail anchors or transit stations, or traditionally established shopping streets (Davie, Denman and Robson). But I know we can do better than that.

[Vin]

Originally Posted by etceteraism

This is an excellent point. Retail sales in Vancouver is very dependent on the weather. Years ago when I worked in retail at Metrotown, there would be huge swings in sales between our store and our location on Robson street depending what it was like outside. We had great sales in the wintertime and on really wet days when Robson would falter, but have a beautiful sunny weekend like we just had and our store would be dead while Robson was knocking their targets out of the park. I still complain about the fact that PC and Robson have almost identical retailers, but given people's inclination to shop inside/outside depending on weather it makes sense.

But how often do we have excellent weather in Vancouver? There are many mall designs with natural lights to enter, and even ones with outdoor garden and food patio areas that enable people to enjoy good weather. It really depends on the design, and PC mall is way below that benchmark.

[spm2013]

....

[officedweller]

Expansion of Holt Renfrew Vancouver - Vancouver, BC - 2016 - In Progress

http://www.jansongoldstein.com/retail.php

[connect2source]

Originally Posted by officedweller

http://www.jansongoldstein.com/retail.php

I wonder when Atmosphere is out? I'm also curious as to whether this includes any restaurant plans in the originally planned Holt's Cafe space.

[officedweller]

No idea, but I was surprised to see a date and "in progress" - so it sounds like it will happen. It'll be interesting to see how it will be connected, because there's an elevational difference between the floors of the existing store and the Atmosphere/Sport Chek space.

[spm2013]

....

[sacrifice333]

If ever there was an opportunity for a large parcel redevelopment with inclusion of a large-scale mall component I would suggest it to be the Canada Post building.

Who knows if the current and or future owners agree...

[officedweller]

My concern would be that the Canada Post Building is too far from any SkyTrain Station, and with all the institutional uses in the area, the east end of Georgia is still a dead zone at times (compared to Robson or Burrard).

[connect2source]

The ideal location would have been the Eaton's / Sears building. I would have loved to have seen Nordstrom take the top 3 - 4 floors then 3 - 4 floors of an open and airy atrium style extension to Pacific Centre below and unlike the previous 'atrium' attempt ( where the current Holt's is ) this one would have worked as it would have flowed through to Robson and connected all anchors and Robson and Granville Streets. Eaton's greatly benefitted from this location for years as everyone passed through it from Robson to Pacific Centre, the Robson and Howe entry of Eaton's was like a vacuum.

The 3 - 4 storey atrium IMO would have become an amazing focal point and gathering place and would have looked much better than the 1990's attempt.

[Vin]

Another good mall location would be the row of shops fronting Robson next to H-Mart (where Japadog is), and extends all the way to the parking lot behind it.

Would be nice to see a 5-6 storey atrium podium, with perhaps a basement food centre like the Food Republic of Singapore (Japadog and other restaurants could be relocated there). This mall could have Printemps, Uniglo or Harrod's as the anchor tenant, occupying first 3 floors, and perhaps an urban French supermarket and bakery occupying part of first floor and basement. The upper floors can be boutique stores or even a furniture retail floor.

Place a 40-storey hotel/residence on the mall podium. The top of the podium could be an open-air pool/spa and a lounge/roof-top restaurant.

Now that would be real jazzy.


http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Food_Republic
http://departmentstoreparis.printemps.com
http://mobile.harrods.com/mt/www.har..._Brand_Traffic
http://www.uniqlo.com/us/


Something like this:

Originally Posted by Vrooms

Some pics Plaza Singapura from flickr:

Plaza Singapura by chooyutshing, on Flickr

Plaza Singapura by chooyutshing, on Flickr

Plaza Singapura sizzlin' facade just completed recently... by williamcho, on Flickr

Originally posted at skyscrapercity

Or this:

Originally Posted by Mith252

Some pics I took of Wisma Atria.


https://fbcdn-sphotos-c-a.akamaihd.n...18880158_n.jpg

https://fbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.n...18535095_n.jpg

https://fbcdn-sphotos-c-a.akamaihd.n...66534096_n.jpg

https://fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.n...71292695_n.jpg

https://fbcdn-sphotos-d-a.akamaihd.n...00758532_n.jpg

https://fbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.n...87062710_n.jpg

Or this:

Originally Posted by SomeFormOFhuman

By the way, these malls (3 of many) are all located along the same shopping street in Singapore.

[LeftCoaster]

Yeah orchard road, only one of the highest end shopping streets in the world. There are about 5 Louis Vuittons on that street. Don't really understand how people expect this kind of opulence in Vancouver between H-Mart and japadog...

Vancouver may punch well above its weight in high end retail, but it's not one of the worlds preeminent luxury hubs like Singapore.