Great Canadian Indoor Pedestrian Networks

[Chadillaccc]

Originally Posted by Martin Mtl

Not in Montreal's case. Like I said before, René-Lévesque and De Maisonneuve are almost devoid of pedestrian traffic, even at rush hour. It's quite remarquable actually.

Oh I didn't see that. Are you sure that it's due to the underground? Or could it also be partially due to at-grade pedestrian routing?

[floobie]

I wasn't aware that so many other Canadian cities had above/below grade pedestrian networks.

My opinion of the +15 in Calgary (the only one I've experienced) is mixed, but mostly positive. Yes, it definitely sucks people off the streets a bit. But, from what I've observed, it isn't that dramatic. Sure, when it's cold out, everyone uses the things. And, why not? I hate the cold. If I can get around downtown without exposing myself to -20º weather, I'm totally down. But, what I've noticed is that people will generally go outside when it's nice out. The +15 system can certainly spare one from dealing with the elements, but it's often pretty indirect. Going outside is often faster, especially for trips longer than going across the street, so there's definitely still incentive to go outside. I don't think the situation is too dire. We'll have more perpetual street level bustle as the downtown residential population increases anyway, and it is.

What I would LOVE to see, even though I know it'll never happen, is integrating transit with the +15 system. Instead of having the 7th avenue LRT at street level, elevate it to +15 (or +30) level. Damn that would be cool.

[Chadillaccc]

Well the future subway lines will of course be connected to the indoor system, at at least two of the stations on the 201 line (Bankers Hall, City Hall) and two of the stations on the 203 line (Eau Claire, Stephen Avenue), so that's something at least.

[Beedok]

I still don't get how an infrastructure system that allows high pedestrian traffic, retail density, and plenty of quality public spaces (large areas around fountains, high quality material, etc.) is suddenly non-urban and bad because it's designed in a way that protects people from cars. Is breathing in exhaust really that important to the urban experience in your mind? Or trying to avoid being nudged into traffic thanks to an overcrowded sidewalk? Maybe it's the pigeon droppings that you're longing for?

I mean yes, sunshine and fresh air is nice, but you're only getting marginally more sunshine in the urban canyons of a downtown and the air quality is going to be lower outside than inside (except maybe on the weekend).

[SignalHillHiker]

Because they look and feel like this:

• Video Link

Instead of this:

• Video Link

[Martin Mtl]

Originally Posted by Beedok

I still don't get how an infrastructure system that allows high pedestrian traffic, retail density, and plenty of quality public spaces (large areas around fountains, high quality material, etc.) is suddenly non-urban and bad because it's designed in a way that protects people from cars. Is breathing in exhaust really that important to the urban experience in your mind? Or trying to avoid being nudged into traffic thanks to an overcrowded sidewalk? Maybe it's the pigeon droppings that you're longing for?

I mean yes, sunshine and fresh air is nice, but you're only getting marginally more sunshine in the urban canyons of a downtown and the air quality is going to be lower outside than inside (except maybe on the weekend).

Quality public space ? They're just corridors line-up usually with the cheapest stores. The larger public space are fill with cheap food courts.

The way you describe the experience of walking in an urban environnement makes it look like a nightmare that we have to avoid by flocking underground, and therefore living the streets just for cars. It surprises me that anyone who has a passion for urban life would think like that. Do you really think that it's preferable to go from one underground shopping mall to another through a maze of dark tunnels more interesting than walking on Sainte-Catherine ?

[esquire]

^ For what it's worth, the ones in Winnipeg are generally not that busy other than on days that are very rainy or very cold. They are largely functional... no one walks in them for the sheer beauty of it. However, skywalks make downtown Winnipeg more liveable... I honestly don't see how it would be any better if all of the overhead connections were severed. It's not like there is a retail wonderland on the 2nd floor that would otherwise be on the streets.

[MalcolmTucker]

The interesting thing about Calgary's is the system was a response to pedestrian capacity issues on downtown streets, in the same plan that eventually led to the transit street (7th Ave), from the late 60s iirc.

[Beedok]

Originally Posted by SignalHillHiker

Because they look and feel like this:

Instead of this:

They're filmed in shaky cam with poor focus as opposed to by professionals who spend half the video on one busker?

Originally Posted by Martin Mtl

Quality public space ? They're just corridors line-up usually with the cheapest stores. The larger public space are fill with cheap food courts.

Have you been on the streets? Ottawa with it's lack of an indoor network has the exact same sorts of stores you find in Toronto's network, only with less inviting entrances and more closed off seating areas. The streets consist of sidewalks that are pushing their limit, and the cars driving past are noisy and smelly. The buildings try to ignore the streets and there's almost no plazas or courtyards to speak of. Sure a foodcourt isn't great, but at least Toronto's network has large plazas with fountains and such all over the place, public seating a plenty and so forth.

Originally Posted by Martin Mtl

The way you describe the experience of walking in an urban environnement makes it look like a nightmare that we have to avoid by flocking underground, and therefore living the streets just for cars. It surprises me that anyone who has a passion for urban life would think like that. Do you really think that it's preferable to go from one underground shopping mall to another through a maze of dark tunnels more interesting than walking on Sainte-Catherine ?

To be perfectly honest? Yes. I love the feeling of being under ground, as if the city is some great beast and I'm deep in the belly and the very heart of everything. Sure some streets are higher quality than some pedestrian networks, but overall the pedestrian networks win. I think most people around here have an obsession with the historic so they don't like pedestrian networks, but to me urban is urban and heavy pedestrian traffic with lots of shops and no exhaust is better.

[Martin Mtl]

Well, then we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one

[Cyro]

Originally Posted by SignalHillHiker

Because they look and feel like this:

• Video Link

I understand the point your trying to make with the videos.
(barren, desolate etc.)

Although you see something off in the video?
There are only a smattering of vehicles on the street, virtually no people, Parking lots empty?
What time was this video taken? At Sunrise on Sunday morning?
Maybe if the video poster took it during a week day when there are actual people in the buildings it would be a little more accurate.

[speedog]

Originally Posted by Martin Mtl

Quality public space ? They're just corridors line-up usually with the cheapest stores. The larger public space are fill with cheap food courts.

The way you describe the experience of walking in an urban environment makes it look like a nightmare that we have to avoid by flocking underground, and therefore living the streets just for cars. It surprises me that anyone who has a passion for urban life would think like that. Do you really think that it's preferable to go from one underground shopping mall to another through a maze of dark tunnels more interesting than walking on Sainte-Catherine ?

Great debate that is developing here.

For myself, I worked in Calgary's downtown core for 19 years (1981-2000) - when I worked downtown I actively used Calgary's +15 system during inclement weather but on any day that it wasn't raining or a blizzard, I was outside at street level no matter the season. I enjoyed the interaction I felt I got from street level businesses more than walking around in an indoor mall environment and the fact that there may be some vehicles around me didn't bother me in the least bit. Fast forward to today, some 14 years later, and I can honestly say that there is nothing about Calgary's +15 system including all of it's retail and eating establishments that makes me wish to visit it - any visits I make to downtown Calgary are most often to the street level environment. Then again I'm not a mall person and enjoy outdoor shopping areas like Calgary's Kensington or Inglewood a lot more than any indoor shopping area - to me an urban environment is still going to include some cars and all the positives and negatives that come with them. I'm either going to walk, cycle or drive to a shopping destination and as such, I'm more than ready to accept that there'll be vehicles where I'm at in an outdoor environment - it's not that big if a deal to me. Calgary's street level retail and restaurant environment is changing quickly - Stephen Avenue, 1st Street SW are developing very nicely and there's Chinatown as well.

[SignalHillHiker]

Yeah, I've no idea when it was filmed. Looks like early morning on a Sunday to me.

There aren't many videos of Winnipeg. And that's the only one of Osborne Village I could find that showed the street but wasn't filmed during a major festival.

[VIce]

Googling about, Calgary's +15 was apparently the set of a weird dark comedy about living inside forever.


• Video Link

[CanadianCentaur]

In Edmonton, the pedway system is not only expanding to the Arena district. The Kelly-Ramsey Building (right across 101 St from Manulife Place - currently u/c) will be linked to three pedways - one underground to Scotia Place to the south, one at grade or aboveground to the BMO building to the north, and one aboveground skywalk to Commerce Place/Manulife Place.

I've also heard of a future pedway, probably in the form of a skywalk, proposed to go from the BMO Building to City Centre Mall East (which will undergo major redevelopment and is now painted white instead of that horrible yellow colour), but this depends on leasing and tenant requirements.

I wouldn't exactly put Edmonton's current pedway system in the major leagues like Calgary or TO, but I wouldn't think of it as minor-league, either. In short, it's in the middle.

[Beedok]

Originally Posted by speedog

Then again I'm not a mall person and enjoy outdoor shopping areas like Calgary's Kensington or Inglewood a lot more than any indoor shopping area - to me an urban environment is still going to include some cars and all the positives and negatives that come with them.

As someone who's never lived with a family car the urban environment including cars has no positives in my mind, only negatives. They're noisy, dangerous, and pollute. I accept people use them, but I'd rather they be out of sight and out of mind if they're around.

[Cyro]

This thread is interesting but appears to be covered in great detail in another thread started in 2009
It seems very close to a duplicate thread. Maybe it can be combined by Moderators.

>>>> Great Canadian Skywalks!


Winnipeg's system of SkyWalks from 2013

Originally Posted by esquire

^ Halifax has a bigger skywalk network than I seem to remember.

Here is a map of Winnipeg's skywalk system. Most of it is above grade except for the portion around Portage and Main, which is underground.



The network began as a series of one-off connections in the 1970s and then coalesced into an actual "network" in the 1980s. Since then, Winnipeggers (as in most Canadian cities, I guess) have had a bit of an ambiguous relationship with these corridors... they are blamed for hurting street-level activity, but at the same time they are a greatly appreciated amenity on bitterly cold winter days, or windy and rainy summer days for that matter.

Up until the 1990s there were ambitious plans to expand the network to existing buildings including up toward City Hall and the Concert Hall (where there is a separate small underground corridor network not shown on this map for some reason), but those have been scrapped. Only a couple of new links have been added in the past 20 years, although some new projects on the boards will likely incorporate skywalk connections when built.

I should add that there are many other skywalks throughout downtown and the rest of the city that either aren't part of the main network or aren't publicly accessible and therefore aren't shown here. They are a pretty common sight around this city.

[speedog]

Originally Posted by Beedok

As someone who's never lived with a family car the urban environment including cars has no positives in my mind, only negatives. They're noisy, dangerous, and pollute. I accept people use them, but I'd rather they be out of sight and out of mind if they're around.

But vehicles are still a necessary evil even in your life, no?

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by Cyro

This thread is interesting but appears to be covered in great detail in another thread started in 2009
It seems very close to a duplicate thread. Maybe it can be combined by Moderators.

>>>> Great Canadian Skywalks!


Winnipeg's system of SkyWalks from 2013

Skywalk thread is more about architecture and design of actual skywalks as this one is more inclusive and presents the opportunity to talk about the expansion and history of all networks as well as their use in urban environments as well as the pros and cons.

But I wouldn't be opposed to a merge, as long as it stays open to all modes of indoor pedestrian environments.

[Cyro]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

Skywalk thread is more about architecture and design of actual skywalks as this one is more inclusive and presents the opportunity to talk about the expansion and history of all networks as well as their use in urban environments as well as the pros and cons.

But I wouldn't be opposed to a merge, as long as it stays open to all modes of indoor pedestrian environments.

No real disagreement with your points. I just found both threads similar. Both discuss indoor walkways be it above or below ground. Taking that into consideration, history of there use, past and going into the future as well as styles of architecture and how they impact an urban environment could be discussed.

Whatever is decided is fine. A combination of both just seems to incorporate all the facets into one thread.