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  #141  
Old Posted Dec 23, 2020, 3:44 PM
OldDartmouthMark OldDartmouthMark is offline
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Originally Posted by Drybrain View Post
All we have to do is look at the Cogswell to see an area where literally thousands of people were displaced by government fiat to accomodate auto infrastructure. Smaller-scale examples of that can be found across the region, and larger examples in other cities. Some American cities were more or less dismantled for the purposes of running expressways through them. That's not explicitly the fault of cars so much as poor planning--but our societal over-enthusiasm for car infrastructure resulted in the degradation and in many cases total elimination of entire communities. That's not an exaggeration.



Probably hundreds of houses were torn down over the decades to make way for streetscapes that look like this, or this, or this, or this, or this. Every other block has one of these in some areas, and there are a couple where entire blocks have been largely razed and converted to garages. It's strange enough that I had a friend visiting from out-of-town last year remark upon all the "car businesses" in the neighbourhood, and she wasn't a super-urbanist type who would be attuned to that sort of thing. It's not normal to have this many garages and parking lots and so forth littered across a single neighbourhood.

I'm not saying there was any plot to do so, but it was an unfortunate consequence of the under-valuing of urban neighbourhoods and the aforementioned enthusiasm for all things automobile.




No one wants to force anyone to do anything, that's a red herring. The idea is to create more infrastructure for other road users as well and create alternatives, especially at the level of individual neighbourhoods, or adjoining neighbourhoods. If cars have gotten 95 percent of the road space and infrastructure spending over the past half-century, any change in that status quo may appear to be a "war" on the car, but it's just providing more choice. And sure, it will probably mean people's drive time may be lengthened or their convenience mildly curtailed, but that's in the interest of rebalancing things, and creating more convenience, efficiency--and more importantly, safety--for people who choose other modes of transport.

And let's not forget that most people who are cyclists and pedestrians are also drivers. Most people who advocate for cycling infrastructure aren't trying to induce some large-scale social-engineering project to force everyone out of cars and make bikes the dominant means of transportation. This is a false notion. But a city of Halifax's size and compactness (centrally speaking, and in the inner suburbs) can easily become the kind of place where a very substantial percentage of trips happen by bike. Compare to Victoria, where seven percent of commuters cycle to work. That's a city in most ways not much different than Halifax. And seven percent of all trips, not just commuting, happen by bicycle in the city (not CMA) of Vancouver, up from four percent in 2013.

Those cities have less severe winters, but we can look at cities like Ottawa and Winnipeg and Montreal, with longer and/or colder winters than Halifax, and see even better numbers. In some parts of central Montreal, fully one-fifth of trips are by bicycle, and in some parts of Winnipeg, around 15 percent. For that matter, 10 percent of commuting trips originating in the South End already happen by bike. There's plenty of room to expand and improve those numbers throughout the regional centre, which will reduce pollution, reduce congestion, etc.
True enough about Cogswell specifically, as it was part of the failed Harbour Drive project, but generally the 'slum clearance' actions of the 1950s and 1960s weren't just about automobile infrastructure. For example, a large part of the building clearance was done to create a downtown shopping centre, Scotia Square, which specifically was built to bolster the downtown area in an urban sense.

I can't say I know the histories of all the properties you listed, but I had previously found photos from the Halifax Municipal Archives site, showing that an industrial-type business (Cousins - I'm not sure of the nature of their business, but there is a smoke stack visible in the pic) had occupied at least part of the Scotia Chev site you showed. You'll also notice that the Irving station in the picture has been reclaimed for residential - a large apartment/condo building now resides there. See below:



My point about the businesses is that there was a perceived need for them, so the businesses were created. Where they ended up is related to other factors - perhaps the north end, being somewhat of a run down neighborhood in the 1960s/70s was chosen because the city had more lax zoning laws, or perhaps the land was cheap. I don't know that answer to that.

I will say that the neighbourhood where I grew up, in the old section of Dartmouth (hence my forum name), had many auto-related businesses very close to where I lived. From what I remember, people in the neighbourhood liked having those businesses nearby as they could drop off their cars for repair and walk back home. I don't ever recall thinking they were a blight to the neighbourhood. FWIW, just about every one of those businesses have closed over the years and the land used for a residential building.

I don't want to pry, but I am curious as to whether you would have the same opinion of those businesses if they had not been automotive-related businesses? It's not unusual for houses to be torn down to build a business or converted to a business when the zoning allows, so I am wondering where the strong opposition is coming from. Maybe I'm missing something?

The "red herring" was really just me being sarcastic - sorry for that. As you can see by my previous posts, I do support the cycling infrastructure, but I also prefer a situation where everybody is respectful of the 'other side'. Cars aren't going anywhere soon, and I applaud the resurgence of cycling (I used to cycle quite a bit many years ago, until work and family life made it mostly impractical), but I wish we could all just see the other side in a kinder light. I prefer a no-BS atmosphere where loaded opinions don't rule the roost.

I hope I was able to express my opinions well enough so that everybody understands where I'm coming from.
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  #142  
Old Posted Dec 23, 2020, 3:50 PM
OldDartmouthMark OldDartmouthMark is offline
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Originally Posted by Good Baklava View Post
I don’t know if closing the thread is a good solution. The toxicity would probably just move to other threads. Eye-catching titles are just Colin’s style. I think it would bring on the issue of moderator bias if the threads were artificially restricted.

I may disagree with much of what Keith, Moncton, Dartguard and Colin say, but I think it’s important to understand their perspectives, and in some cases there may be ideas I agree with. I don’t think disagreement is bad, in many cases it’s beneficial: imagine how dead the forum would be if we didn’t refute the other’s points!

I can understand why Keith was so upset about the accusation, he’s a SSP veteran and 15 years of on the forum shouldn’t end that way.
Well said, and I agree.
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  #143  
Old Posted Dec 23, 2020, 3:55 PM
The Crow Whisperer The Crow Whisperer is offline
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The debt of Canada is now 1 trillion dollars.

We are already seeing food price hyper inflation, eggs were 3.50 now they are 4 dollars.

The masses will be SO POOR they will be forced into bike lanes and buses because they will not be able to afford a car.

The powers that be are preparing / planning for mass poverty.

Why did Copenhagen switch to bikes in the 70s? The answer: the oil shock, end of the gold standard, end of Bretton Woods post war economic order, economic collapse, neo-liberal austerity cuts, high unemployment and inflation.

Just wait until the carbon tax kicks in by 2030 "you will own nothing" according to the World Economic Forum.
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  #144  
Old Posted Dec 23, 2020, 4:59 PM
The Crow Whisperer The Crow Whisperer is offline
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The Halifax Cycling Coalition is neither grassroots nor progressive, it is good ol' Nova Scotia backslapping gladhanding you-scratch-my-back-I'll-scratch-yours crony machine politics at it's worst.

A World Bank "Global Shaper" was given the plum patronage appointment of Halifax Cycling Coalition boss as a reward for doing such a good job as Dalhousie University Young Tories boss, where he orchestrated the right-wing smear campaign to get NSPIRG, an anti-capitalist org, run off campus.
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  #145  
Old Posted Dec 23, 2020, 5:01 PM
Dartguard Dartguard is offline
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Originally Posted by Good Baklava View Post
To clear up the confusion, I suspect that it’s Dartguard. Before salvos get fired, the mods can check the IP. If I’m right? Forum rules are followed. If I’m wrong? I wasted the Moderator’s time and I apologize to him and Dartguard.
Apology accepted. I am not the new contributor . Its an interesting world view he has. It seems to have triggered some things here. Merry Christmas Baklava. Or Orthodox if that's what you follow.
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  #146  
Old Posted Dec 23, 2020, 5:25 PM
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Good Baklava Good Baklava is offline
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Originally Posted by Dartguard View Post
Apology accepted. I am not the new contributor . Its an interesting world view he has. It seems to have triggered some things here. Merry Christmas Baklava. Or Orthodox if that's what you follow.
Very sorry for making you a suspect, the new user has kicked up quite the storm. He just seemed really familiar with past forum arguments and he's borrowing from a lot of people's points.

Merry Christmas to you as well Dartguard.
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  #147  
Old Posted Dec 23, 2020, 5:28 PM
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Good Baklava Good Baklava is offline
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Originally Posted by TrudeauSockPuppet427 View Post
happy holidays
Happy holidays, you're a funny guy.
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  #148  
Old Posted Dec 23, 2020, 5:50 PM
TrudeauSockPuppet427 TrudeauSockPuppet427 is offline
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Originally Posted by Good Baklava View Post
Happy holidays, you're a funny guy.
I decided I really wasn't helping :-)
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  #149  
Old Posted Dec 23, 2020, 6:38 PM
Dartguard Dartguard is offline
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Originally Posted by TrudeauSockPuppet427 View Post
I decided I really wasn't helping :-)
That is correct. You were not helping. But Merry Christmas anyway as you have yet to snatch the pebble from My or Keith's, Colin's or Moncton's hand.
If you are of a certain vintage you will know what that statement means.
Grasshopper.
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  #150  
Old Posted Dec 23, 2020, 7:01 PM
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Keith P. Keith P. is offline
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Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark View Post
True enough about Cogswell specifically, as it was part of the failed Harbour Drive project, but generally the 'slum clearance' actions of the 1950s and 1960s weren't just about automobile infrastructure. For example, a large part of the building clearance was done to create a downtown shopping centre, Scotia Square, which specifically was built to bolster the downtown area in an urban sense.
This is, of course, exactly correct and quite at odds with the argument being made. You, ODM, have illustrated quite extensively the areas that were cleared back then for Scotia Square et al. While some buildings that have been lost may be regrettable, the bulk of them were slummy, run-down, worn-out structures that were either unoccupied or only occupied as a last resort, as would be clear if anyone looked at your past posts containing such images.

Quote:
I can't say I know the histories of all the properties you listed, but I had previously found photos from the Halifax Municipal Archives site, showing that an industrial-type business (Cousins - I'm not sure of the nature of their business, but there is a smoke stack visible in the pic) had occupied at least part of the Scotia Chev site you showed. You'll also notice that the Irving station in the picture has been reclaimed for residential - a large apartment/condo building now resides there. See below:


I can help you out regarding Cousins at that location on the NE corner of Robie and West. Cousins was a chain of laundries and dry cleaners back then, and that location was their cleaning plant. Their retail outlets were just storefronts, with all items requiring dry cleaning or laundering taken to this plant for that to be done and then returned to the appropriate location. They were around since at least the 1920s as this image suggests:



At some point, I'm unsure when, this became the location of Canadian Linen Supply, who did commercial cleaning for businesses requiring such things, such as restuarants for napkins, uniforms and tablecloths being just one example of their market. They remained there for much of the 1990s until they relocated to Burnside where they remain very much in business. You still see their trucks around town.

Last edited by Keith P.; Dec 23, 2020 at 7:13 PM.
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  #151  
Old Posted Dec 23, 2020, 9:32 PM
Colin May Colin May is offline
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The Cogswell area was a slum prior to being torn down. Let us not go all romantic for an era when public health was a major concern in demolition areas in Europe and N America.
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  #152  
Old Posted Dec 24, 2020, 6:10 AM
OldDartmouthMark OldDartmouthMark is offline
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Originally Posted by Keith P. View Post
This is, of course, exactly correct and quite at odds with the argument being made. You, ODM, have illustrated quite extensively the areas that were cleared back then for Scotia Square et al. While some buildings that have been lost may be regrettable, the bulk of them were slummy, run-down, worn-out structures that were either unoccupied or only occupied as a last resort, as would be clear if anyone looked at your past posts containing such images.
While at times I have been able to pick out some decent-looking masonry buildings form old photos of that area that would have been nice to save, I have to concur with your assessment. My father actually grew up in the neighbourhood that is now in the footprint of Scotia Square, and when he was alive he would tell me many stories of how it was a rough area and how deteriorated it was.

Contrary to the narrative that I read a lot these days on how the poor people were forced from their homes his family's experience was somewhat different. When the city had chosen their street to be torn down and a new shopping centre to be built on it, they actually offered reasonable money to my grandfather for his home. They were not a well-to-do family, in fact they would have been considered to be well below middle-class, but knew how to improve their situation by taking the money and using it to buy relatively cheap property on the outskirts of Dartmouth, where they were able to create a better life for themselves, start a business which was run from their new location, and go from there. So while I'm sure there were cases of people who were forced out of neighbourhoods that they wanted to remain in, my father's family made out quite well and were actually happy to leave there. The net result was an improvement in their lives, as I feel was the actual intent of the action.

It was a different time, and we all mostly enjoy a better standard of living nowadays, so I think it's hard for many younger people to understand how things that would not be accepted today could be the norm 70 years ago. Living conditions were allowed to reach a point that was much lower than would be accepted by the authorities today, IMHO.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Keith P. View Post
I can help you out regarding Cousins at that location on the NE corner of Robie and West. Cousins was a chain of laundries and dry cleaners back then, and that location was their cleaning plant. Their retail outlets were just storefronts, with all items requiring dry cleaning or laundering taken to this plant for that to be done and then returned to the appropriate location. They were around since at least the 1920s as this image suggests:



At some point, I'm unsure when, this became the location of Canadian Linen Supply, who did commercial cleaning for businesses requiring such things, such as restuarants for napkins, uniforms and tablecloths being just one example of their market. They remained there for much of the 1990s until they relocated to Burnside where they remain very much in business. You still see their trucks around town.
Thanks very much for solving that mystery for me! I had seen the photos some months ago, but never really figured out what their business entailed - though a small sign on the Robie Street side did actually give me a hint... but I wasn't completely sure that wasn't a 'side business' located in the building.

I suspect that Cousins was considered a fairly important company in Halifax at the time, as the President of the company was one of the personnel who created the 1945 Master Plan linked to in the 'million population' thread:

Quote:
Allan M. Doyle, President Cousins Limited.
I appreciate your input!
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  #153  
Old Posted Dec 25, 2020, 11:14 PM
Antigonish Antigonish is offline
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Originally Posted by The Crow Whisperer View Post
The debt of Canada is now 1 trillion dollars.

We are already seeing food price hyper inflation, eggs were 3.50 now they are 4 dollars.

The masses will be SO POOR they will be forced into bike lanes and buses because they will not be able to afford a car.

The powers that be are preparing / planning for mass poverty.

Why did Copenhagen switch to bikes in the 70s? The answer: the oil shock, end of the gold standard, end of Bretton Woods post war economic order, economic collapse, neo-liberal austerity cuts, high unemployment and inflation.

Just wait until the carbon tax kicks in by 2030 "you will own nothing" according to the World Economic Forum.
I don't think the trend of a NWO has to do with what we do in Halifax currently, though. Although I admit, I've been watching and listening over the last several years and it's pretty damning about what is currently happening.

That said I don't know what it has to do with bike lanes in Halifax.
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