Port of Halifax eyes relocation of container terminal to Dartmouth

[Keith P.]

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-s...rity-1.3083500

The Port of Halifax says it's looking at relocating a container terminal across to the Dartmouth side of the harbour as it moves to reduce or even eliminate container truck traffic in the cities downtown core.

"We are a long, long way from saying 'This is what we are doing' but we are certainly looking at the art of the possible," says Halifax Port Authority CEO Karen Oldfield.

The Port of Halifax is in the midst of a master planning exercise. The main objective is ensuring the port is capable of berthing and servicing two of the new generation of ultra-large container ships, which are not calling on Halifax today.

"Ultras," as the ships are known, now carry 13,000 or more containers. The largest container ship calling today, CMA CGM Tage, carries fewer than 9,400 boxes.

The port has not specified if one or both of the existing terminals—Ceres at Fairview Cove and Halterm in the city's south end—would move across the harbour. Oldfield was asked by reporters this week whether a Dartmouth-side terminal is an option.

"We have told our master planning consultants, 'Let's look at this,'" she says.

The port has hired WSP Parsons Brinckerhofff, an international transportation consulting company, to report back on the Dartmouth terminal option and a "second objective."

"And that is to look for ways to eliminate or minimize truck traffic in the downtown of Halifax," Oldfield said.

Make it so, for both sites.

[Colin May]

Dumb idea. Cheaper to lengthen Halterm and build out and find a way for trucks to use the existing rail bed from Bedford highway to Halterm.
Anybody who thinks people in Dartmouth will put up with much greater rail traffic obviously know nothing.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by Colin May

Dumb idea. Cheaper to lengthen Halterm and build out and find a way for trucks to use the existing rail bed from Bedford highway to Halterm.
Anybody who thinks people in Dartmouth will put up with much greater rail traffic obviously know nothing.

The South End Terminal is prime land being wasted as industrial lands. Build a housing entertainment complex and link the park to downtown. Would revitalize the whole area and be great for tourism.

[ManWithTheMug]

Originally Posted by Colin May

Dumb idea. Cheaper to lengthen Halterm and build out and find a way for trucks to use the existing rail bed from Bedford highway to Halterm.
Anybody who thinks people in Dartmouth will put up with much greater rail traffic obviously know nothing.

If they were able to locate it where the refinery is now wouldn't the impact be minimal? Trucks could hit the 111 almost immediately and there's already Autoport traffic going that way anyway.

As far as rail traffic goes they'd be looking at adding a couple of freight services a day I imagine? To my knowledge, and correct me if I'm wrong, there's no level crossings that would impact automobile traffic, and if there were, building in the cost to build and underpass would be small in the big scheme of things.

I think it's an idea that's worth looking into considering the extreme positive impact it would have on the peninsula (if they moved Fairview anyway).

[connect2source]

This would be absolutely transformational for Halifax and probably the single most important plan to create a world-class livable area much like the West End or Coal Harbour in Vancouver.

Would eliminated truck traffic, create a cohesive and seamless link between downtown and Point Pleasant Park, much like the link between Downtown Vancouver and Stanley Park.

I've always hoped for something like this, would love to see it happen!

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by ManWithTheMug

If they were able to locate it where the refinery is now wouldn't the impact be minimal? Trucks could hit the 111 almost immediately and there's already Autoport traffic going that way anyway.

As far as rail traffic goes they'd be looking at adding a couple of freight services a day I imagine? To my knowledge, and correct me if I'm wrong, there's no level crossings that would impact automobile traffic, and if there were, building in the cost to build and underpass would be small in the big scheme of things.

I think it's an idea that's worth looking into considering the extreme positive impact it would have on the peninsula (if they moved Fairview anyway).

Two level crossings come to mind that could affect traffic are in Burnside at Wright and Akerley, but typically the container traffic goes out at around 8pm, but I'm not sure when the incoming is. If it's not during rush hour then the impact to traffic would probably be minimal. There's another level crossing at King's Wharf, but that would probably be more of an annoyance to residents than a 'traffic issue'.

I think it's a good idea overall for the reasons mentioned in the posts above.

[Nouvellecosse]

Originally Posted by ManWithTheMug

If they were able to locate it where the refinery is now wouldn't the impact be minimal? Trucks could hit the 111 almost immediately and there's already Autoport traffic going that way anyway.

As far as rail traffic goes they'd be looking at adding a couple of freight services a day I imagine? To my knowledge, and correct me if I'm wrong, there's no level crossings that would impact automobile traffic, and if there were, building in the cost to build and underpass would be small in the big scheme of things.

I think it's an idea that's worth looking into considering the extreme positive impact it would have on the peninsula (if they moved Fairview anyway).

There are a couple of fairly important level crossings like Princess Margaret Blvd which makes the connection between Windmill Rd and the MacKay bridge (as well as providing access to some nearby commercial and residential areas), and the entrance to Kings Wharf and parking areas at Alderney. But aside from the traffic affects, there would no doubt be complaints about additional noise and emissions.

One thing to remember, is that even if it were only a couple more "trains" compared to now, not all trains are created equal, and if the trains were much longer, they would take far longer to pass considering the stretch of track has very low (basically walking) speeds.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Forgot the crossing at Princess Margaret, also there's one at Alderney Landing. Though I think the Burnside crossings would see the most traffic. Alderney landing would be an issue for people dropping off passengers for the ferry, if it happened during rush hour, but there is an overpass for pedestrians in Alderney Landing itself.

The trains I've witnessed coming out of Fairview are quite long, I'd estimate in the 100-ish car numbers - they usually have 2 locomotives up front and 1 in the middle. The speeds through most of Dartmouth would have to be fairly low, but picks up as you get through Burnside. I've waited about 4 or 5 minutes there when a long gypsum train passes through, so I'd expect a similar wait for a container train.

Personally, I don't think any of it would be a major departure from what already happens, as there already is train traffic from Autoport, but it would be more and bigger. Not sure, though, if that would pass the threshhold to trigger a public outcry or not.

[JET]

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

There are a couple of fairly important level crossings like Princess Margaret Blvd which makes the connection between Windmill Rd and the MacKay bridge (as well as providing access to some nearby commercial and residential areas), and the entrance to Kings Wharf and parking areas at Alderney. But aside from the traffic affects, there would no doubt be complaints about additional noise and emissions.

One thing to remember, is that even if it were only a couple more "trains" compared to now, not all trains are created equal, and if the trains were much longer, they would take far longer to pass considering the stretch of track has very low (basically walking) speeds.

Trains spend a lot of time, stopping, backing up, forward, stopping...
Any more train traffic through downtown Dartmouth would be insane. There is also a level crossing at Canal St and where the old Coast Guard buildings are, which was to become a nicely developed state of the art Oceans facility.
A good trade off would be to put the container terminal at the old refinery, only use trucks for containers, and tear up all the tracks along the Dartmouth Waterfront, and develop that land. I'd vote for that.

[Haliguy]

Originally Posted by JET

Trains spend a lot of time, stopping, backing up, forward, stopping...
Any more train traffic through downtown Dartmouth would be insane. There is also a level crossing at Canal St and where the old Coast Guard buildings are, which was to become a nicely developed state of the art Oceans facility.
A good trade off would be to put the container terminal at the old refinery, only use trucks for containers, and tear up all the tracks along the Dartmouth Waterfront, and develop that land. I'd vote for that.

That woudn't work you need a train to service a container terminal or else it is not viable. Truck traffic alone would make it extremly uncompetiive.

[halifaxboyns]

Originally Posted by JET

Trains spend a lot of time, stopping, backing up, forward, stopping...
Any more train traffic through downtown Dartmouth would be insane. There is also a level crossing at Canal St and where the old Coast Guard buildings are, which was to become a nicely developed state of the art Oceans facility.
A good trade off would be to put the container terminal at the old refinery, only use trucks for containers, and tear up all the tracks along the Dartmouth Waterfront, and develop that land. I'd vote for that.

While I like the idea of Halterm moving to Dartmouth - I'm totally seeing what JET is saying here. Which is why I think the article Keith provided is suggesting they are looking pretty big picture.

My thought had always been that if the port stayed where it is; provide a rail link from Dartmouth to Halifax via the 3rd crossing tunnel (I am in favour of the 3rd crossing to help facilitate better transit/lrt). Get the port to help pay for that tunnel - so any rail from the port would not go through Dartmouth - that's an old and slow route and the port wants fast and reliable which the rail cut would be. If my calculations were correct; distance wise it was about the same distance if they cut across the harbour than going through the Dartmouth sub - plus most of the route would be of a faster speed than the Dartmouth line.

If that's not an option - then the whole Darmouth line would need to be upgraded and rethought. I think you'd be looking at potentially tunneling some of it through the core or somehow building an overpass into Dartmouth Crossing (which given the amount of space - would be tough although a tunneled underpass might work).

There are options - just have to figure out the costs. But the comments earlier that the whole port area could be re-imagined is absolutely right. If the port relocation took the grain terminals too; then I could see a fabulous new community all in that area. Although it would all be in a 6-8 storey range since it's painted with viewplanes. But given the space of area that might become available - that doesn't bother me.

[JET]

Originally Posted by Haliguy

That woudn't work you need a train to service a container terminal or else it is not viable. Truck traffic alone would make it extremly uncompetiive.

Then they don't get my vote.

[JET]

Trains through Dartmouth Downtown, go very slow, because it is so winding.
They need to think BIG, get rid of the Downtown Train, maybe the 'Hunnel' over to the railcut would work (and add a car tunnel at the same time), could be a 'win/win' situation.

[Colin May]

Originally Posted by JET

Trains through Dartmouth Downtown, go very slow, because it is so winding.
They need to think BIG, get rid of the Downtown Train, maybe the 'Hunnel' over to the railcut would work (and add a car tunnel at the same time), could be a 'win/win' situation.

A mile long train would extend from the bottom of Maitland to Lyle ( under the MacDonald bridge)
Halterm can be extended to the south and to the east. Trucks can use a new overpass directly over the existing rail bed and connected to the Mackay. Or the rail bed can be strengthened and reinforced with concrete to allow road and rail movement.
The existing port infrastructure north of Halterm will remain in place for grain shipments and other cargo. and passenger traffic.
Moving to Dartmouth would disturb more people than those in Halifax and kill many possible developments - HRM have dreams of developing their waterfront lots for residential development and amended the viewplanes to allow apartment/condo/office towers.
Not to mention another failed attempt to sell the now empty Dartmouth City Hall, the last deal died at the end of September.

[someone123]

I'm not sure you can say much about this until the many alternatives are spelled out and have costs associated with them.

The whole process of choosing infrastructure projects feels extremely political in that some of them get killed before detailed studies are released to the public. Debate is only encouraged within a narrow range of politically acceptable alternatives.

It seems like a lot could be done with the railcut, and a Northwest Arm crossing should be considered. And since the third crossing was evaluated the costs and benefits should be weighed against the idea of moving the container terminal, since that is presumably also going to involve public dollars.

[Colin May]

There are not many choices within the harbour.
The only future problems with Halterm and larger vessels are truck traffic, length of wharf and water depth.
Truck traffic can be solved in the way I described.
HRM and the port authority have to quickly find a solution as any future terminal would not be open when Cogswell closes. Or HRM delays Cogswell for several years until the port makes a decision.
The wharf can be lengthened at the expense of the filling in a portion of the small beach.
The wharf can be expanded to the east without fill and provide increased water depth without being affected by rising sea level.
Moving across to Dartmouth would require a huge amount of fill and the rail line is well above the water.
And in shipping, time is money and moving to Shearwater is a negative in comparison with other locations.
For more information look at the charts; here is an excellent source from a graduate of NSCOGS : http://www.heathergabrielsmith.ca/ma.../halifax2.html
Be sure to explore her website.

[Ziobrop]

Since I'm quoted in the article, I posted additional thoughts Here: http://blog.halifaxshippingnews.ca/2...bably-not.html

TLDR: dartmouth is a non starter. Halterm is not the entire south end complex - only the end container bit. ceres is screwed.

[IanWatson]

Originally Posted by Ziobrop

Since I'm quoted in the article, I posted additional thoughts Here: http://blog.halifaxshippingnews.ca/2...bably-not.html

TLDR: dartmouth is a non starter. Halterm is not the entire south end complex - only the end container bit. ceres is screwed.

Good read.

The Port authority has announced that it is undertaking a study looking at relocating one of the container terminals.

My understanding is that the Port Authority has announced it is undertaking a study to create a strategic plan for the next couple of decades. Looking at the option of moving the port is only one small component of the study, though it's the part of the study that's exciting to the general public. In other words, I think the Port Authority is saying, "Chart our course for the next couple of decades. We'd be remiss if we didn't at least consider the idea of moving the port, so make sure you touch on that."

[Colin May]

Originally Posted by IanWatson

Good read.
In other words, I think the Port Authority is saying, "Chart our course for the next couple of decades. We'd be remiss if we didn't at least consider the idea of moving the port, so make sure you touch on that."

More like the next 4 decades.
From 1979-83 I spent many hours on many days at Halterm, certainly not Mon- Fri and 9-5. If people knew what passes through a container terminal they wouldn't live near one.
Ziobrop used more words than I and sums up the situation better than the planning prof on CBC TV.

[Ziobrop]

Originally Posted by Colin May

More like the next 4 decades.
From 1979-83 I spent many hours on many days at Halterm, certainly not Mon- Fri and 9-5. If people knew what passes through a container terminal they wouldn't live near one.
Ziobrop used more words than I and sums up the situation better than the planning prof on CBC TV.

thanks.