The United States of Europe

[SHiRO]

Originally Posted by The Dear Leader

All I need to name is 1...language.

Weak. Explain India, Canada or other multilingual nations.
Moreover these are real nations, not a federation type entity some of us envision Europe to be...

[SHiRO]

Originally Posted by Exarchus

I'm sure you people can make the distinction between countries with a few native languages (emmigration languages don't count because they don't bring nationalism with them).

And a country like what would the EU be with a full loads of "national" languages, adding the regional languages.

It's like comparing a V2 from WWII and an apocalypse dildo of 1megatons in capacity because both are ballistic missiles. The comparison is just given irrelevant because of the difference of scale.

Only need one word as a reply to this...

India...


Scale? You were saying?

[Exarchus]

I'm not sure India is a great model for Europe though.

[The Dear Leader]

Originally Posted by SHiRO

Weak. Explain India, Canada or other multilingual nations.
Moreover these are real nations, not a federation type entity some of us envision Europe to be...

I've already explained the situation in other multilingual nations. Europe already is in a sense a federation, so why not stop now? What is the driving force behind hardcore Europhiles?

[Exarchus]

I don't think we should go further.

I like the current context with France and Germany conspiring with Russia. Central Europe ranting. Greece and Turkey playing dogfights and Great Britain crusading left and right.

It gets entertaining with the time.

[R@ptor]

Originally Posted by The Dear Leader

To summarize: Using clothing, cars, music etc. to support your argument people somehow have the same strictly defined (ie solely European, not Western) culture is foolish.

So what you are saying, is that people who have the same tastes, habits, opinions and hobbies have less in common than those having the same piece of paper called passport and being born behind the same imaginary lines drawn sometime in the past?

I guess we'll have to disagree here. From Heidelberg it's a 30 minute drive to France, a 2 hour drive to Luxembourg, a 2hour 30 minute drive to Switzerland but a 9 hour drive to northeastern Germany. If I drive those 30 minutes into France, the villages and towns look the same as they do on the other side of the border, restaurants serve the same food, the people share many values and opinions and so on. Even the language is no longer a problem since nowadays everyone under the age of 50 speaks English. Now if I drive to northeastern Germany (for example West Pomerania), I could just as well be on the other side of the world. The people may speak the same language, but everything else is completely different. The values, opinions, even the heritages are quite different.

Originally Posted by The Dear Leader

Being part of a nation is something that you feel, perhaps a state of mind.

Something that you feel??? Can you seriously tell me when the average German feels that he is part of a nation when he hasn't just consumed 10 beers and is watching a world cup soccer match on TV?

[The Dear Leader]

Originally Posted by R@ptor

I guess we'll have to disagree here. From Heidelberg it's a 30 minute drive to France, a 2 hour drive to Luxembourg, a 2hour 30 minute drive to Switzerland but a 9 hour drive to northeastern Germany. If I drive those 30 minutes into France, the villages and towns look the same as they do on the other side of the border, restaurants serve the same food, the people share many values and opinions and so on. Even the language is no longer a problem since nowadays everyone under the age of 50 speaks English. Now if I drive to northeastern Germany (for example West Pomerania), I could just as well be on the other side of the world. The people may speak the same language, but everything else is completely different. The values, opinions, even the heritages are quite different.

Thanks for backing me up...because this is what I wrote earlier on in this thread. You can either look at regional values (not national ones), or you have to include the entire western world. There simply is no such thing as distinctively European set of values, ie a set of values shared by a majority of Europeans and only shared by them.

Something that you feel??? Can you seriously tell me when the average German feels that he is part of a nation when he hasn't just consumed 10 beers and is watching a world cup soccer match on TV?

Don't really understand what you're getting at here. Yes, being part of a nation is something that you feel, it can be something as mundane as having a certain feeling (or no feeling whatsoever) when listening to the national anthem. The "European anthem" has no meaning to me for example.

[SHiRO]

Originally Posted by The Dear Leader

I've already explained the situation in other multilingual nations. Europe already is in a sense a federation, so why not stop now? What is the driving force behind hardcore Europhiles?

Why not stop now?
Aren't it people like you who can't stop complaining about the current situation?

Why not stop now? Because we are in an untransparent, undemocratic, halfway developed form of union in which we can't linger to long before globalisation gobbles us up.

We need to work to a fully functioning FULLY democratic federation, principle of subsidiarity, unified foreign and defense policy (most important!) ASAP!

We got the economic and cultural side right, now there isn't time to lose over the political and military integration and democratisation.

[SHiRO]

Originally Posted by The Dear Leader

Thanks for backing me up...because this is what I wrote earlier on in this thread. You can either look at regional values (not national ones), or you have to include the entire western world. There simply is no such thing as distinctively European set of values, ie a set of values shared by a majority of Europeans and only shared by them.

Values is not the only component of culture. yes Canada, Australia/NZ and 1/2 the US shares a lot of values with Europe. There are a lot of differences in lifestyles between these countries and Europe, differences that simply do not exist between the European countries (or when they do are caused by differences in economical development). Then there is the very strong component of having a shared history and shared contemporary culture (again, there is also a shared contemporary culture and some shared history between all of the western world). Together these things make for a very real European common culture and it is silly to deny this.

[Anakin]

Originally Posted by The Dear Leader

I've already explained the situation in other multilingual nations. Europe already is in a sense a federation, so why not stop now? What is the driving force behind hardcore Europhiles?

Because I want my children to live in peace as well. Too many people were fighting for what we have today and it's our responsibilty to improve it. I don't wanna rest on the last generations laurels, that's just selfish and lazy.

@all the europhobes in general
It's always the same story and it really starts to piss me off...if something goes good it's always the merit of the local government, if it goes wrong we blame Brussels. That's the most stupid point of view prolly ever occured in history and it's more than sad that there are so many out there who truly believe that.

Most of the Europhobes don't deserve Europe, go live somewhere else if you think it's better. Farewell, we wont miss you.

[The Dear Leader]

Originally Posted by Anakin

Most of the Europhobes don't deserve Europe, go live somewhere else if you think it's better. Farewell, we wont miss you.

Germany would miss me.

You're overestimating the hatred that European countries apparently have for each other if you think that Europe would plunge into another war if the EU doesn't turn into a federation. How do you explain the last few decades of peace, which were achieved w/o some sort of pan-European construct to watch over it?

[Exarchus]

In France, even cows are racist...
http://www.kamini.fr/

So to see them in the EU...

[SHiRO]

Originally Posted by The Dear Leader

Germany would miss me.

You're overestimating the hatred that European countries apparently have for each other if you think that Europe would plunge into another war if the EU doesn't turn into a federation. How do you explain the last few decades of peace, which were achieved w/o some sort of pan-European construct to watch over it?

That's not the point.
The point is that noone in a globalised world is going to care what France, germany or the UK thinks.
There are many advantages to a globalised and more equal world, but those advantages are only to be had if Europe acts as one.
Something which is a "natural" course of action in the first place.

[Anakin]

Originally Posted by The Dear Leader

Germany would miss me.

You're overestimating the hatred that European countries apparently have for each other if you think that Europe would plunge into another war if the EU doesn't turn into a federation.

I would be very careful with estimating when it comes to the behaviour of politicians on their road to power, history proves you wrong many times with that.
We got to set up a construct where an unpredictable change of a national government isn't able to lure entire europe into destruction anymore.

Originally Posted by The Dear Leader

How do you explain the last few decades of peace, which were achieved w/o some sort of pan-European construct to watch over it?

Was it really achieved without that? In my oppinion the permanent progress in the european unification is highly responsible for our wealth and peace today.

The point is that noone in a globalised world is going to care what France, germany or the UK thinks.

Thanks, I couldn't have said it better. And that's also the weird point, outsiders see us way more unified than we see ourselves.

[pip]

Originally Posted by SHiRO

Values is not the only component of culture. yes Canada, Australia/NZ and 1/2 the US shares a lot of values with Europe.There are a lot of differences in lifestyles between these countries and Europe, differences that simply do not exist between the European countries (or when they do are caused by differences in economical development). Then there is the very strong component of having a shared history and shared contemporary culture (again, there is also a shared contemporary culture and some shared history between all of the western world). Together these things make for a very real European common culture and it is silly to deny this.

I didn't realize 100% of the population of Canada, Europe, Australia/NZ have the same values but it is only half for the US. Canada probably comes closest to the 100% but it is still distant as it doesn't appear to have such right wing politicians as in Europe and Australia/NZ which regulary get a significant percentage of the vote.

[one very bored guy]

Originally Posted by The Dear Leader

Belgium...might fall apart at any moment and the Flemings in particular might argue that they are indeed a separate nation. Same thing applies to Spain and Canada to a certain extent. The only country that's really been able to pull off this multilingual thing is Switzerland, largely because it's so decentralized. Every canton is almost like an independent country.

However, why the hell do people have to live in the same country just because they listen to the same music or wear the same clothes, after all that's the argument that some people are putting forth in this thread.

Whether there are groups in a country that wish it to split up is a completely different thing, the fact remains is that these country's are in fact still country's despite having different languages. And language differences are not the only thing that can split nations. The United Kingdom is a single country as far as any International definition goes, but it is further divided into historical country's like Scotland, of which speaks the same language as England but has little love for it.

Many States in the US feel rather seperated from the federation, and there are people living in them that would love to split from the US.

There are people in Western Australia that would also love to split from the rest of the country.

[one very bored guy]

Originally Posted by The Dear Leader

Where's the Welsh page?

http://www.number-10.gov.uk/output/Page1.asp

That is the prime ministers page, not the official government page. Try going to the government page and you will see the Welsh language link on the front page:

It's called Cwmraeg

http://www.direct.gov.uk/Homepage/fs/en

or if you can't see it...
http://www.direct.gov.uk/Homepage/fs/cy

[one very bored guy]

Originally Posted by pricemazda

Even Kampf can't deny that going to the US really makes you aware of what is 'european'.

I know from my time their I realised that everything from architecture to music to fashion, to politics even us Brits are way more european than we think we are.

Coming from Australia I saw the same. There are of cause much links between Australia and the UK, but modern Britain and it's lifestyle still has much more in common with Europe than Australia.

[JManc]

Originally Posted by Exarchus

I'm not sure India is a great model for Europe though.

neither is canada seeing as every so often, the quebecois hold a referendum regarding suceeding from the rest of canada which narrowly fails. 51-49

[one very bored guy]

Originally Posted by The Dear Leader

All I need to name is 1...language.

So, now that this was defeated, please name 10 major differences between a young typical person (aged 18-30) growing up in barcelona and a young typical person (aged 18-30) growing up in Stockholm.

Afterall, if you only need to name language, then it has been proved that many country's exist with multiple languages.

Besides, a typical young person from Barcelona can communicate with a typical young person from Stockholm in English.