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  #21  
Old Posted Oct 30, 2006, 2:08 AM
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Question Ok Sean...when can you tell us???

Sean,

Its been a couple of weeks now and I for one have not forgotten that you had some exciting news about a certain DT eyesore (can you say: Patriot's Square Park...Oh, I think I can ). Can you give it up???
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  #22  
Old Posted Oct 30, 2006, 4:25 AM
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^ No, it wasn't PSP. It was the Garage Mahal, which is being sold by the City to finance part of the CityScape deal.
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  #23  
Old Posted Oct 30, 2006, 4:43 AM
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I think I guessed that was it.
Is it being sold to a Developer wishing to build on top?
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  #24  
Old Posted Oct 30, 2006, 4:56 AM
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Dunno. Ask Jensen (the guy behind the entertainment district)
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  #25  
Old Posted Oct 30, 2006, 5:28 AM
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Dang! I thought it was going to be some incredible unveiling of the incorporation of the park site into Cityscape. I hope the city is getting a good price. I know the garage its underutelized now but just wait...it will be a moneymaker down the road. I don't know why everyone seems to hate the thing sooooo much. I don't mind it where its at, across the street from the ballpark. Maybe the new owner will top it off with a huge nightclub, or tennis courts, or blimp port
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  #26  
Old Posted Oct 30, 2006, 5:36 AM
HX_Guy HX_Guy is offline
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I don't think it's that bad where it's at because it's sort of on the outskirts of the downtown core area. There are definately worse downtown parking garages which I'd rather see go.

Then again, building something on top of it (demolishing it probably would cost way too much...and why not keep it an build on top of it?) would enlarge the downtown "core" area sort of like Summit at Copper Square is doing.
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  #27  
Old Posted Oct 30, 2006, 7:53 AM
Azndragon837 Azndragon837 is offline
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That garage is sooo ugly: it doesn't engage in the street, it's a massive eye sore, and the frontage facing Chase Field COULD HAVE been something better (i.e. shops, bars and restaurants). Instead, we got a monolithic eyesore that takes up a massive city block, and has 4 sides of "dead zones." I would either build on top of it, or carve out the first floor and incorporate some retail or restaurants there in the future. Actually, WRAP the garage with retail, services, restaurants, bars and living spaces, hiding the ugly thing behind...now THAT'S a better idea!

-Andrew
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  #28  
Old Posted Oct 30, 2006, 5:13 PM
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^ 2 city blocks, actually.
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  #29  
Old Posted Oct 30, 2006, 9:13 PM
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Wink The Evil Garage

[IMG][/IMG]

http://www.azcentral.com/specials/sp...arage0417.html

I'm very glad the Plaza East Garage (OK, aka Garage Mahal) will be sold to private enterprise. The link is an article from April concerning what a financial loss it has been for the city. Let's see what a good entrepreneur can do with it I still kinda like it though...decent landscaping, nice bulky scale next to the enormity of the ballbark, etc. Its a fine garage and does what a garage should do, store cars while you GO somewhere nearby. They're not meant to be a destination in themselves...but who knows what the future holds. Perhaps the Garage Mahal can be redeemed.
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  #30  
Old Posted Oct 30, 2006, 10:32 PM
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Hopefully there will now be ground floor retail at the Garage, it is too much of a dead zone right now. It, among other things really cuts the southern part of downtown off from areas like the Science Center and the Artisan row houses.

I actually don't mind the exterior styling of the garage, at least its not just grey concrete like most garages. It would be great if they would build something on top of it that kept the same style and shape and was maybe 10 more stories, then we'd have a building in town that wasn't the same shape as every other building.
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  #31  
Old Posted Oct 31, 2006, 9:16 PM
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Question In Search of a Beautiful Garage

OK, I think most of us have unreasonable expectations of parking garages. I just did an exhaustive image search on parking garages looking for an attractive one. Stand-alone garages are typically spartan in design and butt ugly! Unless they are the base of an expensive condo tower, they usually are designed more for function than for their visual appeal. I could not find any examples with ground floor retail on a stand alone garage.

I found two examples that may be rehabilitation possibilities for the garage mahal... The first uses some bold geometric painting
[IMG][/IMG]

The second uses some nice big trees to hide the ugly garage
[IMG][/IMG]

I like the idea of opening up a design competition to architects and artists on how to beautify the beast. Another idea I had concerning how the garage cuts off the surrounding areas from one another is to add criss-cross passageways through the bottom floor with pedestrian crosswalks and lights inside so folks don't get run over.

A challenge: find an example of an attractive stand alone garage with perimeter retail or other "non-garage" use.
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  #32  
Old Posted Nov 1, 2006, 1:26 AM
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this is my favorite one ever, it's in chicago.

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  #33  
Old Posted Nov 1, 2006, 1:38 AM
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^For those of you hoping they can build on top...don't hold your breath. Garage floors are designed for less load than either typical commercial space or residential space. One would think that a parking garage would be able to hold MORE load than a typical floor, but that's entirely wrong (as for a nightclub...can you say collapse?).

If someone is buying this, it's likely that it's either to tear it down (seems unlikely) or carving out one corner to build a tower of some kind. I seem to recall though that this garage has a super steep speed ramp all the way from one end to the other (joining multiple levels all the way to the top). That makes carving out a corner extremely problematic for traffic and even more problematic for accessing the upper levels of the garage (one would assume that the tower would be carved out on the high ramp end side of the garage). Massing reworking of the traffic flow.

What a cluster...maybe it is worth tearing down?
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  #34  
Old Posted Nov 1, 2006, 1:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by plinko
^For those of you hoping they can build on top...don't hold your breath. Garage floors are designed for less load than either typical commercial space or residential space.
really? cause last time I checked, 500 cars weighs more than office chairs and desks.
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  #35  
Old Posted Nov 1, 2006, 4:15 AM
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It's hard to believe that a parking garage wouldn't be as strong as a normal building. On the other hand, I've been in plenty of parking garages where I could feel the floor flexing as cars drove around it.
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  #36  
Old Posted Nov 1, 2006, 6:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Upward
It's hard to believe that a parking garage wouldn't be as strong as a normal building. On the other hand, I've been in plenty of parking garages where I could feel the floor flexing as cars drove around it.
um, the garages are built to flex. They have to be very STRONG and have the flex in order to hold all those office chairs.
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  #37  
Old Posted Nov 1, 2006, 6:51 AM
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Well, Plinko is an architect so I tend to listen!

That sucks- I was thinking since Cityscape is building on top of that garage that it was easy- as well- 44 Monroe's first 7 floors are parking garage...

-The idea of carving out a corner is always a possibility though.
It would seem like such a HUGE waste to tear the whole thing down!
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  #38  
Old Posted Nov 1, 2006, 6:54 AM
HX_Guy HX_Guy is offline
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Perhaps the ones purposly built to have a tower on top are done differently and therefore they can take the weight? (Referring to Monroe 44)

As for the parking garage under Patriot's Square Park, I have no idea. I do remember someone here mentioning that it could hold up to a 20 story tower on top of it.
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  #39  
Old Posted Nov 2, 2006, 3:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John_Vandercook
really? cause last time I checked, 500 cars weighs more than office chairs and desks.
Quote:
Originally Posted by John_Vandercook
um, the garages are built to flex. They have to be very STRONG and have the flex in order to hold all those office chairs.
You assume that the cars and the office equipment are both there 100% of the time. The building code does not.

Parking structure floors are built to 'flex' due to movement of heavy objects. Commercial and residential floors are built to be stiff for human comfort factors (less deflection and reverberation) and life safety (more dead loads...e.g. loads that are present 100% of the time).

The basic lbs. per SF of area for live load (loads that are not constant) for office and for garages are about the same. But since free-standing parking structures require longer spans (based on the parking layout and circulation), and the beams need to deflect greater due to greater movements, the live loads on the beams can be reduced by up to 40% since the beams serve a wider area. That same 40% reduction can also happen in residential and commercial space, but is likely to me much less (usually 10-15%) due to the fact that bay spacing in those buildings is nearly always significantly smaller.

So the floors in a parking structure are built to 'flex' and technically carry less load and the floors in a commercial or residential structure are built to be stiff with less deflection.

BTW, assembly areas (uhhh...nightclubs, restaurants, etc) allow NO reduction in the beam loading. A typical parking structure floor can't support that (or a storage use either) and is UNLIKELY to be able to support a residential or commercial use (though I have seen it done in an old parking structure in Boston's Back Bay which was converted to an apartment building).

Standard Live Loads (with no reductions) in lbs. per SF:

Assembly areas: 100-125 psf
Parking garages: 50 psf
Residential: 40 psf
Storage (light): 125 psf
Storage (heavy): 250 psf
Pedestrian bridges and walkways: 100 psf

FYI, the dead load (weight of the materials carried and permanent fixed features), the live load (non-constant load based on use), material and span are four of the main factors architects and engineers use to size beams.

My point is that it's unlikely that the existing garage can support either type of conversion (commercial or residential) above the first floor. Commercial would require too much vertical space anyway (typical floor to floor in a parking garage is 9'-6" which is WAY low for commercial space). Residential is a small possibility, but it would require some major reconfiguration of the vehicle circulation in order to keep the parking.

It would at least be an interesting study to do as a designer.
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  #40  
Old Posted Nov 4, 2006, 7:17 PM
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Thanks for the engineering lesson Plinko. I would have made a good architect but I couldn't do the math.

Last edited by JimInCal; Nov 4, 2006 at 7:38 PM.
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