Most middle income areas are in the Midwest

[JManc]

Originally Posted by 10023

Except that this ignores real differences between these groups, their economic needs, their political preferences, etc.

Class isn't about what you do for a living, how far you got in school or who you voted for. It's more about lifestyle, values, and goals. My maternal grandparents dropped out of high school and my grandfather worked for the railroad but they were solidly middle class just like my other grandparents; my other grandfather was an engineer. No difference in how my parents grew up or the values they were taught.

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by Crawford

I think there are clear upper middle/lower middle cleavages, even if everyone calls themselves middle class.

Upper middle are in gentrified neighborhoods, McMansion sprawl, and the in-between streetcar suburbs. The lower middle are in anonymous suburbia and exurban/rural America.

Upper class are in the best parts of the favored quarters, urban or suburban. Working/lower class in inner city and rural/suburban equivalents.

i don't things are delineated that neatly.

for example, my neighborhood has everything from $2M new construction mansions to studio apartments you can rent for as low as $800/month.

that's upper class to lower middle class and everything in between all living cheek by jowl.

[10023]

Originally Posted by Docere

If the middle class "everybody that isn't rich or poor" then the term is meaningless.

This.

It blurs a whole bunch of relevant and important distinctions which may or may not have to do with income.

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

it is in the middle, numerically speaking.

if you make the exact national median income, then half of the people in the country make more than you, and half make less.

you are "in the middle" of all the people.

But it doesn’t mean being in the middle of all of the people. It means that of the 3 broad “classes” into which one can logically segment the population, someone is part of the middle one of those 3.

See the difference?

And because those segments are very unequal in size, the two approaches produce very different results.

Originally Posted by Crawford

The U.S. doesn't have landed gentry so the UK's archaic class consciousness isn't applicable here. There's no need to separate nobility from bourgeoisie or any such nonsense.

Keep telling yourself this.

Just because assets are financial and not land, doesn’t mean the dynamic is any different. There is a sociodemographic class in the US, small in number but in control of a significant percentage of national assets, who can live off of their (often inherited) capital. And the more mature the US becomes as a country, the more entrenched and inter-generationally stable this class becomes.

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by 10023

But it doesn’t mean being in the middle of all of the people. It means that of the 3 broad “classes” into which one can logically segment the population, someone is part of the middle one of those 3.

See the difference?

no.

it's like you're denying the definition of "median".

The median is the value separating the higher half from the lower half of a data sample (a population or a probability distribution). For a data set, it may be thought of as the "middle" value. For example, in the data set {1, 3, 3, 6, 7, 8, 9}, the median is 6, the fourth largest, and also the fourth smallest, number in the sample. For a continuous probability distribution, the median is the value such that a number is equally likely to fall above or below it.

source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Median

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by 10023

Just because assets are financial and not land, doesn’t mean the dynamic is any different. There is a sociodemographic class in the US, small in number but in control of a significant percentage of national assets, who can live off of their (often inherited) capital. And the more mature the US becomes as a country, the more entrenched and inter-generationally stable this class becomes.

Landed gentry are very different from those who have inherited wealth, no?

In UK terms, if I inherit significant sums from my parents' garbage hauling business, I'm not in the same class as the son of the Earl of Bromwich or whomever. The former is likely wealthier than the latter, but has lower class standing and is unlikely to attain cultural signifiers like Oxbridge, the "right" clubs, etc.

My point is that the U.S. never had the latter, so there's point in making an analogous distinction.

[JManc]

Unlike landed gentry of the past, anyone can attain the top echelon in this country. Jeff Bezos did it by selling books...

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by JManc

Unlike landed gentry of the past, anyone can attain the top echelon in this country. Jeff Bezos did it by selling books...

Yeah, my point isn't that the U.S. doesn't have class cleavages, it's that we don't have that additional "top" level in the UK consisting of landed gentry.

Here, class is only about money. Kim/Kanye's kids are more likely to attend the Ivies and the "right" social circles than some dude who inherited a Scottish castle.

[10023]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

no.

it's like you're denying the definition of "median".

source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Median

Let me try to explain again.

“Middle class” refers to the middle of something. That’s definitely true.

Now the question is, middle of what?

You contend that it’s the middle third (or half) of the 300+ million people in the United States. I contend that it is the middle of the 3 historically defined socioeconomic strata. It’s the middle one of 3 things, not 300+ million things.

And that second definition has more practical value, because it implies the dividing line between the bottom and middle groups lies somewhere between $50k and $200k, rather than between $30k and $50k.

[10023]

Originally Posted by Crawford

Yeah, my point isn't that the U.S. doesn't have class cleavages, it's that we don't have that additional "top" level in the UK consisting of landed gentry.

Here, class is only about money. Kim/Kanye's kids are more likely to attend the Ivies and the "right" social circles than some dude who inherited a Scottish castle.

The UK doesn’t really either. Or at least that’s not where the modern distinction lies. Prince Harry is not considered middle class, but nor are CEOs of big companies or hedge fund managers with $10 million houses.

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by 10023

You contend that it’s the middle third (or half) of the 300+ million people in the United States..

no, i contended that someone who makes the exact national median income would have half the people in the nation making more than him and half the people making less than him.

he would therefore be in the exact middle of the distribution of incomes.

you said that was incorrect, but that's EXACTLY what median means.

[10023]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

no, i contended that someone who makes the exact national median income would have half the people in the nation making more than him and half the people making less than him.

he would therefore be in the exact middle of the distribution of incomes.

you said that was incorrect, but that's EXACTLY what median means.

You’re still not getting it. Never mind.

“Middle” is an adjective. “Class” is a noun. The adjective modifies the noun. It’s the class that is the middle one, not the person. What you are describing is the “middle person” on the income scale.

[Steely Dan]

and you apparently don't know what median means. never mind.

Originally Posted by 10023

“Middle” is an adjective. “Class” is a noun. The adjective modifies the noun. It’s the class that is the middle one, not the person. What you are describing is the “middle person” on the income scale.

and that's precisely what i've been talking about this whole time. the confusion caused by the name "middle" class.

it's perfectly natural, even appropriate, for someone in the middle of the income distribution to see themselves as middle class.

regardless of how sociologists or economists define it, THAT is the reason why most american's see themselves as middle class.

if it had been called something else from the very beginning ages ago, we wouldn't currently be engaged in this discussion.

[Capsicum]

Originally Posted by 10023

For example, people who are *actually* middle class, and encounter literally no downsides from Chinese outsourcing, Mexican immigration, etc (because they haven’t been anywhere near a factory or warehouse in their lives unless they went on a brewery tour), ignored the concerns that the working class has about these things, and that gave us Trump. Your master’s degree holder making $35k is going to be just as clueless about those things as anyone; the plumber making $80k is not.

There's no guarantee that middle class jobs don't experience competition from overseas outsourcing or from immigrants, either.

Many of the jobs in terms of warehouses and factories already left, though some are still leaving.

But it's not necessarily going to be the case that the master's degree holder's job is any less precarious (a programmers' job can be outsourced to foreigners who know how to code and are willing to do so cheaply, while the plumber has local houses and neighbourhoods to go to and depend on for their job market).

[COtoOC]

Originally Posted by JManc

Class isn't about what you do for a living, how far you got in school or who you voted for. It's more about lifestyle, values, and goals. My maternal grandparents dropped out of high school and my grandfather worked for the railroad but they were solidly middle class just like my other grandparents; my other grandfather was an engineer. No difference in how my parents grew up or the values they were taught.

My grandparents were like that. Grandfather fought in WWII and went on to be a blue collar Millwright. He never went to college, but was smart and was a manager within his blue collar career. They had a nice house and bought my grandmother a Cadillac in the 80s. They took vacations to Hawaii and Europe, invested, went to the symphony.

But I get the feeling it's a lot more difficult to do that these days with so many good blue collar jobs gone.

median income is not adequate to define "middle class".

here's an annual income distribution for a hypothetical population of 9 (unit = $):

[1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1000000, 1000000]

The median value is 1 but it should be obvious that the 7 people making $1/yr are not "middle class".

[COtoOC]

Originally Posted by IrishIllini

You are definitely upper middle to upper class. A combined household income of $200k easily puts you in the top 5-10%. Middle class people don't max out their 401ks, live in 2,500 SF homes in Denver, or take one "decent" vacation per year. The cost of living in Denver is quite high, but you're still doing better than most, even there.

Online "calculators" put us at about 5%ers. But it just shows how horribly skewed wealth is in the U.S. We're so close to the 1%ers on paper, but have more in common with the 50%ers. We still make shopping lists, try to get things (especially clothing) on sale, are set back when something like a $4500 ER bill hits us, and plan to drive at least my car to 200K miles before getting a new one.

When I was a kid in the 80s, I had what I considered "rich" friends who had white collar, professional fathers doing jobs like I do now. The difference back then was that it only took one person working that job to support the lifestyle, whereas now, at least in more expensive cities like Denver, it takes two high incomes. Life is much more rushed overwhelming when both parents are gone all day to stressful jobs.

[Docere]

Originally Posted by COtoOC

Online "calculators" put us at about 5%ers. But it just shows how horribly skewed wealth is in the U.S. We're so close to the 1%ers on paper, but have more in common with the 50%ers. We still make shopping lists, try to get things (especially clothing) on sale, are set back when something like a $4500 ER bill hits us, and plan to drive at least my car to 200K miles before getting a new one.

When I was a kid in the 80s, I had what I considered "rich" friends who had white collar, professional fathers doing jobs like I do now. The difference back then was that it only took one person working that job to support the lifestyle, whereas now, at least in more expensive cities like Denver, it takes two high incomes. Life is much more rushed overwhelming when both parents are gone all day to stressful jobs.

Wow - you do your own shopping! Very salt of the earth of you.

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by IWant2BeInSTL

median income is not adequate to define "middle class".

here's an annual income distribution for a hypothetical population of 9 (unit = $):

[1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1000000, 1000000]

The median value is 1 but it should be obvious that the 7 people making $1/yr are not "middle class".

i'm not arguing that median income should be used to determine "middle class" i was merely explaining why so many americans view themselves as "middle class".

most households make around the median income of $60K, give or take $20K, so most people see themselves as somewhere in the middle.

"i have some money, but not a ton of money, i'm probably in the middle (class)".

[LouisVanDerWright]

Middle Class is a concept made up in business schools to refer to "the people who spend the most money" A/K/A "the people you want to market to". That includes a whole lot of people ranging from spending every dime they make and racking up credit card debt as well to saving plenty of money but also spending a shit ton too. The merchants don't care your financials as long as you are buying shit from them.

[COtoOC]

Originally Posted by Docere

Wow - you do your own shopping! Very salt of the earth of you.

The butler is too busy ironing sheets and underwear.