North Shore Rapid Transit | Park Royal-Metrotown via 2nd Narrows | BRT/RRT - Page 6

fredinno · #**101** Posted **May 24, 2023, 1:33 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by FarmerHaight

I guess it depends on the route. In my head I had Metrotown, BCIT, Brentwood, Willingdon/Hastings, something between Gilmore and Boundary, the PNE, and Phibbs, with additional stations or infill provisions at Deer Lake and and Parker. However, if you skip Brentwood as chowhou suggests, or skip the PNE by crossing the inlet sooner your number would be more accurate. I guess it depends on a) how much of Hastings is served (if a separate Hastings line is soon to follow this line you can get away with just one or two interchange stations on Hastings, and b) how much future density Burnaby wants to serve on Willingdon. If we're talking downtown-level 800m spacings you could see stations on Willingdon at Central, Bond, Deer Lake, Canada Way, Lougheed, Parker, and Hastings. And with two large Town Centres and a university campus in between, I'd love the all of the Willingdon line to be built with more future density in mind, not less.

I understand your reasons for skipping Brentwood but I really hate it :

I would recommend moving the BCIT Station to Canada Way instead of Goard.

Goard and Canada Way are both highly used by BCIT students anyways, and Canada Way is more useful for bus transfers from Hwy 1 and Canada Way.

Sheba · #**102** Posted **May 24, 2023, 2:29 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by chowhou

I know it intuitively makes sense to go straight through Brentwood Town Centre and connect at the town centre's central Skytrain Station, but I don't think that the purpose of this line is specifically to get people to and from The Amazing Brentwood. The purpose is more-so to have a solid north-south connection between the North Shore and transit exchanges in Burnaby (as well as connecting transit exchanges within Burnaby) in order to provide regional transit connectivity.

When I imagine the line I have it going from Metrotown to Brentwood and then diagonally across to Hastings. Brentwood has the bus connections while Gilmore barely has any. Plus have you looked at the issues happening all around Gilmore Place...

Quote:

Originally Posted by fredinno

I would recommend moving the BCIT Station to Canada Way instead of Goard.

Goard and Canada Way are both highly used by BCIT students anyways, and Canada Way is more useful for bus transfers from Hwy 1 and Canada Way.

Don't forget about the Willingdon Lands - that'll be from Canada Way down to about Ford Ave. Between that and BCIT it might justify two stations in the area.

madog222 · #**103** Posted **May 24, 2023, 2:38 AM**

A single station for BCIT at Goard is more than sufficient, from there is still only a 15min walk to the furthest SE corner of the campus.

chowhou · #**104** Posted **May 24, 2023, 3:02 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheba

When I imagine the line I have it going from Metrotown to Brentwood and then diagonally across to Hastings. Brentwood has the bus connections while Gilmore barely has any. Plus have you looked at the issues happening all around Gilmore Place...

The busses aren't an issue IMO.

The 130 and 222 will lose a lot of their purpose and will probably get the same treatment the 41 got from the R4 and the 9 got from the 99 and soon to be Broadway Skytrain. Relegated to a local connector bus.

The 25 and 123 (the important ones) will both connect to the Canada Way station and provide an optional bridge between Canada Way and Brentwood. This is good.

The only "losers" are the 134 and 136 which are local neighbourhood busses with circuitous routes, but connections will be made with the 28 and 129 which isn't much of a change in my eyes.

On top of all that, once the Gilmore Place development is finished, there will be a logical convenient turnaround point if needed (The future Gilmore/Lougheed/Carlton/Dawson block). This is especially true if/when Dawson becomes a through street and a "high street" as the Brentwood OCP suggests. There will almost certainly be a bus along the "high street" which would very conveniently be anchored at Gilmore Station.

I'm personally of the opinion that they're majorly fucking up the construction of Gilmore Place, and it might go to successful civil litigation, but once it's all said and done there won't be any long term issues (at least none that didn't already exist i.e. flooding). Clearly the Skytrain has always been going through the Gilmore Place development and Translink seems to think it's perfectly safe.

fredinno · #**105** Posted **May 24, 2023, 3:06 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by chowhou

I know it intuitively makes sense to go straight through Brentwood Town Centre and connect at the town centre's central Skytrain Station, but I don't think that the purpose of this line is specifically to get people to and from The Amazing Brentwood. The purpose is more-so to have a solid north-south connection between the North Shore and transit exchanges in Burnaby (as well as connecting transit exchanges within Burnaby) in order to provide regional transit connectivity. People going to or coming from the Tri-Cities connecting northbound or southbound from the Millennium line will not be seriously affected, people coming from or going to New West/SoF/South Burnaby and connecting at Metrotown northbound towards the North Shore will not be affected, the only people that will be affected are people that are going to or from Brentwood Town Centre specifically (not Holdom or Gilmore), which I think will be a small minority of the overall ridership.

If my proposed alignment can get the shovels in the ground a decade earlier, I think it's well worth it.

Note that there's also enough space on Brentwood and Willingdon itself to allow for elevated tracks due to the bus lanes already there (slope is also not an issue.)

The main problem are either having to have 2 90 degree turns to get onto the 2nd Narrows, or having to make a 'east crossing' on 2nd Narrows right next to the Parkland refinery (surprisingly, it's still active.) The east crossing on 2nd Narrows in the Phase 1 crossing report avoided the refinery lands.

Quote:

Originally Posted by madog222

A single station for BCIT at Goard is more than sufficient, from there is still only a 15min walk to the furthest SE corner of the campus.

Canada Way and Goard are almost as well used as each other on 130 (which I showed earlier.)
Also, the Willingdon Lands are centered around the corner of Canada and Willingdon:

Once again - 130:

222 changes the dynamic a bit, but having gone to BCIT, most people just pick whatever bus at whatever bus stop to get the SkyTrain ASAP and aren't particularly picky.
Canada is only a 5 minute walk from Goard.

Deer Lake is a good station for infill/future, as there's a ton of potential development lands there.

Basically everything else between Metrotown and Brentwood is useless (except Still Creek Ave, somewhat surprisingly enough).

Oh yeah, and the guy that suggested they get rid of the Costco for an OMC is dumb.
No one touches the Costcos.

FarmerHaight · #**106** Posted **May 24, 2023, 4:13 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by fredinno

Basically everything else between Metrotown and Brentwood is useless (except Still Creek Ave, somewhat surprisingly enough).

One thing to consider is Metrotown, despite being centered around Kingsway, is fairly deep. That is, a station for the Willingdon line on Central Avenue will not serve residents living in the towers on Hazel Street, or even in the new Concord development that well.

I know the Metrotown plan essentially cuts off at Grange and everything north of that is just SFH. But is it really that hard to imagine in 50 or 100 years that Willingdon from Imperial to Deer lake could be lined with at least mid-rise, if not high-rise buildings? That's why I think a provision should be made for a future infill station somewhere between Grange and Bond. That would leave about 800 metres between that station and the Central and Deer Lake stations.

Migrant_Coconut · #**107** Posted **May 24, 2023, 6:43 PM**

One other thing to consider with a Gilmore interchange: Still Creek floods. A lot. Not sure if it ever reaches the station area, but if I'm TransLink, I’ll want an above-grade mezzanine for transfers and a second entrance up the slope, just to be safe.

chowhou · #**108** Posted **May 24, 2023, 6:53 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

One other thing to consider with a Gilmore interchange: Still Creek floods. A lot. Not sure if it ever reaches the station area, but if I'm TransLink, I’ll want an above-grade mezzanine for transfers and a second entrance up the slope, just to be safe.

Even in the worst flooding, Gilmore and Henning usually stays just above the high water mark.

See 2017:

https://globalnews.ca/video/3812723/...ing-in-burnaby

If I recall correctly, Gilmore Place had a proposed integration with the mezzanine level of Gilmore Station. I think that got nixed but if it's possible in the future that would alleviate that issue.

fredinno · #**109** Posted **May 24, 2023, 9:52 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by FarmerHaight

One thing to consider is Metrotown, despite being centered around Kingsway, is fairly deep. That is, a station for the Willingdon line on Central Avenue will not serve residents living in the towers on Hazel Street, or even in the new Concord development that well.

I know the Metrotown plan essentially cuts off at Grange and everything north of that is just SFH. But is it really that hard to imagine in 50 or 100 years that Willingdon from Imperial to Deer lake could be lined with at least mid-rise, if not high-rise buildings? That's why I think a provision should be made for a future infill station somewhere between Grange and Bond. That would leave about 800 metres between that station and the Central and Deer Lake stations.

https://ca.mapometer.com/walking

Maybe. I'm not really ever against infill stations unless it's not really feasible. Note also though that an infill station would be quite deep, as Willingdon starts to go uphill after Deer Lake all the way up to Kingsway.

Combine that with the very low demand there, and it's just not a very good deal.

There are far more station locations on the existing lines with higher priority, so I have no idea when an infill station would ever be built.

Quote:

Originally Posted by chowhou

Even in the worst flooding, Gilmore and Henning usually stays just above the high water mark.

See 2017:

https://globalnews.ca/video/3812723/...ing-in-burnaby

If I recall correctly, Gilmore Place had a proposed integration with the mezzanine level of Gilmore Station. I think that got nixed but if it's possible in the future that would alleviate that issue.

Note on the other hand that Gilmore Station is freaking tiny.
It's one of the most minimalistic stations on the Millennium (like Lake City Way.)

If you want to make it a transfer station, that's a lot of work you have to do.

Brentwood is already somewhat overbuilt as-is in comparison, so it'd be much easier to make it a transfer station.

chowhou · #**110** Posted **May 24, 2023, 9:58 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by fredinno

Note on the other hand that Gilmore Station is freaking tiny.
It's one of the most minimalistic stations on the Millennium (like Lake City Way.)

If you want to make it a transfer station, that's a lot of work you have to do.

Brentwood is already somewhat overbuilt as-is in comparison, so it'd be much easier to make it a transfer station.

Gilmore is intentionally built that way because it was designed with integration into a development in mind. It's intentionally modular which makes it an easier choice for an expanded exchange station.

officedweller · #**111** Posted **May 24, 2023, 10:54 PM**

I think the biggest issue would be snaking the elevated guideway through the area.
I figure it would go over Henning Drive then along side and then under or over the M-Line guideway on the Home Depot parking lot (probably under given the hydro lines above), then go over the railway tracks.

chowhou · #**112** Posted **May 24, 2023, 11:15 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by officedweller

I think the biggest issue would be snaking the elevated guideway through the area.
I figure it would go over Henning Drive then along side and then under or over the M-Line guideway on the Home Depot parking lot (probably under given the hydro lines above), then go over the railway tracks.

Based on the topography coming down from Burnaby Heights, it would make more sense for the guideway to go over the M-Line guideway. The transmission lines can be raised, I don't think that's too big of a deal.

fredinno · #**113** Posted **May 25, 2023, 1:26 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by chowhou

Gilmore is intentionally built that way because it was designed with integration into a development in mind. It's intentionally modular which makes it an easier choice for an expanded exchange station.

[Citation needed]

madog222 · #**114** Posted **May 25, 2023, 1:46 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by fredinno

[Citation needed]

Gilmore was built to allow direct integrategration at the concourse level and the roof is made to be simple to remove and be replaced by the development.

Quote:

Gilmore Station - Busby + Associates Architects Ltd. Features a bright, canopied entrance and views in all directions. Located in an area in transition, it is designed to connect at the mezzanine level to future commercial development expected in the vicinity. The platform structure is a series of laminated wood timber and steel ribs.

https://web.archive.org/web/20190331...llennium-line/

Early concepts for Gilmore Place even showed full replacement of the station house but that has obviously been dropped. As built there is no integration, even at the concourse level.

Quote:

Originally Posted by officedweller

http://www.jivepromotions.com/gilmor...e-brochure.pdf

FarmerHaight · #**115** Posted **May 25, 2023, 3:47 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by madog222

Early concepts for Gilmore Place even showed full replacement of the station house but that has obviously been dropped. As built there is no integration, even at the concourse level.

That's too bad. I really like New Westminster Station; it would have been nice to have another fully-integrated station in the network.

idunno · #**116** Posted **May 25, 2023, 4:14 PM**

Apparently TransLink and Onni couldn't work it out. Zero evidence for this but I'm gonna put the blame on Onni

CanSpice · #**117** Posted **May 25, 2023, 4:52 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by FarmerHaight

That's too bad. I really like New Westminster Station; it would have been nice to have another fully-integrated station in the network.

Maybe you'll see something like that with Columbia, given TransLink owns the building on top of it and is going to redevelop it at some point. But that's off-topic for this thread...

officedweller · #**118** Posted **May 25, 2023, 10:02 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheba

Don't forget about the Willingdon Lands - that'll be from Canada Way down to about Ford Ave. Between that and BCIT it might justify two stations in the area.

I could see another station at Gilmore and Canada Way.