VIA Rail network developments

[citydwlr]

Trudeau seems to be on board (no pun intended) with Via's Higher Speed Rail project, according to this article in Le Soleil:

https://www.lesoleil.com/actualite/p...13cad7a45b867e

«On sait que c’est bon pour la société, pour l’environnement et pour la croissance économique. C’est le genre d’investissement auquel les gens s’attendent» a déclaré M. Trudeau au cours d’une entrevue avec Le Soleil pour les journaux de Groupe Capitales Médias.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by citydwlr

Trudeau seems to be on board (no pun intended) with Via's Higher Speed Rail project, according to this article in Le Soleil:

https://www.lesoleil.com/actualite/p...13cad7a45b867e

Words don't matter. Dollars do. And so far the lack of investment in VIA from the feds speaks volumes.

[PHrenetic]

Good Day.

Investment -might- be on the horizon !?

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...ticle37714915/

Quote:
The Liberal government is sharpening its scrutiny of Via Rail's ambitious and costly expansion plans in the run-up to the 2018 budget.
While no final decisions have been made, the government appears to be working toward approving Via's $1.5-billion request for new trains in the short term.
UnQuote.

A major point, though - Quote:
.....
The combined proposal could cost more than $6-billion if it involved electric power.
However, the government is treating Via's pitch as two separate decisions. In an interview with The Globe and Mail, federal Transport Minister Marc Garneau expressed clear support for Via's fleet-renewal request.
UnQuote.

Summaries - Quote:
Via's proposal would mean the construction of a new line between Toronto and Ottawa through Peterborough that would use an abandoned rail line that is currently a recreational trail. Meanwhile in Quebec, Via is proposing new service between Montreal and Quebec City along the north shore of the St. Lawrence River through Trois-Rivières.
....
However, provincial government decisions in Ontario and Quebec have complicated matters. Ontario announced in October that it is planning a high-speed rail line from Toronto to London, and perhaps as far as Windsor. The plan has not received full funding from the province.
Ontario is looking at trains that would reach speeds of up to 250 kilometres per hour. In contrast, Via's plan would use traditional passenger trains, with top speeds of about 177 km/h. High-speed train lines are much more expensive, partly because they require full grade separation from intersecting roads.
Meanwhile in Quebec, the province's pension fund is leading a $6-billion commuter rail project called REM in the Montreal region that would have a new light-rail line enter the downtown through a tunnel. However, Via wants to run its heavy trains through that same tunnel as part of its proposed new line to Quebec City. Whether the two types of trains can share the tunnel is an unresolved issue.
UnQuote.

EnJoy!

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by PHrenetic

Good Day.

Investment -might- be on the horizon !?

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...ticle37714915/

An interesting article.

Quote:
.....
The combined proposal could cost more than $6-billion if it involved electric power.
However, the government is treating Via's pitch as two separate decisions. In an interview with The Globe and Mail, federal Transport Minister Marc Garneau expressed clear support for Via's fleet-renewal request.
UnQuote.

It is smart for the government to treat them as separate requests. The new equipment is urgently needed (the article says "some rail cars will start to be pulled out of service as early as this year."). It is true that some of the decisions as to what type of equipment to order will depend on if HSR happens (especially electrification), but in terms of coaches, it isn't a huge factor.

However, provincial government decisions in Ontario and Quebec have complicated matters. Ontario announced in October that it is planning a high-speed rail line from Toronto to London, and perhaps as far as Windsor. The plan has not received full funding from the province.
Ontario is looking at trains that would reach speeds of up to 250 kilometres per hour. In contrast, Via's plan would use traditional passenger trains, with top speeds of about 177 km/h. High-speed train lines are much more expensive, partly because they require full grade separation from intersecting roads.

I don't see how this is really relevant. Countries around the world run both HSR and Regional rail (equivalent to Via's HFR plan). VIA's HFR plan does not extend west of Toronto and Ontario's HSR plan doesn't extend east of Toronto.

Meanwhile in Quebec, the province's pension fund is leading a $6-billion commuter rail project called REM in the Montreal region that would have a new light-rail line enter the downtown through a tunnel. However, Via wants to run its heavy trains through that same tunnel as part of its proposed new line to Quebec City. Whether the two types of trains can share the tunnel is an unresolved issue.

The article also says, "Quebec Premier Philippe Couillard also surprised many in November when he raised the possibility of a high-speed monorail between Montreal and Quebec City." Monorail??? What is this, the 70's? If you are going to use a proprietary technology that requires construction of new, dedicated tracks and is incompatible with everything else, at least go with Maglev.

[phil235]

Originally Posted by roger1818

I don't see how this is really relevant. Countries around the world run both HSR and Regional rail (equivalent to Via's HFR plan). VIA's HFR plan does not extend west of Toronto and Ontario's HSR plan doesn't extend east of Toronto.

Is it just me, or do they seem to have these plans backwards. Wouldn't it make far more sense to do HFR from Toronto to London, and HSR from Toronto to Ottawa/Montreal?

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by phil235

Is it just me, or do they seem to have these plans backwards. Wouldn't it make far more sense to do HFR from Toronto to London, and HSR from Toronto to Ottawa/Montreal?

There was a lot of chatter on this earlier in this thread. I am pretty doubtful the SW Ontario HSR will happen. It has more the feel of an election gimmick than an actual project. I think they're still at the "advisory board" phase.

I think it does show the problem with Ottawa's lack of swing ridings. The province never feels the need to try to bribe Ottawa voters.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by phil235

Is it just me, or do they seem to have these plans backwards. Wouldn't it make far more sense to do HFR from Toronto to London, and HSR from Toronto to Ottawa/Montreal?

Not for the GofOntario. The impetus for HSR is the Toronto-Waterloo tech corridor. Whether there will ever be HSR, I couldn't predict.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

Not for the GofOntario. The impetus for HSR is the Toronto-Waterloo tech corridor. Whether there will ever be HSR, I couldn't predict.

Exactly. Also, from an Ontario perspective, when comparing Ontario populations, Kitchener–Waterloo and London's Metropolitan areas have a larger population combined (1018 thousand) than the City of Ottawa's (934 thousand), plus Guelph is larger than Peterborough. On top of that, the route is much shorter (just over half the length).

HFR can also be used as a stepping stone. Once VIA has their own track, segments can be upgraded to HSR, starting off with low hanging fruit and then gradually moving to the more expensive bits. That could take time though.

[GoTrans]

Originally Posted by roger1818

Exactly. Also, from an Ontario perspective, when comparing Ontario populations, Kitchener–Waterloo and London's Metropolitan areas have a larger population combined (1018 million) than the City of Ottawa's (934 million), plus Guelph is larger than Peterborough. On top of that, the route is much shorter (just over half the length).

HFR can also be used as a stepping stone. Once VIA has their own track, segments can be upgraded to HSR, starting off with low hanging fruit and then gradually moving to the more expensive bits. That could take time though.

I would say you have your decimal places mixed up. Ottawa only has 900,00 people and approx 1.2 million in the whole region. London/Kitchener/Waterloo/Guelph is only about 800,000 people, not 1.018 million.

[phil235]

Originally Posted by roger1818

Exactly. Also, from an Ontario perspective, when comparing Ontario populations, Kitchener–Waterloo and London's Metropolitan areas have a larger population combined (1018 million) than the City of Ottawa's (934 million), plus Guelph is larger than Peterborough. On top of that, the route is much shorter (just over half the length).

HFR can also be used as a stepping stone. Once VIA has their own track, segments can be upgraded to HSR, starting off with low hanging fruit and then gradually moving to the more expensive bits. That could take time though.

I was more thinking that HSR makes more sense for large population centres separated by considerable distance. The lack of stops in between allows for higher speeds.

In a highly populated area like SW Ontario, you are never going to get the same speed, as it is full of mid-sized population centres that would be getting stops. The longest uninterrupted stretch of that line would be Kitchener-London, and that's only if they resist the urge to stop in Stratford. Hard to truly achieve high speed rail with so many stops.

[phil235]

Originally Posted by GoTrans

I would say you have your decimal places mixed up. Ottawa only has 900,00 people and approx 1.2 million in the whole region. London/Kitchener/Waterloo/Guelph is only about 800,000 people, not 1.018 million.

I think what he said was correct. KW metro is about 525,000, and London metro is just under 500,000. Guelph is another 150,000.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by GoTrans

I would say you have your decimal places mixed up.

Yes, I fixed my brain fart. It is thousands not millions.

Ottawa only has 900,00 people and approx 1.2 million in the whole region. London/Kitchener/Waterloo/Guelph is only about 800,000 people, not 1.018 million.

As phil235 said the KW metropolitan region has a population of 523 thousand and London has 494 thousand (according to Wikipedia).

I used city population for Ottawa because the Metropolitan region includes Gatineau (not in Ontario) and the post amalgamation city includes the vast majority of the population of the region in Ontario (the towns just outside city limits are just a blip on the total population).

Edit: I found a better population for Ottawa. The Ontario Portion of CMA is 992 thousand (according to this link), so an additional 59 thousand from the City itself.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by roger1818

Yes, I fixed my brain fart. It is thousands not millions.



As phil235 said the KW metropolitan region has a population of 523 thousand

That would include Cambridge, most of which would be pretty unlikely to benefit from any High Speed Rail project (you would be half way to Toronto by the time you made your way to Kitchener to catch a train).

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by acottawa

That would include Cambridge, most of which would be pretty unlikely to benefit from any High Speed Rail project (you would be half way to Toronto by the time you made your way to Kitchener to catch a train).

Don't forget there would be a stop in Guelph as well which they could use if more convenient.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by roger1818

Don't forget there would be a stop in Guelph as well which they could use if more convenient.

It certainly wouldn't be from downtown Cambridge (Galt section). Maybe from Hespler section of town.

This is one of the problems with this project: the distances are so short (and none of these cities have grade-separated rapid transit systems) that time savings are quickly eaten up by getting to these stations.

[J.OT13]

We should be working on a National Railway Plan (do it right, have the Provinces invest) and not let the Provinces work on their own pet projects that compete. Obviously, start with the Québec City-Windsor corridor and Edmonton-Calgary, and start extending afterwards.

[citydwlr]

@Rail613 has a few shots of the new platforms currently under construction at Tremblay station:

The new high level platform, steps and ramps almost finished at @VIA_Rail Ottawa Station. Allows Quebec City, Montreal, Toronto through trains to unload/load easily.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by PHrenetic

Good Day.

Investment -might- be on the horizon !?

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...ticle37714915/

Quote:
The Liberal government is sharpening its scrutiny of Via Rail's ambitious and costly expansion plans in the run-up to the 2018 budget.
While no final decisions have been made, the government appears to be working toward approving Via's $1.5-billion request for new trains in the short term.
UnQuote.

A major point, though - Quote:
.....
The combined proposal could cost more than $6-billion if it involved electric power.
However, the government is treating Via's pitch as two separate decisions. In an interview with The Globe and Mail, federal Transport Minister Marc Garneau expressed clear support for Via's fleet-renewal request.
UnQuote.

Summaries - Quote:
Via's proposal would mean the construction of a new line between Toronto and Ottawa through Peterborough that would use an abandoned rail line that is currently a recreational trail. Meanwhile in Quebec, Via is proposing new service between Montreal and Quebec City along the north shore of the St. Lawrence River through Trois-Rivières.
....
However, provincial government decisions in Ontario and Quebec have complicated matters. Ontario announced in October that it is planning a high-speed rail line from Toronto to London, and perhaps as far as Windsor. The plan has not received full funding from the province.
Ontario is looking at trains that would reach speeds of up to 250 kilometres per hour. In contrast, Via's plan would use traditional passenger trains, with top speeds of about 177 km/h. High-speed train lines are much more expensive, partly because they require full grade separation from intersecting roads.
Meanwhile in Quebec, the province's pension fund is leading a $6-billion commuter rail project called REM in the Montreal region that would have a new light-rail line enter the downtown through a tunnel. However, Via wants to run its heavy trains through that same tunnel as part of its proposed new line to Quebec City. Whether the two types of trains can share the tunnel is an unresolved issue.
UnQuote.

EnJoy!

Ah yes. More studies. That's what they are pledging before next year's election. Rail will never improve in this country. What use are shiny trains, if you're stuck behind freight.

I had high hopes for HFR. They got dashed. And with that, this government has also lost my vote. Tens of billions in deficit and they couldn't find the funds to get started on HFR?

[acottawa]

I think in this case a study is badly needed. There needs to be a better cost estimate and a reasonable analysis of other options. The estimate has already gone up fifty percent since it was proposed.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

We should be working on a National Railway Plan (do it right, have the Provinces invest) and not let the Provinces work on their own pet projects that compete. Obviously, start with the Québec City-Windsor corridor and Edmonton-Calgary, and start extending afterwards.

I don't disagree. Unfortunately, due to the long distances and small populations, I don't see any places where frequent, fast, intercity trains are feasible other than in the Ontario/Quebec Corridor and possibly Edmonton-Calgary.

We may want to re-evaluate how we provide service in the west though (on The Canadian especially). Even with extending The Canadian from 3 days to 4 days, its on time performance is still abysmal. The question is, does it make sense to run it as a single train from Toronto to Vancouver, with some cities only getting service in the middle of the night. A better option might be to break it up into shorter segments with an objective to provide daylight service to most cities, though some segments may still need to be overnight.