DENVER | Transportation Thread

[Mountain man]

^^ Come on guys, you don't want to start looking like a Salt Lake thread.

[Scottk]

^ if Denver can not get this issue under control soon it will begin to have serious negative impacts on downtown.

[TakeFive]

Originally Posted by wong21fr

Welp, now it's all up to the PUC to rubber-stamp the FRA's approval:

https://www.bizjournals.com/denver/n...ting-on-g.html
The Denver Business Journal

All I've got to add is "Who's on First?"

other than to say if the PUC has some specific action they need RTD to take, then specify it or get the hell out of the way.

[TakeFive]

Originally Posted by seventwenty

Ha. Sure, I'd like to talk about social service solutions through...

You're links are very interesting which leaves me with many questions but they're not particularly relevant. However I was once-upon-a-time quite liberal as well as being married to a therapist. But I always had a practical bent too. I can add that my son has an impressive list of HS friends who are no longer among us be it from an opiate OD or auto/motorcycle crashes where being under the influence was likely a factor. Talk about a waste of human capital. What's impressive about Denver is the significant investment put into working with those who do have problems.

So far as the 16th Street Mall goes, tens of $millions in improvements are needed and it needs to be a place for everybody and where everybody feels safe and isn't harassed. It's way too important of an investment to let the inmates run the asylum. DTP and the City have both invested heavily in making the mall a safer/better environment. While in a way it's unfortunate that they even have to but it is what it is and lots of money is being spent.

This also makes for a segue to my next comment.

[wong21fr]

Originally Posted by Scottk

^ if Denver can not get this issue under control soon it will begin to have serious negative impacts on downtown.

There's dedicated police patrols, private security, a camping ban, an upcoming smoking ban, etc., etc., etc. It's been made pretty unwelcome to the filth of society, but apparently that's not enough for some people. But, what do you think should be implemented? Homeless sweeps with confiscation of property, stop and frisk policies, loosened rules of force. These are all policies that could be introduced or ramped up- though they might be unconstitutional.

It's a public space at the nexus of several transit lines and located in close proximity to most of the transient/homeless services in the Denver Metro area. It's going to be nearly impossible to quash it to the point that you don't see the issue barring major changes such as privatizing the Mall, moving all of the shelters to Littleton, etc.

[jubguy3]

Originally Posted by Mountain man

^^ Come on guys, you don't want to start looking like a Salt Lake thread.

This is a really toxic attitude. Its important to address issues like this without being told that any and all discourse is an issue... arguments exist for a reason.

[TakeFive]

Originally Posted by Scottk

A lot of the girls I work with really don’t feel safe taking the train home from downtown late at night. Can’t say that I blame them... with all the homeless people and “scrubs” on the train at night. Shame that downtown seems to be infested with such people. I don’t even walk on 16th anymore, I’d rather walk 15th and hopefully be accosted by less homeless people and heroin junkies

Wow, I wasn't aware but not totally surprised. Phoenix has had their issues but I hadn't read much recently and their ridership is strong so I overlooked them. But, for example, they have given passes out to many homeless and given the desert heat it's been understandable. However...

BREAKING:
Valley Metro crackdown targets bad behavior on light rail
Oct. 13, 2017 by Jessica Boehm - azcentral.com

Valley Metro CEO Scott Smith says he hears one common refrain from people fed up with public transportation: "I won't ride the light rail anymore."

It worries him. "The perception of light rail as a safe transportation has suffered. And we hear it a lot," Smith said.

What's complicating is the bad behavior isn't necessarily 'criminal.'

So what are we gonna do Boss?

His agency hopes to fix the light rail's public image by implementing a new code of conduct that prohibits unruly behavior and gives light-rail security guards more flexibility to remove passengers.

The new rules will allow security guards to remove riders for loud or obnoxious antics, even if they're not technically breaking any laws. They will also crack down on passengers who ride the trains back and forth without exiting all day.

Whoa, a $450,000 budget for signage and implementation; what's that going to look like? Nvm, the images blow up too big but the signage is impressive. RTD, I assume has similar rules so it's all in communicating them and following through by enforcing them.

[TakeFive]

Originally Posted by wong21fr

It's a public space at the nexus of several transit lines and located in close proximity to most of the transient/homeless services in the Denver Metro area. It's going to be nearly impossible to quash it to the point that you don't see the issue barring major changes such as privatizing the Mall, moving all of the shelters to Littleton, etc.

I forgot... Who dis?

[wong21fr]

Originally Posted by TakeFive

I forgot... Who dis?

Little Wong of course.

[Mountain man]

Originally Posted by jubguy3

This is a really toxic attitude. Its important to address issues like this without being told that any and all discourse is an issue... arguments exist for a reason.

Take a joke man, don’t be sensitive. Besides I’m not that far off, it’s conversations like this that always start in the Salt Lake thread that turned it into the dumpster fire that it is. Don’t believe be go back and look. It’s unproductive, especially to argue the stupid points like “but no, let’s make Denver only for you.”

Also besides, you guys are currently off on a two page rant arguing about the correct way to properly say an address. So don’t expect people not to poke a little fun your way.

[Denver]

Originally Posted by seventwenty

Ha. Sure, I'd like to talk about social service solutions through partnerships, diversions in the justice system (but they do come with issues themselves), expanded intergovernmental action, etc etc etc.

EDIT: And we can also talk about how public safety issues affecting women and the resources to assit. I'm sure you knew all about it. And I'm sure you knew that all these issues of public safety and public spaces are not zero-sum, though they do come with problems.

But no. Let's make Denver for you only.

Seventwenty, what are the chances your work for the Public Defender's office?

I agree to you to a certain degree. However, the second someone starts using a public space to the exclusion of others, such as using drugs, threatening people who do not given them money, or urinating on the side walk, is it truly a public space? The right to use public space in my opinion comes with an unwritten rule that you need to be respectful of everyone else using the public space.

[twister244]

Originally Posted by Denver

I agree to you to a certain degree. However, the second someone starts using a public space to the exclusion of others, such as using drugs, threatening people who do not given them money, or urinating on the side walk, is it truly a public space? The right to use public space in my opinion comes with an unwritten rule that you need to be respectful of everyone else using the public space.

This. All of this. There is this unspoken social contract when you are in a public space. If a homeless person is chilling with a cup and a sign asking for money, or playing music to try to gather some money, I have no issue with this. However, this issue lies with people who begin to violate this social contract by harassing people for money, harassing other homeless/transients, urinating in public, and partaking in smoking/drugs in public. I feel like I haven't lived in Denver long enough to know if issues have improved or not with time on the mall. However, even up through this past summer, we have had multiple incidents of people being attacked on the mall. Perhaps I should have been more specific in my previous statement, specifying my beef is with those who create issues for others on the mall. And yes, the public space is for everyone, which means everyone should be able to enjoy the space equally.

[seventwenty]

Who makes the rules for this contract, Mr. Rousseau? Once you start making implied law, how do you enforce it? We already have problems with even enforcement of the laws we currently have.

Sure, I will acknowledge there are issues with the Mall, and the reasonable minds can differ on what needs to be done.

That doesn't mean I'm for a "just kick them off the Mall" approach. Where are they supposed to go? What services do they have? What about underlying problems associated with homelessness such as addiction and mental health problems? What about a cycle or criminality because now the homeless have a criminal record? The DOJ once weighed in on this matter. And some (but not many including RTD) transit agencies have form plans to deal with homelessness. As have other cities, like LA.

It's more complicated than just the Mall. And Denver's recognized this. If you want to read Denver's efforts, go here or here. Those are the Road Home plans, started in 2005, started under then-Mayor Hickenlooper, which had mixed results.

In May, Mayor Hancock spoke about revised homelessness plans, the HOPE program. You can read various action plans here, though not all are listed just yet.

[TakeFive]

Originally Posted by wong21fr

Little Wong of course.

I guess all 'little ones' are precious and hopefully precocious but that pic is hard to top. I suspect it's the chair that makes the difference. That photo is a great example for when in a couple of decades (or more) that can quickly bring both laughs and tears.

Originally Posted by twister244

I feel like I haven't lived in Denver long enough to know if issues have improved or not with time on the mall.

Going back to 2005/06, I've told the story before that Commons Park was my go-to place for a picnic lunch before Rockies games. Even in winter it was my spot, if I was downtown, to take a break and stretch my legs. Other than for a few others like me it was just the neighbors.

The issue was growing downtown ie 16th street when Hickenlooper started his ten-year vision in 2005 to eliminate homeless. At that time the goal seemed very reasonable given the extent of the problem.

It's only gotten much worse in general and on the Mall until last year when they significantly increased security on the Mall.

[TakeFive]

Originally Posted by seventwenty

Who makes the rules for this contract, Mr. Rousseau? Once you start making implied law, how do you enforce it?

You're trying to obfuscate things. Keep it simple.

We're talking about managing the 16th street mall so that everybody can enjoy it. Denver and twister244 have defined the line and it's up to the DPD to enforce it. It has nothing to do with one's status or looks; it's strictly about acceptable and unacceptable behavior.

They don't have the issues in Scottsdale because they don't allow it; they can't afford to; troublemakers aren't welcome. In Phoenix or Tempe which are more liberal is where the homeless end up. Fortunately to an extent, there are good sized parks down here not necessarily utilized that much where homeless can hang. Maybe in a few years when the deck park is finished they can hang there.

With homeless, you have the transitional due to temporary economic hardship who deserve empathy and fortunately Denver has built tons of transitional housing. You have the 'kids' who have slipped through the cracks and if they're potheads, then in addition to reaching out to them, having patience in waiting for them to mature is often all that's needed. Then you have the long-timers who don't care to hang out on 16th street and are generally a manageable population.

Then you have the 'troublemakers' with a variety of issues including behavior control that need to be somewhere else other than on the 16th street mall.

The explosion of opioid addiction is a nasty problem with no magical cure. While I much enjoyed the story of Alby Zweig he's sadly the exception. A lot of opioid OD deaths (as you might know) result from 'addicts' who are clean and lose their tolerance before giving into the need again.

As for the various specific issues from abusive relationships to other mental problems Denver has more help and resources available than most cities. Other than directing them to available services, it isn't a part of the job description for those watching over the 16th street mall.

[seventwenty]

Wait. You acknowledge there's a larger problem then lecture me for expanding on that problem? Seriously? You can't have it both ways.

And show your sources for your Arizona anecdotes.

[TakeFive]

Originally Posted by seventwenty

Wait. You acknowledge there's a larger problem then lecture me for expanding on that problem? Seriously? You can't have it both ways.

And show your sources for your Arizona anecdotes.

Managing the 16th street mall and the "larger problem" may interface but they're totally different issues. End of story.

What 'AZ anecdotes' are your referring to? I merely gave you an overview of Phoenix. How granular are you wanting? I'm not the local expert, I just have a fair and broad understanding... that's all.

[wong21fr]

Originally Posted by TakeFive

They don't have the issues in Scottsdale because they don't allow it; they can't afford to; troublemakers aren't welcome. In Phoenix or Tempe which are more liberal is where the homeless end up. Fortunately to an extent, there are good sized parks down here not necessarily utilized that much where homeless can hang. Maybe in a few years when the deck park is finished they can hang there.

Looking at Scottsdale, there's not a single emergency homeless shelter in a city of 250K- just some transition housing. So it seems like the issue is that Scottsdale exports it's homeless issue to the surrounding cities- similar to what happens in Denver where the city is on the receiving end. So I don't see much merit in pointing to Scottsdale as a shining example. It's easy to say that deviant behavior should be met suppressed via police action, but how far do you go? If one argues that DPD be arresting people for public urination, and then having heavy fines and/or jail sentences imposed upon a population that is the least likely to be able to recover from such a setback, I don't know if that solves the problem or if it just expands the population of serial public urinators that we rotate in and out of jail. We could always round up the homeless and hold them in camps until they can show that they are no longer homeless, but that damn Constitution gets in the way of that solution.

I vote for one-way tickets to Scottsdale. The disciples of Sheriff Joe will know what to do.

[TakeFive]

Sunday bus service in Fort Collins doubles ridership expectations
Sept. 15, 2017 by Kevin Duggan - The Coloradoan

Transit might finally be on a roll in Fort Collins.

Amid all the excitement around Colorado State University’s new on-campus stadium, Transfort, the city-owned transit system, came out looking like a star on opening day. On that day, Aug. 26, the entire Transfort system had about 21,000 boardings. That’s not bad, considering the average number of boardings on Saturdays when school is in session is around 7,000.

What were expectations?

“Even though we are already exceeding projections, I would expect to see continued ridership growth over the next two years as the community learns how transit can now become part of their Sunday travel,” he said. Launching 365-day transit service is a milestone for Transfort, which has seen steady growth in its ridership numbers in recent years.

[Cirrus]

Nashville is proposing a FasTracks-like transit package, and it includes a mile-long subway for light rail and buses, just like Seattle's.

Link to story


image from the Tennessean