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  #101  
Old Posted Feb 3, 2018, 5:32 PM
maccoinnich maccoinnich is online now
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Environmental Groups Blast New City-Funded All Timber Building for Shirking Environmental Standards
The innovative new material cross-laminated timber will be used to create the tallest all-timber high-rise in the United States. Enviros worry that promotes clear-cutting.



Developers could break ground as soon as March 1 on the nation's tallest all-timber highrise, thanks to a innovative building material hailed by Oregon's lumber industry and Gov. Kate Brown.

Boosters of the innovative product—cross-laminated timber—say it offers something for everyone: the potential to revitalize the rural Oregon timber economy and the potential to be friendlier to the environment than the building materials such as the concrete it replaces.

But now a group of leading environmental groups are raising questions about that last claim—and they are taking their argument to one of the new building's leading funders—the city of Portland.

Critics say the 12-story Framework building, which will be in the the Pearl District and include 60 units of affordable housing, relies on manufactured wood products that are not subject to sustainable harvest standards established by the Forest Stewardship Council.
...continues at the Willamette Week.
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  #102  
Old Posted Feb 4, 2018, 9:23 AM
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You can't please everyone all the time, CLT is a great direction for construction in Oregon.
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  #103  
Old Posted Feb 7, 2018, 9:22 AM
zilfondel zilfondel is offline
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I mean, they have some points, but it is somewhat doubtful that the number of CLT buildings that will be built will have any major impact to Oregon's forests.
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  #104  
Old Posted Feb 7, 2018, 3:38 PM
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Originally Posted by zilfondel View Post
I mean, they have some points, but it is somewhat doubtful that the number of CLT buildings that will be built will have any major impact to Oregon's forests.
Well, unless they increase the number of CLT buildings in the future, the whole approach is kind of pointless. They need to drive costs down significantly, and they’ll need volume for that; right now, it is much more expensive than conventional construction. And in order for any of their claims of environmental friendliness come true, they will need to become a significant proportion of conventional construction.

I’m undecided about what to think of their claims to environmental friendliness. My guess would be that the material used to glue the small pieces of wood together is probably not all that great for the environment, both in this application and in its own manufacture...
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  #105  
Old Posted Feb 20, 2018, 6:48 AM
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  #106  
Old Posted Feb 20, 2018, 5:06 PM
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Originally Posted by HillsboroTech View Post
No kidding, I will almost be retired by the time it gets built!


dezeen
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  #107  
Old Posted Feb 21, 2018, 4:19 PM
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Originally Posted by zilfondel View Post
No kidding, I will almost be retired by the time it gets built!


dezeen
Quick math.....Lets just assume that the Proposed Japanese building @ 1148' required 100,000 trees of sizable diameter (12-20" DBH) to build the custom sized planks/panels needed for construction. Also assume 10-12 ft spacing between trees which would equate to about 330 trees per acre. This structure would require a clear cut over 300 acres ( nearly a 1/2 mile sq.).
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  #108  
Old Posted Feb 21, 2018, 5:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Natural View Post
Quick math.....Lets just assume that the Proposed Japanese building @ 1148' required 100,000 trees of sizable diameter (12-20" DBH) to build the custom sized planks/panels needed for construction. Also assume 10-12 ft spacing between trees which would equate to about 330 trees per acre. This structure would require a clear cut over 300 acres ( nearly a 1/2 mile sq.).
"Bernard Bormann, director of the University of Washington’s Olympic Natural Resources Center in Forks, is exploring possibilities for a sustainable source of timber in the area to feed a CLT mill for the long-term. He and other forest scientists say targeting small diameter trees such as hemlock would make use of trees that have historically been thinned from forests and left in place, pulped, or piled and burned. At the same time, says Bormann, scientists could manage forests for CLT harvesting in a way that actually increases forest health, by, for instance, increasing wildlife habitat and food supply to salmon fry in streams."

Full article:

https://forterra.org/editorial/break...minated-timber
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  #109  
Old Posted Feb 21, 2018, 7:57 PM
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Thanks for that, Eric! That's fascinating.
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  #110  
Old Posted Feb 21, 2018, 11:47 PM
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I would enjoy seeing Portland getting a new tallest and it be a wood tower.
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  #111  
Old Posted Mar 4, 2018, 2:56 AM
zilfondel zilfondel is offline
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Originally Posted by Natural View Post
Quick math.....Lets just assume that the Proposed Japanese building @ 1148' required 100,000 trees of sizable diameter (12-20" DBH) to build the custom sized planks/panels needed for construction. Also assume 10-12 ft spacing between trees which would equate to about 330 trees per acre. This structure would require a clear cut over 300 acres ( nearly a 1/2 mile sq.).
Yeah, its a lot of wood but the CO2 produced from concrete and steel production is quite high.

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For the past 100 years, timber harvests in Oregon have averaged 5.9 billion board feet. Well over half a trillion board feet has been harvested from Oregon forests in that time. Remarkably, for more than 50 years, 1941-1991, the annual statewide harvest level exceeded 6 billion board feet every year but two (the recession of 1981-82). Today, statewide harvest is relatively lower, about 4 billion board feet, and mostly comes from private forestlands. Harvest on federal timberlands, which cover more than 13 million acres in Oregon, declined precipitously in the early ’90s and has remained low in the 25 years since.
4 billion board feet of timber per year harvested

According to dezeen, the tower will use 185,000 cubic metres of wood. That is equal to 78,398,560 board feet of wood or 1.6% of Oregon's annual timber harvest.

More generally, I'd say that skyscrapers are not sustainable. Low/mid construction is much more resource efficient.

Recycled steel may be the most efficient, but at least we can grow more wood without digging giant holes in the ground.

source
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  #112  
Old Posted Mar 4, 2018, 3:28 AM
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Originally Posted by zilfondel View Post
More generally, I'd say that skyscrapers are not sustainable. Low/mid construction is much more resource efficient.
No argument here with this statement, but I will note that the vast majority of Portland is not zoned for low/mid construction, so high rises in the central city are the regional solution to growth management. Spreading out will decrease land use and transportation efficiency.

Last edited by RED_PDXer; Mar 4, 2018 at 3:41 AM.
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  #113  
Old Posted Jul 17, 2018, 12:04 AM
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Plans for Record-Setting Timber Tower in Downtown Portland Fall Through
The building faced a funding shortfall despite significant pledged of public dollars.



The deal to build a record-setting wooden Portland tower that was expected to be the tallest in North America is off.

Framework, which was designed to be 12 stories including a roof deck, was to be constructed from cross-laminated timber, an innovative lumber product made by gluing sheets of wood together.

Two sources, one at City Hall, tell WW the cost of building the project proved too high.

Framework's developer, a Portland developer called ^project, had received commitments from the city and the county housing authority for affordable housing subsidies—despite a whopping price tag.
...continues at the Willamette Week.
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  #114  
Old Posted Jul 17, 2018, 2:58 PM
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Originally Posted by maccoinnich View Post
This project always seemed oddly targeted to me. It would make more sense for the risk of new building technology to be borne by those who can afford it. A high-end apartment building would make much more sense than a low-end building.

In order for this method to become popular and drive costs down, it has to be perceived as cool and desireable, not associated with low-income housing.
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  #115  
Old Posted Jul 18, 2018, 3:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Leo View Post
In order for this method to become popular and drive costs down, it has to be perceived as cool and desireable, not associated with low-income housing.
Because people that are "low-income" shouldn't live in buildings that might be considered cool or desirable? I strongly disagree.

I'm disappointed this vision will not come to fruition. However, this is a phenomenal location. I hope all the players involved can come together and develop a project that will fit within the budget.
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  #116  
Old Posted Jul 18, 2018, 5:15 AM
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Originally Posted by MarkDaMan View Post
Because people that are "low-income" shouldn't live in buildings that might be considered cool or desirable? I strongly disagree.

I'm disappointed this vision will not come to fruition. However, this is a phenomenal location. I hope all the players involved can come together and develop a project that will fit within the budget.
$567,000 per unit to build this with CLT . . . my word.

I'm with Leo, doesn't make financial sense for an affordable housing project.

Develop CLT technology on $1MM condos, then use for affordable housing when the industry has brought down costs a lot.

In the meantime, build affordable housing on this site using more conventional materials.
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  #117  
Old Posted Jul 18, 2018, 3:31 PM
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Up north, we're watching Portland on the CLT topic because it'll be more broadly allowed soon.

Low-income housing using CLT? "Deserving" it is beside the point. We need to leverage finite money to house more people. That means cost-effective buildings (first cost, life cycle cost, effects on other systems such as heating demands, permanence, etc.).
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  #118  
Old Posted Jul 18, 2018, 7:06 PM
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Originally Posted by MarkDaMan View Post
Because people that are "low-income" shouldn't live in buildings that might be considered cool or desirable? I strongly disagree.

I'm disappointed this vision will not come to fruition. However, this is a phenomenal location. I hope all the players involved can come together and develop a project that will fit within the budget.
I'm not trying to render judgement on what I think people should or shouldn't have. I'm merely predicting what I think will happen based on how I think people behave in real life. If the most visible application of CLT is for low-income housing, then CLT will become stigmatized by it, and it will not gain wider acceptance purely because of it, regardless CLT's technical merits.

In addition, any growing pains this new construction method may experience should not be borne by people who can least afford to deal with it. In a high-end apartment building, if a resident has to move out for two weeks for someone to come and fix something, it is suboptimal, but not a disaster. That person can likely stay at friends or relatives, or rent something else for a few weeks because they have good credit and some cash reserves to tide them over. For a poor person, having to move out for two weeks could be a disaster.

In this sense, Tesla did it exactly right - their first electric car was an electric Lotus Elise, not a cheap commuter car. This is clearly a toy for most people, not a daily driver. When there were bugs to work out, it was a toy that doesn't work, not someone's livelihood. And they made new technology cool and desirable by producing possibly the first electric car that didn't look completely dorky... This really helped electric cars gain some more interest from the general population. It wouldn't have worked if their first car had been an electric Chevette.
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  #119  
Old Posted Jul 18, 2018, 7:33 PM
AdamUrbanist AdamUrbanist is offline
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Architects don’t chose concrete or steel structural systems for their luxury cache, they chose whatever is the most practical and economical system for the project. I don’t see why CLT would be any different.
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  #120  
Old Posted Jul 18, 2018, 9:28 PM
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Originally Posted by mhays View Post
Low-income housing using CLT? "Deserving" it is beside the point. We need to leverage finite money to house more people. That means cost-effective buildings (first cost, life cycle cost, effects on other systems such as heating demands, permanence, etc.).
I agree 100%

I suspect people have forgotten that this building was NOT initially proposed as affordable housing. It evolved into affordable housing when they failed to find another way to get it built. Affordable housing never made sense for this project because the costs were just too high. That's a shame.

$567,000 per unit doesn't make sense for affordable housing. More units could be built for less, and it should be obvious that more units mean housing more people.

As the trade wars heat up and political chaos sets in, I'd expect to see more projects cancelled or at least stalled.
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