NBA commissioner regrets Vancouver expansion

[Vancity]

Originally Posted by Distill3d

from my understanding USL-1 is the second tier in the soccer pyramid, however i would constitute it as a major league as USL-1 champions do not automatically move into MLS and the worst teams in the MLS do not move into USL-1. for all intents and purposes it is a separate league.

Isn't a second tier league, a minor league, then? In my understanding, the CFL is a second-tier league to the NFL (the major sports league in North America). So in that respects, isn't the USL Division 1, a second tier to the MLS (the major sports league for soccer in North America)?

[jlousa]

When some of the teams in the USL are better the a chunk of the teams in the MSL I'm pretty sure that rules out being labeled as a minor league.

The CFL as well isn't a minor league, sure it's not as glam as the NFL but it's a different product in a different market.

Not sure why people still think that the NBA would've survived here if it had been marketed towards Asians. The problem for the Grizzilies was never people in the stands, they had better attendace then quite a bit of the other teams in the league. The problems arose after the team was offloaded, they had to pay rent to use GM Place, the Cad dollar sucked, the team had a hard time attracting players and mangement to the city for whatever reasons, and the new owner bought the team for the purpose of moving it. Heck I beleive we had 12.5K season ticket holders even at the end, a few more wouldn't have stoped what happened from happening.

[twoNeurons]

But I think going forward, it will be hard to argue that MLS is the big player. It's being marketed that way.

We don't need division in Soccer right now. We need a league that can attract some talent. I like the idea of bumping teams between USL and MLS but I don't think we quite have the talent to do so yet. In the Premier League, it can be argued that ever lower leagues have teams that are as good as many of the Premier league teams which is why they hop up and down the tiers as they get better.

Premier league obviously is where the money is, but there is no lack of talent in lower tiers. It's a little different in North American leagues, where talent is more concentrated in the one Pro-leaugue in each sport. NHL (WHL, AHL), NBAA (NCAA?), NFL.

It will be interesting to see how USL and MLS work out.

[Vancity]

Originally Posted by jlousa

When some of the teams in the USL are better the a chunk of the teams in the MSL I'm pretty sure that rules out being labeled as a minor league.

The CFL as well isn't a minor league, sure it's not as glam as the NFL but it's a different product in a different market.

Not sure why people still think that the NBA would've survived here if it had been marketed towards Asians. The problem for the Grizzilies was never people in the stands, they had better attendace then quite a bit of the other teams in the league. The problems arose after the team was offloaded, they had to pay rent to use GM Place, the Cad dollar sucked, the team had a hard time attracting players and mangement to the city for whatever reasons, and the new owner bought the team for the purpose of moving it. Heck I beleive we had 12.5K season ticket holders even at the end, a few more wouldn't have stoped what happened from happening.

So, if season ticket holders were not the problem, then what was the problem in that the Grizzlies moved to Memphis? I personally think any new team (in the future) that comes on board, need to establish some kind of grass roots programs, to reach kids, and youths, because really, if the new product (i.e. NBA, NLL, whatever it may be) in town wants to establish a growing fan base, they need to start with the next generation. Would this take some time? Yes, and it may start slow, but in the long term, it would benefit the organization/franchise, and the people they are trying to reach. It would, eventually, become a part of the culture, because they've been active in the community, and reaching people.

If the MLS comes to Vancouver, they could continue to use their grassroots programs, but really, for them it's not necessary, because soccer already has deep roots here in this city. It's almost as old as hockey here in this city. the roots are long, and firm. whereas, for basketball, or even baseball, or lacrosse for that matter (because the lacrosse community is so small in Van), need to establish grassroots programs to establish their product within the community.

Asians, particularly chinese people, are very interested in basketball, and Yao Ming has made a pretty good impression, and has made a lot of chinese people proud. Basketball is becoming more of a global sport, than it has been (of course, soccer is the #1 global sport) in the past. Some moves, such as trading Bibby for Nash (a few years ago) would've have done miracles for this franchise - just having a local boy here. Trading for Yao Ming would've done wonders for the city, simply because there is a firm root of chinese community here, but also because there is a growing interest in basketball fans of the NBA.

But all that is moot, because none of it happened. What I don't understand is why the NBA allowed the owner (Michael Heisley) to purchase the Grizzlies, with the sole purpose of moving the club after the season? Because of that, I hope Stern retires soon. The league is really going down under, under his leadership - errr...lack thereof.

[Vancity]

Originally Posted by tintinium

But I think going forward, it will be hard to argue that MLS is the big player. It's being marketed that way.

We don't need division in Soccer right now. We need a league that can attract some talent. I like the idea of bumping teams between USL and MLS but I don't think we quite have the talent to do so yet. In the Premier League, it can be argued that ever lower leagues have teams that are as good as many of the Premier league teams which is why they hop up and down the tiers as they get better.

Premier league obviously is where the money is, but there is no lack of talent in lower tiers. It's a little different in North American leagues, where talent is more concentrated in the one Pro-leaugue in each sport. NHL (WHL, AHL), NBAA (NCAA?), NFL.

It will be interesting to see how USL and MLS work out.

I think the concept is different between the Premier League, and the leagues that we have here in North America. You are right when you say that most of the talent (if not all of the talent) is concentrated in the major leagues - or, in other terms, the big leagues. That's why each major sport (NHL, NFL, NBA, MLS, etc) have all the top talents (maybe with the exception of the MLS - for now), and the other leagues i.e. CFL, USL, WHL, AHL, etc are considered minor leagues (lesser talent). They are leagues that either do not have the best talent in the continent, or they are developing the talent for the big leagues (kind of like how the Vancouver Canadians baseball team's players are being developed and can be called up by the big club - the Oakland A's).

The CFL, for example, cannot compete with the NFL (for some pretty obvious reasons, $$). An example is that whenever a player in the CFL has an opportunity to make it to the NFL, they do (i.e. Cam Wake), and when they don't, then come back to the CFL to play football (where else are they going to go?). CFL is, in my opinion because the NFL exists, is seen by many as a minor league, with second tier players, not the best. In the eyes of Canadians, however, the CFL is our major league (it's the best professional canadian football league in Canada).

I think the MLS will eventually attract the top tier players, whether they are getting older in age (i.e. Beckham) when they come over - well, that's another issue (not being able to attract the top tier players in their prime, like players from the Premier League). The USL, unless they can come up with better stadiums for their clubs, a better marketing ploy, etc., they will eventually succumb to becoming "known" (whether they are or not is a different story) as a minor league system for the MLS.

[Rusty Gull]

I watched the Canada Day game between the Whitecaps and Toronto FC, in Toronto. It was definitely "major league" -- from a sporting perspective, from a television perspective, and from a fan perspective.

If we can bring that back to Vancouver, in the way of the MLS, we will be very, very well served.

Like some above posters, I don't see a future for the other major leagues. The NFL will never move here because of the CFL; baseball is a lost cause, and most Vancouverites don't follow it closely enough to make a franchise viable; and there's too much bad blood following the NBA's departure 8 years ago.

I would argue that a Vancouver with the NHL and MLS, plus the tier-two leagues like the CFL, and then the smaller franchises like the Giants and the Canadians would make for a pretty good sports culture.

[Vancity]

Originally Posted by Rusty Gull

I watched the Canada Day game between the Whitecaps and Toronto FC, in Toronto. It was definitely "major league" -- from a sporting perspective, from a television perspective, and from a fan perspective.

If we can bring that back to Vancouver, in the way of the MLS, we will be very, very well served.

Like some above posters, I don't see a future for the other major leagues. The NFL will never move here because of the CFL; baseball is a lost cause, and most Vancouverites don't follow it closely enough to make a franchise viable; and there's too much bad blood following the NBA's departure 8 years ago.

I would argue that a Vancouver with the NHL and MLS, plus the tier-two leagues like the CFL, and then the smaller franchises like the Giants and the Canadians would make for a pretty good sports culture.

I could see Vancouver getting a MLB franchise way down the road (past my lifetime), but I could see MLB being interested in Vancouver. The gateway to Asia, who wouldn't want to invest in Vancouver, and make it work? It's weird, besides hockey, we really haven't had a chance of having too much of a variety and vibrant sports culture (like Toronto having a variety of major league sports there).

Brings me to another question, would the Vancouver Canadians ever play in BC Place? I remember seeing an article that the Canadians were considering it for the future. hm.

[Distill3d]

i think if we take a serious look back at anything that is marketed to Asians, it'll just be another flash in the pan. we should seriously consider what would happen when the NBA novelty wears off again after 5 years in Vancouver? i mean, its eventually going to go the way of Pokemon and Tamiguchi Pets. its not a wise idea to just market to one specific crowd because they feel left out of the picture. NBA would have to be marketed to everyone in Vancouver as a viable sports alternative. any sport in Canada is going to have first compete with the NHL, the CFL, and then which ever CHL league is represented for that area (WHL, OHL, QMJHL).

MLS is the smartest approach. it would be taking a team with a pre-existing fan base, moving it into another league, and expanding the fan base.

one may have to consider that even if we were awarded an NBA franchise for 2011, it would be moving to Seattle for the 2013 season. for now, if you want to see a live NBA game though, Portland is only 5 hours and 15 minutes from GM Place...

[Vancity]

Originally Posted by Distill3d

i think if we take a serious look back at anything that is marketed to Asians, it'll just be another flash in the pan. we should seriously consider what would happen when the NBA novelty wears off again after 5 years in Vancouver? i mean, its eventually going to go the way of Pokemon and Tamiguchi Pets. its not a wise idea to just market to one specific crowd because they feel left out of the picture. NBA would have to be marketed to everyone in Vancouver as a viable sports alternative. any sport in Canada is going to have first compete with the NHL, the CFL, and then which ever CHL league is represented for that area (WHL, OHL, QMJHL).

MLS is the smartest approach. it would be taking a team with a pre-existing fan base, moving it into another league, and expanding the fan base.

one may have to consider that even if we were awarded an NBA franchise for 2011, it would be moving to Seattle for the 2013 season. for now, if you want to see a live NBA game though, Portland is only 5 hours and 15 minutes from GM Place...

I'm not saying that we should just market to a specific crowd, but for the most part, the chinese population was probably left out. there was an article recently (someone posted it), and it said that the Grizzlies didn't reach the asian population in Vancouver until their last year, and by that time, it was too little, too late. I think it would have helped. that's why, like I mentioned before, the Grizzlies needed to have started a grassroots program for youths, and to be even more involved and active in the community. i'm not saying Vancouver will get an NBA franchise again, but it's not uncommon for the NBA to go back to the cities they've left. Maybe the league does come back, through relocation, or even a franchise down the road - when that time is - I don't know, but Vancouver can support an NBA team, an NHL team, a WHL team, and an MLS team, and maybe even an NLL team (a reborn Ravens team?). it's too bad that the fans in this city are "band-wagon" fans

I agree that MLS is the best approach to landing another major league franchise. and hopefully the MLS does grant Vancouver a franchise and starts soon i'd definitely be on board in supporting a new team in the city. i'm always supportive of major league teams coming in, and giving this city more sporting entertainment alternatives.

I would not drive all the way down to Portland to watch an NBA game. Sorry, bu it's just too far. Seattle, for me, was an alternative, before the Sonics left, but the Blazers are just too far. just too much of my time wasted driving down to watch a game. i'd rather watch it on tv.

[jlousa]

Vancity, you might now be old enough to remember but the Grizziles did everything you think they should of. They were heavily involved in both the Asian community and with youth. Heck they built a pratice facility in Richmond that was dedicated to their youth programs when not in use by the Grizzilies. The Grizzilies left because the new owner wanted them to. We will not get another NBA team anytime soon, although who knows 20yrs out. As for MLB I don't think ever, the truth is very few people care enough for baseball here, heck even most american cities are building smaller stadiums and attendance during weekday games are at almost alltime lows.

[Vancity]

Originally Posted by jlousa

Vancity, you might now be old enough to remember but the Grizziles did everything you think they should of. They were heavily involved in both the Asian community and with youth. Heck they built a pratice facility in Richmond that was dedicated to their youth programs when not in use by the Grizzilies. The Grizzilies left because the new owner wanted them to. We will not get another NBA team anytime soon, although who knows 20yrs out. As for MLB I don't think ever, the truth is very few people care enough for baseball here, heck even most american cities are building smaller stadiums and attendance during weekday games are at almost alltime lows.

Hey Jlousa. Yep, I remember the practice facility in Richmond. I always wondered why they built it so far from GM Place. I know that Heisley wanted the team to leave, it's too bad the NBA did leave, and your probably right in that the NBA will not return to vancouver, as long as (I think) stern is in charge. when Stern is gone (and he will step down eventually), I think there might be a chance the city can get the NBA back. there is always hope

As for MLB. one can dream, can't they? it's too bad that there is not a market for baseball here. i quite enjoy it, and i'm probably the minority in that regards. well, at least the city might be getting an MLS franchise, that's something to look forward to. now only if they can get a stadium for the whitecaps built. if not in vancouver, they really should look elsewhere to build. downtown vancouver ain't the only place (although, probably ideal).

[Distill3d]

Originally Posted by Vancity

Vancouver can support an NBA team, an NHL team, a WHL team, and an MLS team, and maybe even an NLL team (a reborn Ravens team?). it's too bad that the fans in this city are "band-wagon" fans

could Vancouver support that many teams? do we really have the population base for it?

as for being bandwagon fans, thats true of any sports city. populations want a winning team, and can you blame them? so do owners, its more profitable.

if the Canucks were in the bottom 5 teams in the league for 5 years in a row, do you honestly think they would be able to sell as many season tickets and/or mechandise? and after 10 years in the basement, if the owners sold the team to investors in say Milwaukee, i'm sure only the small amount of loyal fans would care if a losing Canucks team relocated.

[Vancity]

Originally Posted by Distill3d

could Vancouver support that many teams? do we really have the population base for it?

as for being bandwagon fans, thats true of any sports city. populations want a winning team, and can you blame them? so do owners, its more profitable.

if the Canucks were in the bottom 5 teams in the league for 5 years in a row, do you honestly think they would be able to sell as many season tickets and/or mechandise? and after 10 years in the basement, if the owners sold the team to investors in say Milwaukee, i'm sure only the small amount of loyal fans would care if a losing Canucks team relocated.

Well, among the list of leagues, we're already supporting the NHL (Canucks), WHL (Giants), CFL (Lions), and maybe, maybe the NLL (we'll see...maybe this proposal is already dead). But like a poster said earlier, the NLL is considered a "bush league", so really, out of the five that I've listed originally, we're already currently supporting 3 of them. we can support an NBA franchise, whether we do in a few years or 20 years - I dunno (probably the latter, if ever). But I believe there is a market for the NBA here in Vancouver. It can work, with some smart management.

Well, there are some really bad teams out there. The LA Clippers of the NBA have been a horrible team for many, many years. The Blue Jays have been mediocre-bad, the Atlanta Thrashers have been very bad. I think every city, of course, wants their teams to do well. when a city lands a team, they're proud of them, and that team represents their city. i remember when the canucks (hard to imagine) weren't doing so well, and were threatening to relocate to another city. could you imagine the sporting void in this city if the canucks, a major sporting entertainment, left? wow. craziness.

no team ever wants to support a bad team. i remembered following the Grizzlies, even at their worst. i'm a loyal fan, and i follow and support my vancouver teams am i disappointed when my teams don't do so well? of course, but that doesn't mean i "jump off" the bandwagon, only to get "on it" again when they're doing well. i'm supportive of them through thick and thin ^^ you have fans like that in certain cities. Boston is one of those cities, that's why it's such a great sports city.

metro vancouver's population is only going to get larger. it's not going to shrink, so I don't think it's much of a concern.

[EastVanMark]

Originally Posted by jlousa

When some of the teams in the USL are better the a chunk of the teams in the MSL I'm pretty sure that rules out being labeled as a minor league.

The CFL as well isn't a minor league, sure it's not as glam as the NFL but it's a different product in a different market.

Not sure why people still think that the NBA would've survived here if it had been marketed towards Asians. The problem for the Grizzilies was never people in the stands, they had better attendace then quite a bit of the other teams in the league. The problems arose after the team was offloaded, they had to pay rent to use GM Place, the Cad dollar sucked, the team had a hard time attracting players and mangement to the city for whatever reasons, and the new owner bought the team for the purpose of moving it. Heck I beleive we had 12.5K season ticket holders even at the end, a few more wouldn't have stoped what happened from happening.

The Grizzlies had 12,000 season tickets sold for year one of the franchise which was the last requirement to officially being granted a franchise. By the last season, they were rumored to only have about 6000 season ticket holders, heck even the Canucks didn't even have 12,000 season ticket holders back then. Also, the Grizzlies ticket count was grossly papered and they in the bottom 20% in actual tickets sold. Their "real" attendance was rumored to be anywhere from 9,000 a game to no higher than 12,000.

[EastVanMark]

Originally Posted by jlousa

Vancity, you might now be old enough to remember but the Grizziles did everything you think they should of. They were heavily involved in both the Asian community and with youth. Heck they built a pratice facility in Richmond that was dedicated to their youth programs when not in use by the Grizzilies. The Grizzilies left because the new owner wanted them to. We will not get another NBA team anytime soon, although who knows 20yrs out. As for MLB I don't think ever, the truth is very few people care enough for baseball here, heck even most american cities are building smaller stadiums and attendance during weekday games are at almost alltime lows.

Although they did do plenty with the youth of the area, the Grizzlies did nothing with the Asian community in terms of marketing.

[jlousa]

According to the stats Vancouvers attendance while not great was quite respectable here are the figures.

Vancouver Grizzlies 1995-96 41 17,183
Vancouver Grizzlies 1996-97 41 16,571
Vancouver Grizzlies 1997-98 41 16,109
Vancouver Grizzlies 1998-99 25 16,719
Vancouver Grizzlies 1999-00 41 13,899
Vancouver Grizzlies 2000-01 41 13,737

Memphis Grizzlies 2001-02 41 14,415
Memphis Grizzlies 2002-03 41 14,910
Memphis Grizzlies 2003-04 41 15,188
Memphis Grizzlies 2004-05 41 16,862

Pretty good considering the product that was put out and the fact the last 2 years everyone knew the team was on the verge of leaving. Sorry the stats source I found ended in 04-05 now sure what Memphis's current numbers are.

Heres some of the targeting they did for the asian population

"With a large Asian population, the team markets heavily to this demographic base. The Grizzlies also have the distinction of being the first team to broadcast its play by play in 3 different languages - English, Spanish and Mandarin!"

[Yume-sama]

Why Spanish and not... I don't know... French?

[Kodii]

Originally Posted by jlousa

"With a large Asian population, the team markets heavily to this demographic base. The Grizzlies also have the distinction of being the first team to broadcast its play by play in 3 different languages - English, Spanish and Mandarin!"

Am I wrong to say they screwed up their statistics and were probably better off broadcasting in Cantonese rather than Mandarin? Perhaps being from Abbotsford doesn't exactly do justice to my knowledge of the Asian population in Vancouver, Richmond, Burnaby etc, but just about all the Chinese people I know from there have their origins in Hong Kong...

[Vancity]

Originally Posted by Kodii

Am I wrong to say they screwed up their statistics and were probably better off broadcasting in Cantonese rather than Mandarin? Perhaps being from Abbotsford doesn't exactly do justice to my knowledge of the Asian population in Vancouver, Richmond, Burnaby etc, but just about all the Chinese people I know from there have their origins in Hong Kong...

Right on the money. A lot of the chinese population (at least in Richmond) have Cantonese origins, and are, for the most part, Cantonese speaking. Even in Vancouver, most of the chinese there are cantonese speaking (just go to chinatown). There are some Mandarin, and more of them are coming from mainland China, and Taiwan - but the Grizzlies probably missed the Cantonese speaking population, if they were broadcasting their games in Mandarin.

[Vancity]

Originally Posted by EastVanMark

Although they did do plenty with the youth of the area, the Grizzlies did nothing with the Asian community in terms of marketing.

Do you know specifically how they didn't market to the Asian community?