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  #81  
Old Posted Jan 21, 2017, 11:27 AM
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Originally Posted by 1overcosc View Post
I can definitely see that happening. In addition to the arrival of Belleville Senators, there's also the fact that Kingston is slowly switching from the Leafs to the Sens, and Belleville tends to follow what Kingston does. Eventually most of the 613 will probably be Sens turf.
This probably has a little to do with how awful the Leafs have been over the passed decade also, whereas the Sens have been half decent. You might see people jump back on the Leafs bandwagon as they look like they're on an ascenion of being elite for a good long while. The Sens on the other hand are stuck in no mans land of not being either good or bad.
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  #82  
Old Posted Jan 21, 2017, 12:25 PM
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And who knows? Maybe the Sens will eventually fill their arena when the Habs or the Leafs aren't visiting.

But to get off hockey attendance, it's been a while since I lived in Kingston, but the city must have changed a great deal if the primary big city orientation of most folks is not either to Toronto or Montreal, depending on the circumstances of the individuals.
I think what most people have said on here is that Kingston is more split between Toronto and Ottawa.
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  #83  
Old Posted Jan 21, 2017, 2:39 PM
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I think what most people have said on here is that Kingston is more split between Toronto and Ottawa.
Got that. And based on my experience living in Kingston, which I admit is dated, I am expressing doubt about the strength of the Ottawa connection. It would have to have changed a lot since my time to be so Ottawa focused.

I also think a couple of posters are overestimating the popularity of the Sens, given their attendance woes but that's just an in passing remark.
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  #84  
Old Posted Jan 21, 2017, 2:45 PM
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Got that. And based on my experience living in Kingston, which I admit is dated, I am expressing doubt about the strength of the Ottawa connection. It would have to have changed a lot since my time to be so Ottawa focused.

I also think a couple of posters are overestimating the popularity of the Sens, given their attendance woes but that's just an in passing remark.
So it's all Toronto for Kingston then? Cause I don't see Montreal in the picture.

You are right about the Sens having limited geographic reach.
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  #85  
Old Posted Jan 21, 2017, 3:34 PM
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So it's all Toronto for Kingston then? Cause I don't see Montreal in the picture.

You are right about the Sens having limited geographic reach.
No, there was also a connection to Montreal, as I recall. Our next door neighbour was a retired Montreal police officer, for example. I knew other people who had made similar moves. Their orientation was to Montreal. In another thread, I mentioned a deli in downtown Kingston which sold Montreal style bagels and Toronto style bagels on alternate days. That's a "sphere of influence" thing! (Somebody objected to the phrase Toronto style bagels by the way.)

Queen's thought often about U of T or McGill but rarely the Ottawa universities, as far as I could tell. And they certainly tried to tap the pockets of Toronto area alumni.

In five years living and working there, I went to Ottawa once. That didn't seem unusual, as I recall. The one real Ottawa connection I recall was a sad one, a neighbour child in the children's hospital in Ottawa. But another serious case went to Sick Kids in Toronto. I was a blood match for her, but sadly, it didn't help.

I repeat that this was some time ago. Maybe things have changed. But it would have to be a big change to be a Toronto Ottawa split.

PS. The easing of political tensions and the diminishing of the Anglo flight from Quebec may well have decreased the Montreal connection. As I think about it, I realize I knew a lot of Montreal "expats."
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  #86  
Old Posted Jan 21, 2017, 8:05 PM
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Medicine Hat has some influence, particularly commercial/retail trade with SW Saskatchewan & Fort McMurray has some influence for people in Buffalo Narrows & LaLoche in NW Saskatchewan, Much like Saskatoon has influence over The Pas & Flin Flon in Manitoba.
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The way I look at it, a proper sphere of influence entails the city in question having a material social, economic or otherwise tangible effect on the surrounding area. I don't think that just because a place is within driving distance of a city, that the city has any particular influence over it. If Edmonton fell off the face of the earth, would that affect Central BC at all really ? I doubt it. Most of the resource jobs in the Central/ North areas are with Vancouver or Calgary based companies, so I'd say those two have more influence than Edmonton would

Another way to look at it, Kelowna for instance has in the past 20 years developed into quite the playground for lower mainlanders, and I would guess than the local economy in Kelowna depends to a certain degree on the wealthy Vancouverites buying lakeview houses and dining in the upscale restaurants and otherwise contributing to the economy. A half an hour up the road in Vernon, That is not in any way close to being the case. So one could say that Kelowna is probably within Vanocuver's sphere, but Vernon probably isn't
I think thats the point with my examples in comparison to your definition of sphere-of-influence, is that often Med Hat, Fort Mac and S'toon are the only large centers & therefore the most convenient option within driving distance for the average individual that wants to shop at Costco or Home Depot etc or have a dental appointment or go somewhere to watch entertainment like shows, concerts, big screen movies etc etc. Therefore residence of places like Maple Creek, La Loche or Flin Flon generally leave their province to get the material social, economic or otherwise tangible things that they need, doesn't neccessarily 100% have to do with where the biggest industries in those areas head offices are located in relation to the average residence of that region. I think that's the whole concept of this thread.

A second way of looking at it is the, albeit flawed, NHL spheres of influence in the country presented earlier. The CFL spheres of influence map, if shown would show Rider Nation green dominating The Prairies and even influence across other parts of the country. NBA sphere of influence would show LA lakers domination much of Canada and large parts of the USA. LA and NYC would dominate N.America if a media/entertainment sphere of influence were presented. Just depends on spheres of influence you are talking about.

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  #87  
Old Posted Jan 21, 2017, 8:34 PM
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I thought I would give a cartographic representation of the spheres of influence of the regional CMAs on New Brunswick. Of course, there are many different ways of defining a sphere of influence (political, geographic, commercial, cultural etc), but if you exclude the political realm, I think this map is pretty accurate for NB.



In the northwest, Quebec City has considerable influence. Most Brayons have Quebecois ancestry rather than Acadian. There is also the obvious linguistic influence of Quebec City over Fredericton over the local population. Quebec City is also closer to the Madawaska area than Fredericton is. Given these factors (and QC's larger population), it's only natural that people from the region tend to pop over to Quebec for an urban getaway rather than Fredericton.

Also note that I included a chunk of Cumberland County of NS in the Moncton sphere of influence. In my experience, anything to the northwest of the Cobequid Pass tends to be neglected and ignored by Halifax. Given this, Moncton's status as a regional commercial centre and the proximity to Moncton tends to give Moncton elevated importance to the area, especially for residents from around Amherst and Springhill.
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  #88  
Old Posted Jan 21, 2017, 10:18 PM
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Originally Posted by The Macallan View Post
Got that. And based on my experience living in Kingston, which I admit is dated, I am expressing doubt about the strength of the Ottawa connection. It would have to have changed a lot since my time to be so Ottawa focused.

I also think a couple of posters are overestimating the popularity of the Sens, given their attendance woes but that's just an in passing remark.
Kingston is split Toronto-Ottawa, based on what subject area you're talking about. Montreal isn't really in the picture at all.

I'm not really into sports so I can't give much insight in this area, but from what I gather, the poor attendance for the Sens is mostly due to the extremely inconvenient location of the Sens arena, all the way at the western fringe of the city. Now that the team is planning to move its arena downtown that should change.
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  #89  
Old Posted Jan 21, 2017, 10:25 PM
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Originally Posted by MonctonRad View Post
I thought I would give a cartographic representation of the spheres of influence of the regional CMAs on New Brunswick. Of course, there are many different ways of defining a sphere of influence (political, geographic, commercial, cultural etc), but if you exclude the political realm, I think this map is pretty accurate for NB.



In the northwest, Quebec City has considerable influence. Most Brayons have Quebecois ancestry rather than Acadian. There is also the obvious linguistic influence of Quebec City over Fredericton over the local population. Quebec City is also closer to the Madawaska area than Fredericton is. Given these factors (and QC's larger population), it's only natural that people from the region tend to pop over to Quebec for an urban getaway rather than Fredericton.

Also note that I included a chunk of Cumberland County of NS in the Moncton sphere of influence. In my experience, anything to the northwest of the Cobequid Pass tends to be neglected and ignored by Halifax. Given this, Moncton's status as a regional commercial centre and the proximity to Moncton tends to give Moncton elevated importance to the area, especially for residents from around Amherst and Springhill.
It's strange where cities end up. Looking at NB, it seems Saint John, Miramichi, and Sackville should be the big three.
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  #90  
Old Posted Jan 21, 2017, 10:55 PM
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In southern Quebec, this is the exact spot (along the St. Lawrence corridor) where the Montreal sphere ends and Quebec City sphere begins (or the other way around, if you come from the other direction).

https://www.google.com/maps/@46.5519...8i6656!6m1!1e1

Left half of this view, "Quebec City area"; right half of this view, "Montreal area".


Left is city of Leclercville, right is city of Deschaillons
Left is county of Lotbinière, right is county of Bécancour
Left is region Chaudière-Appalaches (Lévis/Beauce) right is region Centre-du-Québec (Drummond/Victo)

Also, generally, on the left side you'll find JdQ and Le Soleil, on the right side you'll find JdM and La Presse.

I find it amusing that it's possible to point at such an exact location for the changeover of spheres of influence

The same point can be somewhat reliably found on Freeway 20 (the TCH) where you leave L'Érable county for Lotbinière county (or, in terms of municipalities, leaving Villeroy and entering Val-Alain).

They can be pinpointed due to them being borders for greater regions as well...
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  #91  
Old Posted Jan 21, 2017, 11:53 PM
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Also note that I included a chunk of Cumberland County of NS in the Moncton sphere of influence. In my experience, anything to the northwest of the Cobequid Pass tends to be neglected and ignored by Halifax. Given this, Moncton's status as a regional commercial centre and the proximity to Moncton tends to give Moncton elevated importance to the area, especially for residents from around Amherst and Springhill.
What does this actually mean? I guess this applies to the whole thread; "sphere of influence" is incredibly vague. Maybe it means commuting, maybe it means work trips or what place smaller branches report to, maybe it means shopping, where people are likely to migrate or have relatives, etc..?

Most of the publicly-run stuff like health care and education is provincial. A disproportionate number of private companies in the Maritimes are based in Halifax too, and the regional offices for national companies tend to be there. So if you're working in Amherst there's a higher chance you'll have some kind of work ties to Halifax than to Moncton.

For the general shopping and tourist type stuff it's possible people in towns like Amherst prefer to go to Moncton. Then again, Moncton is 1/3 the size and has a lot less in the way of shopping and entertainment options (particularly you consider only what an Amherst-sized town wouldn't have). Moncton is also very suburban; that is a plus for some people but not great for those who want more of a city experience. If the two cities were exactly the same it would make sense that people would go to whichever one is closest but they're not. I'm guessing a lot of people in Moncton do regular road trips to Halifax to visit things they don't have in their own town.

The most accurate way of looking at this, I think, is that there is a hierarchy of cities around the country. To some degree this is broken up by the independence of provinces and how far they are from each other, but within the context of the Maritimes, Halifax is the major city. Below that, Moncton, Saint John, Sydney, Fredericton, and Charlottetown are regional cities (with Fredericton and Charlottetown having a certain special status as capitals). Below them there are the major towns like Bathurst or Truro (many of which are shire towns for counties). At each level there are different functions; people don't drive 4 hours to Halifax to buy groceries. Then again, the wider Halifax commutershed of 1 hour has about 1/3 of all the people living in the Maritimes. Above Halifax there is Toronto.

Last edited by someone123; Jan 22, 2017 at 12:04 AM.
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  #92  
Old Posted Jan 22, 2017, 12:18 AM
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This seems vaguely relevant to the thread subject.

Why Cities Are Where They Are.
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  #93  
Old Posted Jan 22, 2017, 12:52 AM
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Originally Posted by lio45 View Post
In southern Quebec, this is the exact spot (along the St. Lawrence corridor) where the Montreal sphere ends and Quebec City sphere begins (or the other way around, if you come from the other direction).

https://www.google.com/maps/@46.5519...8i6656!6m1!1e1

Left half of this view, "Quebec City area"; right half of this view, "Montreal area".


Left is city of Leclercville, right is city of Deschaillons
Left is county of Lotbinière, right is county of Bécancour
Left is region Chaudière-Appalaches (Lévis/Beauce) right is region Centre-du-Québec (Drummond/Victo)

Also, generally, on the left side you'll find JdQ and Le Soleil, on the right side you'll find JdM and La Presse.

I find it amusing that it's possible to point at such an exact location for the changeover of spheres of influence

The same point can be somewhat reliably found on Freeway 20 (the TCH) where you leave L'Érable county for Lotbinière county (or, in terms of municipalities, leaving Villeroy and entering Val-Alain).

They can be pinpointed due to them being borders for greater regions as well...
Quebec does such a good job at defining its regions, regional county municipalities, cities, towns, etc. There always seems to be clear boundaries for so many things. I looked at the newspaper boxes in the places you mentioned and you are definitely correct.

In Northern Ontario, it drives me crazy because our districts make no sense today and some towns will be associated with and/or serviced by different cities or districts when they shouldn't be.

One example is Chapleau. The closest city is Timmins. But it's in Sudbury District. Emergency and social services are with Manitoulin-Sudbury District Services Board based in Espanola. The hospital is linked with Sudbury more than it is with Timmins and the Sudbury & District Health Unit services the town which is based in Sudbury. As for schools: English Public are with the Algoma board in Sault Ste Marie, English Catholic with Huron-Superior in the Sault, French Catholic with Nouvel-Ontario in Sudbury.

But quite a few businesses will be owned or have close ties with ones in Wawa which is in Algoma District. And of course many do with Timmins. But a few with be linked to Sudbury and a few with the Sault.

As for newspapers, the Timmins Daily Press is for sale and subscribed.

Now another weird thing is the Town of Hornepayne. It's in the very Northern part of Algoma District. It's English public and catholic schools are with the Algoma board in the Sault but French catholic is with Nouvel-Ontario in Sudbury. It is serviced by the Porcupine Health Unit based in Timmins. The hospital I'm not sure about but I think it's more associated with Sault Ste Marie. I once worked for a business that delivered goods from Timmins to Hornepayne. But I think more businesses from the Sault supply there. Driving distances to Timmins and the Sault are about the same but people tell me that the drive to Timmins is easier and faster due to flat terrain and less traffic.
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  #94  
Old Posted Jan 22, 2017, 1:12 AM
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One example is Chapleau. The closest city is Timmins. But it's in Sudbury District. Emergency and social services are with Manitoulin-Sudbury District Services Board based in Espanola. The hospital is linked with Sudbury more than it is with Timmins and the Sudbury & District Health Unit services the town which is based in Sudbury. As for schools: English Public are with the Algoma board in Sault Ste Marie, English Catholic with Huron-Superior in the Sault, French Catholic with Nouvel-Ontario in Sudbury.

But quite a few businesses will be owned or have close ties with ones in Wawa which is in Algoma District. And of course many do with Timmins. But a few with be linked to Sudbury and a few with the Sault.

As for newspapers, the Timmins Daily Press is for sale and subscribed.

Now another weird thing is the Town of Hornepayne. It's in the very Northern part of Algoma District. It's English public and catholic schools are with the Algoma board in the Sault but French catholic is with Nouvel-Ontario in Sudbury. It is serviced by the Porcupine Health Unit based in Timmins. The hospital I'm not sure about but I think it's more associated with Sault Ste Marie. I once worked for a business that delivered goods from Timmins to Hornepayne. But I think more businesses from the Sault supply there. Driving distances to Timmins and the Sault are about the same but people tell me that the drive to Timmins is easier and faster due to flat terrain and less traffic.
Fun fact: Sudbury district does not include the City of Sudbury. Wrap your head around that one.

The hospital in Hornepayne is associated with the Timmins and District Hospital, along with most of the hospitals in Cochrane and Timiskaming Districts.

The Sudbury and Algoma districts have the screwiest borders IMO.
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  #95  
Old Posted Jan 22, 2017, 1:37 AM
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Fun fact: Sudbury district does not include the City of Sudbury. Wrap your head around that one.

The hospital in Hornepayne is associated with the Timmins and District Hospital, along with most of the hospitals in Cochrane and Timiskaming Districts.

The Sudbury and Algoma districts have the screwiest borders IMO.
Yes, the City of Greater Sudbury (formerly Regional Municipality of Sudbury) was removed from the District of Sudbury. I think in the early 1970s?

So the Hornepayne hospital is associated with the TADH. It makes sense in terms of travel.

I know that the Sudbury District (and probably Algoma too) boundaries were drawn in relation the the railroads. There was no road access in the early days when the towns began so rail access was key to sphere of influence. Of course today the district boundaries are pointless and should be changed!
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  #96  
Old Posted Jan 22, 2017, 2:56 AM
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What does this actually mean? I guess this applies to the whole thread; "sphere of influence" is incredibly vague. Maybe it means commuting, maybe it means work trips or what place smaller branches report to, maybe it means shopping, where people are likely to migrate or have relatives, etc..?
I knew I would ruffle some Haligonian's feathers with my map.

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Most of the publicly-run stuff like health care and education is provincial. A disproportionate number of private companies in the Maritimes are based in Halifax too, and the regional offices for national companies tend to be there. So if you're working in Amherst there's a higher chance you'll have some kind of work ties to Halifax than to Moncton.
While there is a provincial bias in the provision of health care, I can guarantee you that many Cumberland County residents choose to have their brain surgery, cancer treatments and advanced diagnostic imaging studies in Moncton than in Halifax. The reason? - the quality is just as good as in Halifax and proximity and convenience can count for a lot, especially for loved ones making hospital visits, or for frequent appointments for follow-up care. The Maritime provinces are very good at paying the out of province medical expenses in their sister provinces, so this is not an issue. I suspect that the "trade balance" in health care between NB & NS is pretty much a wash. There are not many NBers that actually go to Halifax for advanced care as we are pretty much self sufficient as a province in terms of health care resources. This would balance the Cumberland County residents who seek health care in Moncton (Cumberland County having only a fraction of the total NS population). As far as work ties to Halifax, Amherst & Springhill are nothing more than small shire towns, and there wouldn't be too many local branch offices in those towns for companies based out of Halifax. As I said, anything north of the Cobequid Pass tends to be ignored by greater Haligon. Moncton as a commercial city is at least as important to Amherst as Halifax is.

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For the general shopping and tourist type stuff it's possible people in towns like Amherst prefer to go to Moncton. Then again, Moncton is 1/3 the size and has a lot less in the way of shopping and entertainment options (particularly you consider only what an Amherst-sized town wouldn't have). Moncton is also very suburban; that is a plus for some people but not great for those who want more of a city experience. If the two cities were exactly the same it would make sense that people would go to whichever one is closest but they're not. I'm guessing a lot of people in Moncton do regular road trips to Halifax to visit things they don't have in their own town.
I don't disagree with these comments, but I would point out that a person in Amherst will likely be able to find the things he wants to buy 75% of the time in his own town, 95% of the time in Moncton and 98% of the time in Halifax (the rest he will buy on line). What this generally means is that he might take the 45 minute drive into Moncton once every 3-4 weeks to go to Costco or Home Depot to get things done, but might only do the two hour drive down to Halifax 3-4 times a year to get the most specialized stuff. Being a little smaller than Halifax can also work in Moncton's favour for small town shoppers as the city is easier (and less nerve wracking) to navigate.

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The most accurate way of looking at this, I think, is that there is a hierarchy of cities around the country. To some degree this is broken up by the independence of provinces and how far they are from each other, but within the context of the Maritimes, Halifax is the major city. Below that, Moncton, Saint John, Sydney, Fredericton, and Charlottetown are regional cities (with Fredericton and Charlottetown having a certain special status as capitals). Below them there are the major towns like Bathurst or Truro (many of which are shire towns for counties). At each level there are different functions; people don't drive 4 hours to Halifax to buy groceries. Then again, the wider Halifax commutershed of 1 hour has about 1/3 of all the people living in the Maritimes. Above Halifax there is Toronto.
I agree absolutely with this analysis. I would humbly suggest that while Halifax's influence in NS is overwhelming (although a little muted in Cumberland County and in Cape Breton), once you get beyond southeastern NB you don't see too many Maritimers making spur of the moment trips to the "big city". If somebody from the Miramichi decides to visit Halifax, it's a big trip, usually occurring on the weekend , and entails a couple of nights in a hotel. They might do this once or twice a year. This level of contact is pretty minimal and really puts a pretty narrow veneer on any claims of being within a sphere of influence........

As for Fredericton having a "special status" conveyed upon it as a capital in terms of it's "sphere of influence", I think this only applies in the political realm, or if you are a civil servant. I have lived in Moncton now for 28 years, and I can honestly state that I can count on the number of fingers on one hand how many times I have had to travel to Fredericton purely because of it's status as a capital city. The fact that Halifax and Charlottetown are so dominant in their own spheres of influence has more to do with the fact that they are also the largest cities (by far) in their respective provinces..........
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  #97  
Old Posted Jan 22, 2017, 4:05 AM
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FWIW, here's my "sphere of influence" map for the remainder of the Maritimes:



I would be interested in seeing other similar maps for other regions of the country.
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  #98  
Old Posted Jan 22, 2017, 4:21 AM
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FWIW, here's my "sphere of influence" map for the remainder of the Maritimes:



I would be interested in seeing other similar maps for other regions of the country.
I think you're right about Moncton's influence spilling over into that part of Nova Scotia.
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Old Posted Jan 22, 2017, 4:51 AM
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Kingston is split Toronto-Ottawa, based on what subject area you're talking about. Montreal isn't really in the picture at all.

I'm not really into sports so I can't give much insight in this area, but from what I gather, the poor attendance for the Sens is mostly due to the extremely inconvenient location of the Sens arena, all the way at the western fringe of the city. Now that the team is planning to move its arena downtown that should change.
I don't want to divert this thread into a discussion of Ottawa Senators attendance but colour me unconvinced. Leafs and Habs fans have no trouble getting to the rink when their teams play in Ottawa. The game last week often sounded like a Leafs home game.

Here is a table of NHL attendance figures. http://www.espn.com/nhl/attendance

The column to look at is Home percentage attendance. For a Canadian team, 84 % is pretty bad. It's 12% lower than Calgary, the next lowest Canadian city. But hey, it whips Carolina! Actually, I am sure a downtown rink would indeed help the Sens but to be honest, they need a lot of help in this area.
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Old Posted Jan 22, 2017, 4:53 AM
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In southern Quebec, this is the exact spot (along the St. Lawrence corridor) where the Montreal sphere ends and Quebec City sphere begins (or the other way around, if you come from the other direction).

https://www.google.com/maps/@46.5519...8i6656!6m1!1e1

Left half of this view, "Quebec City area"; right half of this view, "Montreal area".


Left is city of Leclercville, right is city of Deschaillons
Left is county of Lotbinière, right is county of Bécancour
Left is region Chaudière-Appalaches (Lévis/Beauce) right is region Centre-du-Québec (Drummond/Victo)

Also, generally, on the left side you'll find JdQ and Le Soleil, on the right side you'll find JdM and La Presse.

I find it amusing that it's possible to point at such an exact location for the changeover of spheres of influence

The same point can be somewhat reliably found on Freeway 20 (the TCH) where you leave L'Érable county for Lotbinière county (or, in terms of municipalities, leaving Villeroy and entering Val-Alain).

They can be pinpointed due to them being borders for greater regions as well...
Same here:

https://www.google.ca/maps/place/QC-...!4d-74.5865563

To the left, Gatineau(-Ottawa) influence dominates, and to the right it's Montreal.

Grenville is across from Hawkesbury and so has a connection to Ontario, and this turns its gaze more towards Ottawa and Gatineau. But as soon as you go east from this intersection, instantaneously the LeDroit (our local paper)'s boxes vanish from the side of the road and LaPresse (Mtl) boxes appear.

Just 10 minutes away, Lachute is firmly in the orbit of Montreal.
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