Questions about Ottawa

[phil235]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

If the goal of an anglophone is rise to management, there is a barrier. As I pointed out in the previous post, this applies to professional and technical jobs as well.

There is a perception (rightly or wrongly) amongst the Anglophone Ottawa community that the public service is full of barriers. I have also observed that the culture is totally different than the private sector. Then add the recent Phoenix fiasco.

That is true about management positions, although you can go quite high in the professional and technical fields without ever hitting that issue, given the preponderance of specialist positions.

At least in my experience, there are lots of second-language learning opportunities for those who want to progress to management, managers can access additional intensive training. Some groups may be different, but in the two professional groups I've been a part of, the top-level managers began as unilingual anglophones and have progressed without issue.

Culture depends on the organization. I think you would find that many of the Crowns and agencies have cultures that are more like the private sector than they are like the core public service.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by phil235

That is true about management positions, although you can go quite high in the professional and technical fields without ever hitting that issue, given the preponderance of specialist positions.

At least in my experience, there are lots of second-language learning opportunities for those who want to progress to management, managers can access additional intensive training. Some groups may be different, but in the two professional groups I've been a part of, the top-level managers began as unilingual anglophones and have progressed without issue.

Culture depends on the organization. I think you would find that many of the Crowns and agencies have cultures that are more like the private sector than they are like the core public service.

Although I'm sure there are others, I only knew one person who was unable to meet the language requirement of a management position in Ottawa, and that was due to a learning disability. That person was assigned to the position in any event.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by Acajack

That's assuming that it's impossible for the unilingual anglophones that are in that 83% (there are also unilingual francophones in there) to learn French. Which would be an incorrect assumption.

Non-imperative staffing is increasingly rare.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

I agree. The one impact I see of bilingualism is less diversity (geographically and ethnically) as the Ottawa-Montreal corridor seems to dominate.

In terms of ethnic diversity, the Ottawa-Montreal corridor is probably fairly "average" for Canada. Some parts of Canada are hyper-diverse, but a huge chunk of Canada isn't really that diverse.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by acottawa

Non-imperative staffing is increasingly rare.

What do you mean by non-imperative staffing?

[khabibulin]

Originally Posted by Acajack

What do you mean by non-imperative staffing?

Bilingual non-imperative is when a bilingual position is open to unilingual candidates on the understanding that they will be offered language training and will become bilingual within a certain amount of time. Bilingual imperative means that only bilingual candidates will be considered for the position

[Marshsparrow]

We've now probably turned off the original poster about the positive attributes of living in Ottawa... it really is a great city!

[phil235]

Originally Posted by acottawa

Non-imperative staffing is increasingly rare.

Depends on the organization.

In any event, the point is that it would be silly for the poster to rule out the public service, as there are thousands of jobs available to anglophones, and thousands more available to anglophones who make an effort to get their French to a decent level. There is lots of opportunity here at the moment, and it only looks to get better in the coming years.

[Jamaican-Phoenix]

Anybody looking to hire an almost-30-year old for a full-time position?

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by phil235

"Most jobs"? Half of the public service is located outside of Ottawa, and the vast majority of those jobs are not bilingual. In my organization in Ottawa ( a Crown corp), a good 40-50% of the jobs, including a majority of the professional and technical jobs, are not bilingual. And for those that are bilingual, a majority are at a B level, which is attainable for most anglophones (particularly given that training will be included any time there are recruitment issues). Bilingualism is a job skill that can be acquired just like any other.

This idea that anglophones are excluded from most jobs is not factual.

I can't find exact numbers, but I don't think your experience with crown corporations is reflective of how the core public service operates in the national capital region.

[Acajack]

In Canada about 55 pc of federal PS jobs are English only and about 40 pc are bilingual. Only 5 pc are French only.

In the capital region the first two numbers are reversed.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by Acajack

In terms of ethnic diversity, the Ottawa-Montreal corridor is probably fairly "average" for Canada. Some parts of Canada are hyper-diverse, but a huge chunk of Canada isn't really that diverse.

Yeah you are probably right on average ethnic diversity levels in the two cities. The public service doesn't seem to attract them though. Ottawa's Arab and Somali population are woefully under-represented. Language may or may not have anything to do with this.

In terms of geographic diversity someone else said their team has people from all over Canada. In my experience the bulk of the public service is from Ottawa/Montreal. The vast majority of admin assistants are from Gatineau or are Franc-Ontarians. Sure some of the more elite departments recruit from across Canada but more and more they are requiring French in advance. I meet more people from Manitoba than BC for example. (maybe nothing to do with language BC is just nicer than Manitoba and therefore encourages more people to stay)

[J_Murphy]

Originally Posted by Marshsparrow

We've now probably turned off the original poster about the positive attributes of living in Ottawa... it really is a great city!

LOL...not at all. I'm enjoying following the discussion

[Marshsparrow]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

In terms of geographic diversity someone else said their team has people from all over Canada. In my experience the bulk of the public service is from Ottawa/Montreal. The vast majority of admin assistants are from Gatineau or are Franc-Ontarians. Sure some of the more elite departments recruit from across Canada but more and more they are requiring French in advance. I meet more people from Manitoba than BC for example. (maybe nothing to do with language BC is just nicer than Manitoba and therefore encourages more people to stay)

Again what do you consider "from Ottawa" - I was born in SW Ontario, came here for university and stayed due to employment in the federal government - I don't consider myself "from Ottawa" - but I now consider it my home. Again, hard pressed to find people that were actually born, grew up and stayed in Ottawa - the majority seem to be from other parts.

[phil235]

Originally Posted by Acajack

In Canada about 55 pc of federal PS jobs are English only and about 40 pc are bilingual. Only 5 pc are French only.

In the capital region the first two numbers are reversed.

That's pretty much consistent with what I've seen in the crowns/agencies I've worked in. And they make up a good chunk of the public service in this town.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

Yeah you are probably right on average ethnic diversity levels in the two cities. The public service doesn't seem to attract them though. Ottawa's Arab and Somali population are woefully under-represented. Language may or may not have anything to do with this.

Based on what I know I wouldn't say that about the capital region's Lebanese community. There are quite a few of them in the federal government among my friends, neighbours and acquaintances. I think you're probably right about the Somali community though.

In terms of knowing English and French, there is a very high degree of bilingualism and even trilingualism among the Lebanese community in the region. Many or even most Lebanese families have a long-standing history with French that goes back to the old country and this has been somewhat maintained here, and of course they also learn English from living in Ottawa.

Even the Somali community has a decent level of English-French bilingualism within it. A lot of people identified as "Somalis" in Ottawa are actually from Djibouti which is a former French colony that still teaches and uses that language. Also, for some reason even a lot of the people from Somalia itself send their kids to French schools in Ottawa. (As do a fair number of recently-arrived Syrian refugees, so it seems.) French (public, not Catholic) schools in Ottawa have many, many Somali students, especially in the south and west ends.

[Vixx]

Bilingualism in the public service has been a long standing, contentious issue for a long time and it will continue to be.

If your aim is to get into a high level management position (or some specialized position that takes many years to get) you'll eventually run into a glass ceiling where your career is limited with zero French. That's just the way it works.

I've heard of certain positions being filled where a candidate, while technically less "qualified" then the unilingual anglophone, will still get it because of their bilingualism. I'm a strong advocate for "best candidate possible for the job" but I recognize this is technically a bilingual country and that the feds must try their best to not alienate French speaking Canadians. However, fact is the majority of positions require very little French, and that by far and away the vast majority of people in Canada speak zero French. I think the current policy and system in place for bilingualism with the feds is faulty.

I've only just recently got my foot in the door with the feds (which in and of itself was a pain in the ass) and realized that realistically if I'd like to move up and do so quickly, I gotta learn at least some French. I won't wait around for paid training classes because they are designed for you to barely pass the French tests but not actually be able to hold a conversation in French. I personally think that the bilingual requirements for certain positions are over the top and unnecessary. But if one is serious about getting to a high level position one day, you gotta bite the bullet and take some initiative to learn some French. It's one of the tradeoffs of having a stable job with relatively good pay (very subjective) and good working hours.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by Vixx

Bilingualism in the public service has been a long standing, contentious issue for a long time and it will continue to be.

If your aim is to get into a high level management position (or some specialized position that takes many years to get) you'll eventually run into a glass ceiling where your career is limited with zero French. That's just the way it works.

I've heard of certain positions being filled where a candidate, while technically less "qualified" then the unilingual anglophone, will still get it because of their bilingualism. I'm a strong advocate for "best candidate possible for the job" but I recognize this is technically a bilingual country and that the feds must try their best to not alienate French speaking Canadians. However, fact is the majority of positions require very little French, and that by far and away the vast majority of people in Canada speak zero French. I think the current policy and system in place for bilingualism with the feds is faulty.

I've only just recently got my foot in the door with the feds (which in and of itself was a pain in the ass) and realized that realistically if I'd like to move up and do so quickly, I gotta learn at least some French. I won't wait around for paid training classes because they are designed for you to barely pass the French tests but not actually be able to hold a conversation in French. I personally think that the bilingual requirements for certain positions are over the top and unnecessary. But if one is serious about getting to a high level position one day, you gotta bite the bullet and take some initiative to learn some French. It's one of the tradeoffs of having a stable job with relatively good pay (very subjective) and good working hours.

In reality, most people with a career and family do not have the time or the financial resources for this kind of private training especially if it is on top of specialized training already needed to maintain a career in a specific field. This is why a good portion of these jobs fall to the minority of people who were fortunate enough to become fluently bilingual in childhood.

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by Vixx

Bilingualism in the public service has been a long standing, contentious issue for a long time and it will continue to be.

If your aim is to get into a high level management position (or some specialized position that takes many years to get) you'll eventually run into a glass ceiling where your career is limited with zero French. That's just the way it works.

I've heard of certain positions being filled where a candidate, while technically less "qualified" then the unilingual anglophone, will still get it because of their bilingualism. I'm a strong advocate for "best candidate possible for the job" but I recognize this is technically a bilingual country and that the feds must try their best to not alienate French speaking Canadians. However, fact is the majority of positions require very little French, and that by far and away the vast majority of people in Canada speak zero French. I think the current policy and system in place for bilingualism with the feds is faulty.

I've only just recently got my foot in the door with the feds (which in and of itself was a pain in the ass) and realized that realistically if I'd like to move up and do so quickly, I gotta learn at least some French. I won't wait around for paid training classes because they are designed for you to barely pass the French tests but not actually be able to hold a conversation in French. I personally think that the bilingual requirements for certain positions are over the top and unnecessary. But if one is serious about getting to a high level position one day, you gotta bite the bullet and take some initiative to learn some French. It's one of the tradeoffs of having a stable job with relatively good pay (very subjective) and good working hours.

This is what I was getting at with my comment earlier about how bilingual requirements reduce the efficiency and quality of the federal bureaucracy.

If you have two applicants for a manager position, one of whom would make a great manager but is a unilingual anglo, and the other of whom would make a mediocre manager (good enough to be hired, but not great) but is bilingual.. they end up giving the latter person the job.

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

In reality, most people with a career and family do not have the time or the financial resources for this kind of private training especially if it is on top of specialized training already needed to maintain a career in a specific field. This is why a good portion of these jobs fall to the minority of people who were fortunate enough to become fluently bilingual in childhood.

Who are very disproportionately upper middle class kids, thus perpetuating class divides.