Questions about Ottawa

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

Who are very disproportionately upper middle class kids, thus perpetuating class divides.

Well, very disproportionately Anglos from Quebec or francophones.

[phil235]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

This is why a good portion of these jobs fall to the minority of people who were fortunate enough to become fluently bilingual in childhood.

Yeah, except that "fluently bilingual" is not the test for any government job.

People complaining about the requirement almost universally fail to understand that distinction. Anyone who took grade 9 French was at a level that qualifies them for most jobs. If you went to grade 12, you qualify for every job. "Fortunate" is not the word I would use to describe people who had the foresight to take advantage of the public education system.

[Proof Sheet]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

If you have two applicants for a manager position, one of whom would make a great manager but is a unilingual anglo, and the other of whom would make a mediocre manager (good enough to be hired, but not great) but is bilingual.. they end up giving the latter person the job.

It is a workplace culture like this that you have described that makes me glad I'm self employed and definitely not a federal civil servant.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

This is what I was getting at with my comment earlier about how bilingual requirements reduce the efficiency and quality of the federal bureaucracy.

If you have two applicants for a manager position, one of whom would make a great manager but is a unilingual anglo, and the other of whom would make a mediocre manager (good enough to be hired, but not great) but is bilingual.. they end up giving the latter person the job.

Under this scenario, though, both would be "qualified". And the bilingual one would be more qualified - being bilingual.

And you don't know who would be a good manager before they're actually in the job.

There is no scenario where essential qualifications for a job are A, B, C, D and E, and that a bilingual candidate who only has A, B and C gets hired over a bilingual one who has all five qualifications.

In a scenario where you only have one person with ABCDE + English only, and another who is bilingual but who is missing some of the qualifications, you either go back to the drawing board... or you change the position description to dumb down the language requirement so you can hire the unilingual anglo.

At least that is my understanding of how these things work.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

Who are very disproportionately upper middle class kids, thus perpetuating class divides.

The federal public service already favours the upper middle class even before the language question enters into it, as it requires post-secondary for most any position these days, and university for most anything above a secretarial or mail clerk job.

Also, it's not only the upper middle class that is bilingual - where you grew up enters into it and people who are from places like Aylmer, Orleans, Vanier, etc. are often likely to be bilingual by "meiosis" and don't necessarily have to be from affluent families to have acquired these skills.

Finally, as phil235 alluded to, all you had to do was pay attention in French class during all your years of free public schooling.

The vast majority of bilingual Canadians did not learn the other official language during their post-secondary studies.

[AuxTown]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

This is what I was getting at with my comment earlier about how bilingual requirements reduce the efficiency and quality of the federal bureaucracy.

If you have two applicants for a manager position, one of whom would make a great manager but is a unilingual anglo, and the other of whom would make a mediocre manager (good enough to be hired, but not great) but is bilingual.. they end up giving the latter person the job.

Unfortunately, as this pattern continues, many federal departments and the entire administration at uOttawa will always suffer from a lack of talent and will forever lag behind the private sector and other non-bilingual universities respectively. I understand the principle, but the current execution will always favour a less-skilled bilingual candidate over a more-skilled unilingual one.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by O-Town Hockey

Unfortunately, as this pattern continues, many federal departments and the entire administration at uOttawa will always suffer from a lack of talent and will forever lag behind the private sector and other non-bilingual universities respectively. I understand the principle, but the current execution will always favour a less-skilled bilingual candidate over a more-skilled unilingual one.

I have never seen evidence of this. In fact, in my public service experience, bilingual employees were MORE effective/efficient than unilingual employees, thanks to their bilingualism. Easy example - they were much faster at absorbing and applying information in both official languages, without requiring resources and time for translation.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

I have never seen evidence of this. In fact, in my public service experience, bilingual employees were MORE effective/efficient than unilingual employees, thanks to their bilingualism. Easy example - they were much faster at absorbing and applying information in both official languages, without requiring resources and time for translation.

Just thinking out loud but it seems to me that for example, having to translate a submission for an environmental assessment from somewhere in Quebec into English isn't particularly efficient when that step (or likely steps) could be avoided simply by having a professional who can read French.

Or translating French media questions from Radio-Canada or Le Devoir into English, then having to translate English responses back into French to send to the media person.

[McC]

Originally Posted by Acajack

are often likely to be bilingual by "meiosis"

cells dividing into 4?
I think you mean "osmosis"

[McC]

It's pretty rich to simultaneously hold the ideas that becoming (or maintaining) EN-FR bilingual is too hard, and yet bilingual people are less qualified/competent.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by McC

It's pretty rich to simultaneously hold the ideas that becoming (or maintaining) EN-FR bilingual is too hard, and yet bilingual people are less qualified/competent.

If only the energy directed at opposing official bilingualism could be channeled into learning the languages to the basic standard required in some public service positions! It really ain't that difficult - if I could do it in Kitchener, anybody can do it anywhere in Canada.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by McC

cells dividing into 4?
I think you mean "osmosis"

Yes... shit. I guess it was too early!

[YOWflier]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Under this scenario, though, both would be "qualified". And the bilingual one would be more qualified - being bilingual.

And you don't know who would be a good manager before they're actually in the job.

There is no scenario where essential qualifications for a job are A, B, C, D and E, and that a bilingual candidate who only has A, B and C gets hired over a bilingual one who has all five qualifications.

In a scenario where you only have one person with ABCDE + English only, and another who is bilingual but who is missing some of the qualifications, you either go back to the drawing board... or you change the position description to dumb down the language requirement so you can hire the unilingual anglo.

At least that is my understanding of how these things work.

Not true. The pedigree of a candidate can and should be ascertained from work experience, achievements/ rewards/ recognitions, references, and behavioral assessment. In the public service one's performance record should be captured in the performance management system. It should also be noted that most management jobs require "recent and relevant" management experience, often obtained via acting roles.

In summary, only a very foolish organization would hire an unknown entity into a management role (or any role for that matter).

[phil235]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

If only the energy directed at opposing official bilingualism could be channeled into learning the languages to the basic standard required in some public service positions! It really ain't that difficult - if I could do it in Kitchener, anybody can do it anywhere in Canada.

Just in case anyone suggests you are the exception that proves some kind of rule, I also learned my French in Kitchener - and it wasn't by meiosis (quite like that word). Just took all the available high school French classes.

My wife did the same thing in Toronto, and she went a good 15 years without using it, before working to get it back up to the level needed. As I said, it's a job skill like any other. And not just in the public service.

[phil235]

Originally Posted by McC

It's pretty rich to simultaneously hold the ideas that becoming (or maintaining) EN-FR bilingual is too hard, and yet bilingual people are less qualified/competent.

Agree 100%.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by ac888yow

Not true. The pedigree of a candidate can and should be ascertained from work experience, achievements/ rewards/ recognitions, references, and behavioral assessment. In the public service one's performance record should be captured in the performance management system. It should also be noted that most management jobs require "recent and relevant" management experience, often obtained via acting roles.

In summary, only a very foolish organization would hire an unknown entity into a management role (or any role for that matter).

I didn't phrase that ideally, but the reality is still that you wouldn't get even close to the point of considering hiring a person whose track record shows him or her to be a "bad manager", regardless of dual language proficiency.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by phil235

Just in case anyone suggests you are the exception that proves some kind of rule, I also learned my French in Kitchener - and it wasn't by meiosis (quite like that word). .

I regretfully plead guilty to having inserted it into the discussion space.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by phil235

Yeah, except that "fluently bilingual" is not the test for any government job.

People complaining about the requirement almost universally fail to understand that distinction. Anyone who took grade 9 French was at a level that qualifies them for most jobs. If you went to grade 12, you qualify for every job. "Fortunate" is not the word I would use to describe people who had the foresight to take advantage of the public education system.

Not many people with only high school French can get their levels. Even for those who can, how many Anglos do French for every year of high school? People are trying to get their qualifications for university. A lot of university programs require multiple prerequisites.

[Acajack]

As usual, not many tears in this debate for the 15-17% of Canadians who are unilingual francophones (it's probably even a bit higher if the standard is being good enough in English in order to work in that language) who have less than 5% of the country's federal public service jobs available to them.

Unless, of course, they make an effort to learn English.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by acottawa

Not many people with only high school French can get their levels. Even for those who can, how many Anglos do French for every year of high school? People are trying to get their qualifications for university. A lot of university programs require multiple prerequisites.

That's why the federal government offers free, paid language training during work hours.

Not a bad deal.