'Everybody Fits In': Inside The Canadian Cities Where Minorities Are The Majority

[tablemtn]

Institutions and politics and day to day interactions become less about race.

That's... a bit of a fantasy. There are plenty of places where people share a common language and culture, but racial divisions are still quite prominent. Guyana, Suriname, Trinidad, etc. are good examples of this. There is certainly mixing, but as they say, different groups "know their own." Trying to erase that is probably a quixotic quest that goes against fundamental human psychology, in any case.

[GlassCity]

Originally Posted by tablemtn

Why would people with their own unitary cultures and civilizations want to live in a random jumble of other people, as opposed to living in something approximating their own pre-existing communities? That usually only happens if there are so few of them that they cannot sustain a self-supporting community. But once you have a sufficient number of your co-ethnics around, then of course, you would generally want to re-create your own culture and folkways and so on.

I don't blame new immigrants for choosing to settle the way they do. If my immigrant group was large enough to have ethnic neighbourhoods, I'm sure my parents would have settled in such a neighbourhood too. It's very logical and I don't think there's anything wrong with wanting such circumstances. Moving countries is not easy.

What I do think is that in the grand scheme of things, the existence of these neighbourhoods is bad for cities and their people, and that while there is little we can do to discourage it, we at least shouldn't be encouraging it. For example, the original post's article mentions the issue of signage dominant in other languages. This should not be allowed. Make it so that when immigrants begin to move into a neighbourhood en masse, locals don't feel the need to vacate it.

[llamaorama]

Originally Posted by dc_denizen

Isn’t this the Canadian way? Multiculturalism vs melting pot?

Well, the actual Canadian way looking at history is to be almost entirely 100% white after totally crushing the natives, and to nearly succumb to tensions like Anglophone vs. Francophone

But it was a country founded entirely on "easy mode"

Brazil went through so much more shit, was way overdue in getting rid of slavery, and is beyond troubled with extreme inequality, busted government, and some of the world's highest crime rates. Yet despite a little bit of snobbery surrounding german ancestry vs. mixed citizens I understand they aren't nearly as shitty about race down there.

[GlassCity]

Originally Posted by BrownTown

Yes, but many of their cultures are less advanced and shouldn't be tolerated in a highly advanced country. This absurd idea that cultures are equal needs to die. If people don't want to integrate and want to keep their backwards culture then fine, they can live in whatever shithole country they came from. People who wish to maintain honor cultures like many blacks and Muslims shouldn't be tolerated in a more advanced dignity culture as honor cultures breed violence. People who wish to live in a theocratic culture like many Muslims shouldn't be tolerated in a liberal democracy that values science and reason over dogma. Send all the people from advanced cultures who are willing to integrate that you want, but keep the less advanced ones out and stop trying to pretend that there's no difference between the two.

I agree that it's naive to think that all cultures are equal, but that's not really an issue we deal with in ethnoburbs in Canada at least. My concern is more so about new immigrants having little interest in participating in the culture they've moved into. The rise of a regressive theocratic culture is not at all a problem I've witnessed with immigrants, or anyone for that matter, in Canada.

[GlassCity]

Originally Posted by llamaorama

Because someone else used to live there and now they get displaced. Maybe someone is at a disadvantage in business or finding a job. Maybe they all vote for a certain political party. They have different values which actually affect you in a negative way(social conservatism, distrust, less generous, etc). Conflict is inevitable.

Countries where there is inequality and politics divided along racial lines like Malaysia are all fucked up and shouldn't be emulated.

If everyone is a minority and there is integration then nobody is a minority. Institutions and politics and day to day interactions become less about race. You get one dominant lingua franca to destroy the language barrier. A new civic culture rises. Homogenous cultures are often higher-trust and so much more hospitable to actually live in, but of course such a thing would be repugnant and illiberal if it had to be actively enforced. But in an integrated multicultural society you get the same benefit with no harm done.

I agree with this. I don't really buy into the whole "more diverse=better" argument. I just see no factual basis in it. So in a multicultural society, what I would prefer is for these multiple cultures to consistently interact and over time have their differences dissolve. Let people just be people. This can't happen if everyone splits themselves off into their own areas of the city.

[GlassCity]

Originally Posted by dc_denizen

Isn’t this the Canadian way? Multiculturalism vs melting pot?

Kind of? The article says "Canada’s official policy of multiculturalism, enacted in the 1970s under the then prime minister, Pierre Trudeau. It states that other cultures are valuable as long as newcomers are willing to integrate into “mainstream” Canadian culture – typically understood as the country’s English and French colonial roots." So I don't know if multiculturalism under this definition would approve of everyone splitting themselves off. If it does, then I don't agree with it. I agree with multiculturalism as described in that quote.

[lio45]

That quote does not seem to describe the current version of multiculturalism at all. The (obviously dated) quote mentions integration; conversely, ghettoization is a core element of the current version of the idea.

Nowadays, "newcomers willing to integrate into the mainstream culture" is the definition of "melting pot", not of "multiculturalism".

[GlassCity]

Originally Posted by lio45

That quote does not seem to describe the current version of multiculturalism at all. The (obviously dated) quote mentions integration; conversely, ghettoization is a core element of the current version of the idea.

I was similarly surprised when I read it myself. Part of me wonders if it's a grass is greener thing, because it seems in the American left-wing movement the melting pot is considered a bad thing.

In fairness, I'm just going through the Multiculturalism Act now and there's nothing in it about integration. The main text goes as follows. I've bolded the only parts that seem to hint at Canadian customs in any way.

3 (1) It is hereby declared to be the policy of the Government of Canada to

(a) recognize and promote the understanding that multiculturalism reflects the cultural and racial diversity of Canadian society and acknowledges the freedom of all members of Canadian society to preserve, enhance and share their cultural heritage;

(b) recognize and promote the understanding that multiculturalism is a fundamental characteristic of the Canadian heritage and identity and that it provides an invaluable resource in the shaping of Canada’s future;

(c) promote the full and equitable participation of individuals and communities of all origins in the continuing evolution and shaping of all aspects of Canadian society and assist them in the elimination of any barrier to that participation;

(d) recognize the existence of communities whose members share a common origin and their historic contribution to Canadian society, and enhance their development;

(e) ensure that all individuals receive equal treatment and equal protection under the law, while respecting and valuing their diversity;

(f) encourage and assist the social, cultural, economic and political institutions of Canada to be both respectful and inclusive of Canada’s multicultural character;

(g) promote the understanding and creativity that arise from the interaction between individuals and communities of different origins;

(h) foster the recognition and appreciation of the diverse cultures of Canadian society and promote the reflection and the evolving expressions of those cultures;

(i) preserve and enhance the use of languages other than English and French, while strengthening the status and use of the official languages of Canada; and

(j) advance multiculturalism throughout Canada in harmony with the national commitment to the official languages of Canada.

Federal institutions

(2) It is further declared to be the policy of the Government of Canada that all federal institutions shall

(a) ensure that Canadians of all origins have an equal opportunity to obtain employment and advancement in those institutions;

(b) promote policies, programs and practices that enhance the ability of individuals and communities of all origins to contribute to the continuing evolution of Canada;

(c) promote policies, programs and practices that enhance the understanding of and respect for the diversity of the members of Canadian society;

(d) collect statistical data in order to enable the development of policies, programs and practices that are sensitive and responsive to the multicultural reality of Canada;

(e) make use, as appropriate, of the language skills and cultural understanding of individuals of all origins; and

(f) generally, carry on their activities in a manner that is sensitive and responsive to the multicultural reality of Canada.

http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/a...1.html#docCont

[jtown,man]

Originally Posted by tablemtn

"Integration" seems like kind of a bizarre and unrealistic thing to hope for. You're generally talking about population groups with histories reaching back into antiquity. Why would they abandon all of that just because they now live in Canada? They already have a culture.

If I were to move to a new country, the least I would do is learn their language. Hell, I try to brush up on my language skills if I just *visit* a place.

Its not a choice of KILL OFF YOUR TRADITIONS

or

Become a white protestant or something.

People naturally become apart of and also shape the culture. I think hispanics in Texas show this is happening. Hispanic Texans, at least non new arrivals, are as Texas as the stereotypical white cowboy. It just naturally happened. They might or might not speak Spanish. But I know they probably like rural life and drive a truck.

[Urbanguy]

Originally Posted by MonkeyRonin

Except half those Latinos are white.

While you're correct that the Canadian census does deem Latino as "non-white", it's a question of racial identity rather than ethnicity. The US collects data on whether each person does or does not have Latin American origins, in addition to their racial identity. Canada only asks for the latter, meaning that a white person from Latin America would probably just check off "white" on the census. The categorization is different, but so is the way the data is being collected.

The one big difference is that Middle Eastern & Arab are considered white in the US but not in Canada - but then neither represent significant populations in either country. And again, in Canada a lot of those people are likely to just mark down "white" on the census anyway.

Keep in mind that Indigenous people are also not considered "visible minorities" in Canada (they're their own category).

Maybe percentage-wise because the US is massive in population but I wouldn't consider the nearly 1.3 million Arabs in the US insignificant nor the over 1 million West Asians/non-Arab/Magreb Middle Easterners either.

In some ways there's almost no comparison with the US as each of the two largest minority groups are larger than the entire population of Canada while the Asian population at over 17.5 million would rank #67 in the world if they formed their own country.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by GlassCity

I don't blame new immigrants for choosing to settle the way they do. If my immigrant group was large enough to have ethnic neighbourhoods, I'm sure my parents would have settled in such a neighbourhood too. It's very logical and I don't think there's anything wrong with wanting such circumstances. Moving countries is not easy.

What I do think is that in the grand scheme of things, the existence of these neighbourhoods is bad for cities and their people, and that while there is little we can do to discourage it, we at least shouldn't be encouraging it. For example, the original post's article mentions the issue of signage dominant in other languages. This should not be allowed. Make it so that when immigrants begin to move into a neighbourhood en masse, locals don't feel the need to vacate it.

My neighbourhood feels like it is headed in this direction.

I'm neither pro- nor anti-immigration. I view it as a "policy lever" that governments have, a way to accomplish various goals like promoting economic growth, tweaking demographics, improving cultural exchange with other countries, or achieving humanitarian aims.

The process that is happening in my particular neighbourhood seems negative on balance. A lot of people barely speak English or refuse to, even if you try to talk to them, and are generally just not friendly. We have some problems with people not following local practices, e.g. spitting on the floor in public areas of our building. I think the diversity of businesses in my area has gone down in recent years, or at least the stuff available to me has (a lot of the signage is in a language I don't speak and it's hard to tell what the businesses are). The feel is very similar to visiting another country. The difference is that I can go 1 train stop in any direction and then everything is in English.

It's not a huge deal. It is subtle. But it's something that makes the neighbourhood a little less desirable to me.

It also goes without saying that metro Vancouver is the land of outrageous housing prices and dubious adherence to tax laws. That is a huge deal.

I don't agree with the idea that Canadian or English culture is so dominant that everyone who comes here is bound to assimilate regardless of what our policies are. I think this is a form of hubris. Canada does not occupy any guaranteed spot near the top of the world economic and cultural order, nor is it true that everything will work out great no matter if we have 50,000 immigrants a year or 5,000,000 a year.

I also wonder how this dynamic is supposed to be reconciled with our other domestic cultural issues like bilingualism and reconciliation with indigenous people. I doubt that new Vancouverites who don't even speak English care a lot about these domestic issues. I feel like one of Canada's main challenges is a lack of understanding across regions and ethnic groups. I don't think that adding larger groups of quasi-engaged newcomers is going to help with that.

[tablemtn]

If I were to move to a new country, the least I would do is learn their language.

Maybe if you were moving to a new place alone, unmoored from people like yourself in your new destination. But realistically, if your new destination had a large-enough community of people like yourself, you'd be much less-inclined to do so.

Perhaps my views are more cynical than a lot of people, but based on what I've seen around the world over the years, the (post)-modern western conception of "multiculturalism" in the sense of integration just seems like a bizarre fantasy. This is not how most societies around the world operate or want to operate. People who are miffed (for example) at non-"assimilating" Chinese populations in the BC lower mainland apparently never looked beyond their own shores at countries like Indonesia or the Philippines to see what large "overseas Chinese" communities actually look like.

You can't just build a fantasy out of "oughts" and pretend that such a thing is even possible, let alone inevitable. All we can really do is look at real-life cases from elsewhere over time and around the world and draw logical conclusions from those.

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by jtown,man

IHispanic Texans, at least non new arrivals, are as Texas as the stereotypical white cowboy. It just naturally happened. They might or might not speak Spanish. But I know they probably like rural life and drive a truck.

But Hispanic Texans predate white Texans. Of course they're very "Texas". And even Hispanic Texans self-segregate, to an extent. A Hispanic Houston or Dallas neighborhood will be almost entirely Hispanic.

And Texas has a very distinct, easily identifiable subculture. I don't think this can be said of most of Canada (excepting Quebec and Maritimes).

[isaidso]

Markham may be 78% visible minority (a term that doesn't make much sense in 21st century Canada), but is a place diverse if it's almost all Chinese? I'd argue that you've just replaced one dominant group (Europeans) with another dominant group (Chinese).

Statistics Canada needs to do away with the term visible minority. It just doesn't make any sense these days. In Markham the visible minorities are people of European stock.

[isaidso]

Originally Posted by GlassCity

I don't want them to. I'm an immigrant myself and I understand how important it is to maintain where you come from. By integration I meant more so spatially. It sucks that different ethnicities choose to live separately rather than together, and that this trend is increasing. I thought the whole point of multiculturalism was for everyone to come together, when I personally see the opposite happening. This ultimately hurts cultural integration as well, in all directions.

Agree completely. In places where large numbers of immigrants from the same motherland concentrate there's less interest and adoption of Canadian culture. Toronto and Vancouver are significant outliers in this respect. In the rest of Canada immigrants Canadianize over time; especially their children. In Toronto and Vancouver this doesn't seem to happen. They just keep the culture they had and pick and choose bits of culture from television that appeal to them.

I remember one Grey Cup in Vancouver and it was apparent that vast swaths of the population didn't know what it was or that football was played in this country. And alot of these people were Canadian born. The same thing happens in Toronto.

I have no issue with people keeping their culture but not if it just supplants what already exists here. In places like Markham people make no effort to learn or participate in the domestic culture. By extension they have no respect for it either. You can't value a culture if you don't know anything about it.

[Metro-One]

Originally Posted by tablemtn

"Integration" seems like kind of a bizarre and unrealistic thing to hope for. You're generally talking about population groups with histories reaching back into antiquity. Why would they abandon all of that just because they now live in Canada? They already have a culture.

Really???

That is a super sad outlook you have. Almost racist I would say (if you are coming from a puritan point of view).

In Vancouver during my great grandparents and grandparents (and even a tinge into my parent's days) Italians and British were seen as different "races" and both had histories reaching back to antiquity.

Guess what, my Dad (Italian) and my Mom (British) got married! Now the very idea that Italians and British would be seen as anything other than "just white" is laughable.

My wife is Japanese and we are expecting out first child, who will be Italian, British, and Japanese (soooooo much antiquity!!!)

My cousin's child is half British and half Afghani.

My other cousins are half British and half Chinese.

I can't tell you how many of my friends are in interracial relationships and marriages (well over 2/3rds)

Seems to me that we can indeed integrate in a single Canadian society as long as you are willing to ditch the old bull shit tribalism identity politics crap

But yeah, if anything that article actually does highlight more problems and segregation (both from outward and inward forces) than it does multiculturalism.

And yes, if you do move to a foreign country you should be willing to adopt at least the basics of that nation's established mainstream culture. And I have seen many do this (my Indo-Canadian landlords for example had pumpkin carving contests and handed out candy during Halloween, and decked their house out with lights during Christmas, but still retained their Indian culture! An amazing mix that honored both their roots and their new home.) but many are arrogant and just act as if they never left. And don;t worry, I feel the same towards any international living here in Japan that makes no attempt to partake in Japanese festivals, eat Japanese food, or learn the Japanese language. Its only polite.

But you know what, give it a few generations, my family and friends are working on solving that

[lio45]

Originally Posted by GlassCity

I was similarly surprised when I read it myself. Part of me wonders if it's a grass is greener thing, because it seems in the American left-wing movement the melting pot is considered a bad thing.

In fairness, I'm just going through the Multiculturalism Act now and there's nothing in it about integration. The main text goes as follows. I've bolded the only parts that seem to hint at Canadian customs in any way.


http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/a...1.html#docCont

(i) is one of the stupidest things I've ever read! This seriously emanates from the Government of Canada?!? Hard to believe.

You can't "strengthen" a language while also "strengthening" another language in the same public sphere, which is finite.

If you "strengthen" Mandarin in someone123's neighborhood, then you're doing it at the expense of English. If you "strengthen" Spanish in Texas, then you're doing it at the expense of English.

The creators of that document being oblivious to such a basic fact is mind-blowing.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Metro-One

And yes, if you do move to a foreign country you should be willing to adopt at least the basics of that nation's established mainstream culture. And I have seen many do this (my Indo-Canadian landlords for example had pumpkin carving contests and handed out candy during Halloween, and decked their house out with lights during Christmas, but still retained their Indian culture! An amazing mix that honored both their roots and their new home.) but many are arrogant and just act as if they never left. And don;t worry, I feel the same towards any international living here in Japan that makes no attempt to partake in Japanese festivals, eat Japanese food, or learn the Japanese language. Its only polite.

Canadians are used to a traditional view of immigration that is based on families moving here from a place of poorer opportunities to establish a new life. This still exists and it is still common but it is a fraction of the current immigration stream. Canada's investor class immigration programs encourage a different stream of migrants who want a Canadian passport and Canadian assets as an insurance policy in case things go south in their home country. These immigrants still often work or keep most of their wealth overseas, they don't pay into the system as much, and they are not forced to interact with the rest of Canadian society as much.

Richmond has a birth tourism industry, with businesses set up to bring pregnant women to Canada so they can have their babies here as Canadian citizens. This industry seems to be small but it is a sign of how things are changing and that our regulations and views need to adapt. Technological improvements and economic development in other countries are changing Canada from a relatively rich and remote country to a cheap country that's easy to get to.

[Capsicum]

Originally Posted by someone123

I don't agree with the idea that Canadian or English culture is so dominant that everyone who comes here is bound to assimilate regardless of what our policies are. I think this is a form of hubris. Canada does not occupy any guaranteed spot near the top of the world economic and cultural order, nor is it true that everything will work out great no matter if we have 50,000 immigrants a year or 5,000,000 a year.

But does the US not have this problem? Foreigners love American culture so much that they probably nowadays have a lot of exposure to it before even immigrating. You see the youth or young Chinese immigrants that already know and watch the NBA or other US major league sports and Indian immigrants that can rattle off Hollywood movie references or hip hop lyrics at the drop of a hat, if you talk to them.

Originally Posted by Crawford

But Hispanic Texans predate white Texans. Of course they're very "Texas". And even Hispanic Texans self-segregate, to an extent. A Hispanic Houston or Dallas neighborhood will be almost entirely Hispanic.

And Texas has a very distinct, easily identifiable subculture. I don't think this can be said of most of Canada (excepting Quebec and Maritimes).

Canadian provinces farther west than Quebec and the Atlantic provinces had distinctive settlement patterns and distinct subcultures too (like the bloc settlements of the prairies that had Ukrainians, Mennonites etc., Manitoba with a strong native and Metis presence, BC which had settlers directly from the British Isles rather than "out east", plus Irish, German, Chinese etc., Toronto was heavily Protestant WASP until the 70s etc.), sure things have changed but how's that any different from say LA shifting from colonial Spanish-Mexican to heavily white Anglo-Protestant, then back to heavily Hispanic immigrant and other minorities, or NYC going from New Amsterdam to British and American rule, to then Irish/Italian and all the Ellis Island immigrants, to all those diverse groups like Russians, Guyanese, Ecuadorians etc. today.

What subculture exists in a place isn't static. Where do you draw the line time-wise anyways? Centuries, decades? Much of the Hispanic Southwest was Spanish-speaking before English speaking, but then you also had French parts of the Midwest and central US back in the day and Dutch New Amsterdam, yet these places are all assimilated to Anglo American culture.

You had Scandinavians in the Upper Midwest and German communities that spoke German for many generations before assimilating.

Originally Posted by isaidso

Markham may be 78% visible minority (a term that doesn't make much sense in 21st century Canada), but is a place diverse if it's almost all Chinese? I'd argue that you've just replaced one dominant group (Europeans) with another dominant group (Chinese).

Statistics Canada needs to do away with the term visible minority. It just doesn't make any sense these days. In Markham the visible minorities are people of European stock.

Americans use the term "minority" or "racial minority" all the time, despite having many majority-minority cities. They're still minorities in the country as a whole, just not locally.

Originally Posted by isaidso

Agree completely. In places where large numbers of immigrants from the same motherland concentrate there's less interest and adoption of Canadian culture. Toronto and Vancouver are significant outliers in this respect. In the rest of Canada immigrants Canadianize over time; especially their children. In Toronto and Vancouver this doesn't seem to happen. They just keep the culture they had and pick and choose bits of culture from television that appeal to them.

I remember one Grey Cup in Vancouver and it was apparent that vast swaths of the population didn't know what it was or that football was played in this country. And alot of these people were Canadian born. The same thing happens in Toronto.

I have no issue with people keeping their culture but not if it just supplants what already exists here. In places like Markham people make no effort to learn or participate in the domestic culture. By extension they have no respect for it either. You can't value a culture if you don't know anything about it.

I'm pretty sure that Chinese-Canadians in Markham and Indo-Canadians in Brampton don't literally live like people in a Chinese city or Indian city. That's clearly an exaggeration. At the very least, besides following laws, if they have kids, they literally cannot raise them 100% like the old country, as kids are pretty perceptive and cued in to what the wider culture is and will generally not be willingly siloed in most cases (I mean, there are cases like Amish communities where kids may choose to leave or stay during the Rumspringa etc.).

Originally Posted by lio45

(i) is one of the stupidest things I've ever read! This seriously emanates from the Government of Canada?!? Hard to believe.

You can't "strengthen" a language while also "strengthening" another language in the same public sphere, which is finite.

If you "strengthen" Mandarin in someone123's neighborhood, then you're doing it at the expense of English. If you "strengthen" Spanish in Texas, then you're doing it at the expense of English.

The creators of that document being oblivious to such a basic fact is mind-blowing.

OK, resources are finite, that's true, but it's not like people can't be bilingual or multilingual or there also aren't societies that promote more than one language, without having it too much at the expense of others.

I mean it's probably untenable to have say dozens of languages being strengthened in the public sphere competing for attention, but a Montreal-like scenario where people can speak English, French both (and sometimes a heritage language that's non-official) isn't that much of a stretch, even though in the case of the heritage language it often goes away after generations.

[Jonesy55]

Originally Posted by GlassCity

For example, the original post's article mentions the issue of signage dominant in other languages. This should not be allowed.

It's probably not as much of a problem as it has been in the past. I was in the Chinatown of Manchester, UK today and I stopped by a supermarket to get a few supplies that are hard to come by in my home town.

I've been visiting that Chinatown off and on for 25 years and they have always had signs in Chinese with no English translations, I never had any idea what they said, but now I can just take a pic of the sign with my phone, put it through Google translate and get a good idea of what it says in a few seconds even if the translation isn't perfect.