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  #41  
Old Posted Aug 3, 2011, 11:36 PM
Dr Nevergold Dr Nevergold is offline
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^^Liberals have always been the party of change, of progress, of ideas. The Conservatives are always going to be the cautious pessimist types. They will always say "we can't" when Liberals are bold enough to say "we can" and McGuinty has proven it.

McGuinty closed the coal generation plants, he didn't talk about it. McGuinty risked the ehealth investment - even though it turned into an abysmal failure - he made the attempt to digitize medical records with that program. Whether you fail or succeed, the difference is that Liberal philosophy is to progress and make room for change.

Today's PC's have less P and more C... It is just staunch can't-do attitude, surrounded by anti-government hyperbole. It sounds good to the voter to say "I'll give you more of your own money" but they don't really even mean it. Just look at the Ford debacle in Toronto right now. He's all about cuts, cuts, cuts, but the taxes are still going up and Toronto is backpeddling.

Do we really need the Conservative trifecta in Toronto, Queens Park, AND Ottawa at the same time? Canada, Ontario, and Toronto will be backpeddling for years before moving forward again. The *only* innovation during the Ford administration will have been plans that were sculpted and paid for before Ford even got to office. He'll be riding on the previous administrations for his "successful" programs.

Conservatives typically have few ideas of their own, and it shows so strongly in the Hudak campaign. He has no real plans, just a message of tax cuts, spending cuts.

Ontario simply deserves better than to deal with a Hudak administration.
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  #42  
Old Posted Aug 4, 2011, 12:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brandon716 View Post
^^Liberals have always been the party of change, of progress, of ideas.
While I wouldn't call it progress, the idea of the Commonsense Revolution was a pretty big change for Ontario. We're still reeling from it.

Most of the ideas that identify Canada's social atmosphere came from the CCF/NDP, not the Liberals, and Ontario's PC governments in the past accomplished a lot. Looking back, the hard right policies of Harris and Hudak are actually an anomaly in PC history. Before the 1990s, they were a very progressive party.
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  #43  
Old Posted Aug 4, 2011, 1:10 AM
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I would also argue that Conservatives aren't so much staunch "it can't be done" types as those who tend to feel that "the status quo is perfect/acceptable, so why fix what isn't broken" types. On another note, you did bring up a good point about being progressive, Brandon.

Significant things put forth/implemented by left-leaning parties in Canada:

- Universal Health Care
- The Canadian Flag
- Peacekeeping
- Repatriating the Constitution
- Student Loans
- Canada Pension Plan
- The Order of Canada
- Trans-Canada Highway
- Trans-Canada Pipeline
- St. Lawrence Seaway
- Canadian Citizenship Act
- Charter of Rights and Freedoms
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  #44  
Old Posted Aug 4, 2011, 5:43 PM
Dr Nevergold Dr Nevergold is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vid View Post
While I wouldn't call it progress, the idea of the Commonsense Revolution was a pretty big change for Ontario. We're still reeling from it.

Most of the ideas that identify Canada's social atmosphere came from the CCF/NDP, not the Liberals, and Ontario's PC governments in the past accomplished a lot. Looking back, the hard right policies of Harris and Hudak are actually an anomaly in PC history. Before the 1990s, they were a very progressive party.
As I said before, there is less P and more C in today's PC party.
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  #45  
Old Posted Aug 4, 2011, 6:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vid View Post
While I wouldn't call it progress, the idea of the Commonsense Revolution was a pretty big change for Ontario. We're still reeling from it.

Most of the ideas that identify Canada's social atmosphere came from the CCF/NDP, not the Liberals, and Ontario's PC governments in the past accomplished a lot. Looking back, the hard right policies of Harris and Hudak are actually an anomaly in PC history. Before the 1990s, they were a very progressive party.
The problem with that nowadays is if they went back to that, the conservative voters would bolt in a heartbeat, and if it continued for multiple elections (i.e. if John Tory ran again this year), it would likely lead to a resurrection/creation of a new Reform-like party federally and provincially. A major reason for Harris's right turn was to hold off a potential Reform Party creation in Ontario at the provincial level, which would assure Liberal supermajorities as far as the eye can see...
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  #46  
Old Posted Aug 4, 2011, 7:43 PM
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Today's problem in Canada is that the left is split into many directions. The Liberal and NDP vote combined still trumps the Conservatives federally, and in Ontario this election is also about time in office. McGuinty has been in power for many years now, and it has an effect on the voter. People like freshness, even when that freshness is a Hudak return to Harris like policies wrapped in a new gift box.

Time is against McGuinty's side right now, we all know that. But the heart of the average Canadian hasn't turned to the far right.
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  #47  
Old Posted Aug 4, 2011, 7:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Brandon716 View Post
Today's problem in Canada is that the left is split into many directions. The Liberal and NDP vote combined still trumps the Conservatives federally, and in Ontario this election is also about time in office. McGuinty has been in power for many years now, and it has an effect on the voter. People like freshness, even when that freshness is a Hudak return to Harris like policies wrapped in a new gift box.

Time is against McGuinty's side right now, we all know that. But the heart of the average Canadian hasn't turned to the far right.
If the left united, there would be spillover on both sides, at least initially - it is unlikely centrist Liberals would want anything to do with the NDP and would bolt to the Conservatives (although a lot of them already have) and the hardcore socialists in the NDP want nothing to do with the Liberals that they perceive as a big-business party, and would likely form a new left-wing party.
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  #48  
Old Posted Aug 4, 2011, 10:28 PM
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Ideally, this is what I would like to see as far as parties are concerned:



Green Democrats (Green party and far-left NDP combined into one party)

Liberal Democrats (remainder of NDP combined with left-leaning Liberals)

Progressive Party (remaining Liberals with moderate and progressive Conservatives)

Conservative Party (remaining Conservatives)

Throw in alternative voting like what they have in Australia, and we have a very fair and balanced system that could allow for three of the four parties to have an equally likely shot at forming a government.
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  #49  
Old Posted Aug 4, 2011, 11:50 PM
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^That is a good concept, but obviously not reality. Right now Canada has a right wing that only a few years ago people thought would never survive in a singular party. The exact same things were said in the early 00's that are being said now about more potential cooperation between the Liberals and NDP.

Personally, I like multi-party systems. But only when the balance is there and it isn't one right wing party unified against a multi-party split on the left.

This is getting above and beyond the Ontario election, but to end this one statement I'd like to see a Liberal-NDP coalition (official) in a future federal election to bring down the Harper government. The parties don't have to dissolve and become one if it is too controversial, but they do need to work together and accept that the right in Canada is unified and can't be beat unless more cooperation happens.

Any NDP voter who truly thinks the NDP can stand alone and beat Harper nationally is only kidding themselves. The Liberals also can't do it and need to learn to work with the NDP in a coalition, that is if these parties can't merge.
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  #50  
Old Posted Aug 5, 2011, 12:27 AM
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The Green party isn't far left. While the Federal level is much more left-wing than it was, the Ontario provincial Green Party is still a very fiscally conservative party, typically referred to as "blue greens" or "ecocapitalists". The Green Party is often at odds with the NDP, so combining the two would be a horrible fit.

When you consider the centre-right camps in the Liberals and Greens, Canada is about a 50-50 split between left and right.
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  #51  
Old Posted Aug 7, 2011, 11:31 PM
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The problem with the argument that the left is "split too many ways" is that the Liberal party is much more similar to the PCs than the NDP. Anyway, the Liberals have done terrible things for small communities across the province, especially in the North, including recently taking away the Go-Train refurbishing contract from North Bay to a Quebec company, doing absolutely nothing when it comes to closures of the Met Site in Timmins to, again, Quebec. He might as well run for the Bloc. I really do think the Liberals will be swept out of the North with Nipissing and Parry Sound going PC and the rest NDP. Their only hope is to hold onto Sudbury, but that would only be based on the popular MPP in Bartolucci. I know many NDP-supporters, including myself, who would prefer to have Hudak over McGuinty as premier (of course, after Horwath, but that isn't looking likely).
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  #52  
Old Posted Aug 7, 2011, 11:41 PM
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Originally Posted by toaster View Post
The problem with the argument that the left is "split too many ways" is that the Liberal party is much more similar to the PCs than the NDP. Anyway, the Liberals have done terrible things for small communities across the province, especially in the North, including recently taking away the Go-Train refurbishing contract from North Bay to a Quebec company, doing absolutely nothing when it comes to closures of the Met Site in Timmins to, again, Quebec. He might as well run for the Bloc. I really do think the Liberals will be swept out of the North with Nipissing and Parry Sound going PC and the rest NDP. Their only hope is to hold onto Sudbury, but that would only be based on the popular MPP in Bartolucci. I know many NDP-supporters, including myself, who would prefer to have Hudak over McGuinty as premier (of course, after Horwath, but that isn't looking likely).
The old PCs weren't exactly a right-wing party anyway, which was a major reason the old Reform Party was formed.

The multiple contracts to Quebec were downright insane, they have NO political value unless McGuinty has federal aspirations.
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  #53  
Old Posted Aug 8, 2011, 2:16 PM
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Appears the NDP are at an upswing in polls....

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/.../?from=2121072
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  #54  
Old Posted Aug 9, 2011, 3:51 AM
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Interesting chart, I see the HST has very much hurt McGuinty. I was headed to Ottawa for Canada Day in 2010, and I remember that weekend was the weekend that the HST hit the fuel prices. If you look at that chart, the Liberals immediately took a huge hit for daring to install an HST and immediately lost a core of support (looks to be obviously linked to the HST). The Liberals have absolutely and completely been hurt by the HST, there is no doubt or question about it. Despite the move being a tax simplification, it has given the Hudak campaign an immediate punching bag that they won't let up on... This tax cut/spending cut message is all they have, and it sells well among those who don't care about green energy or efficiency.

With that said, the polls are headed in the right direction (pun not intended) if you're not a fan of Hudak. While a vote for Horwath is a wasted vote (just like voting for Layton sent Harper a raging majority), McGuinty is actually picking up support. You cannot compare what happened at the federal level with what is going to happen in Ontario in several weeks.

Here is a headline from late June, from the Star:

Quote:
http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/p...r-hudak-tories
Hudak Tories roaring toward a majority: Poll


The Forum Research survey found Hudak’s Tories at 41 per cent compared with 26 per cent for Premier Dalton McGuinty’s governing Liberals, 22 per cent for NDP Leader Andrea Horwath, and 8 per cent for Green Leader Mike Schreiner.
^Quite frankly that Green vote makes me want to vomit. There isn't exactly anything to protest in the Canadian government quite like the misery south of the border... McGuinty's record is green as green gets, and he risked it all on the HST and increasing energy prices to pay for it. Green voters should just pack up and go home and not bother voting in Ontario. I get sickened when a politician like McGuinty spends serious political capital and gets hurt by it.

Anyway... Here is the news only a month later, Hudak is tanking and he's going to have a real fight to stay in this race.

Same newspaper, different mood today.

Quote:
http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/p...nks-poll-shows
Hudak’s lead shrinks, poll shows

Premier Dalton McGuinty’s Liberals have cut Progressive Conservative Leader Tim Hudak’s lead to 10 points from 15 points in the past month, a new poll suggests.

The Forum Research survey found Hudak’s Tories at 38 per cent — down from 41 per cent in June — to McGuinty’s Liberals at 28 per cent, up from 26 per cent. NDP Leader Andrea Horwath jumped to 24 per cent from 22 per cent and Green Party Leader Mike Schreiner was down to seven per cent from eight per cent.


At least the polls are heading in the right direction. Maybe the Conservative dynasty is pre-mature?

Another factor, Ontario has an interesting history...

The opposite is true. Federal routs are typically followed by provincial wins.
The federal Liberal rout in Fall 1984 was followed by a spring 1985 provincial Liberal win.
The federal PC rout in fall 1993 was followed by a spring 1995 provincial PC win.
The last time we had a spring federal election followed by a fall provincial election was 1963.
In that 1963 election, Pearson and Robarts took equal shares (Pearson 45.8%; Robarts 48.9%) of Ontario votes and formed government.


McGuinty may have just enough history behind him to snag another term, which would be fantastic.
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  #55  
Old Posted Aug 9, 2011, 6:25 AM
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The Liberals and NDP are too different to form a coalition...I've voted Liberal before but I just can't bring myself to vote NDP. I'm not really a partisan person (hell, I voted for Harper in the last election) but Hudak is angering me with the green energy stuff so I'm voting for McGuinty just like I have in the last two provincial elections.
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  #56  
Old Posted Aug 9, 2011, 2:06 PM
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We Ontarians are suck fickle, stupid creatures with the memory of a goldfish. Like it said in the two links I provided earlier, Ontario's economic growth and job creation outpaced that of the rest of Canada and the US combined. The PC's sure as hell didn't do that.
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  #57  
Old Posted Aug 9, 2011, 5:37 PM
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Funny how people perceive things.

When anything that goes wrong, i.e. Walkerton which even David Peterson said could have happened on ANY government's watch, the PCs get blamed. Too much spending reductions and all that noise

Yet when things work out, economic growth or increase in jobs, the PCs get no credit. Must have been the US economic growth or robust economy. Since when the PCs brought in a competitive tax structure or business friendly labour laws after Rae's disastrous reign that didn't help economic growth
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  #58  
Old Posted Aug 10, 2011, 12:04 AM
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  #59  
Old Posted Aug 10, 2011, 12:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Pimpmasterdac View Post
Funny how people perceive things.

When anything that goes wrong, i.e. Walkerton which even David Peterson said could have happened on ANY government's watch, the PCs get blamed. Too much spending reductions and all that noise

Yet when things work out, economic growth or increase in jobs, the PCs get no credit. Must have been the US economic growth or robust economy. Since when the PCs brought in a competitive tax structure or business friendly labour laws after Rae's disastrous reign that didn't help economic growth
This, coming from the guy who a page or two ago blamed nigh everything on McGuinty?

Pot, meet kettle.
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  #60  
Old Posted Aug 10, 2011, 2:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Jamaican-Phoenix View Post
We Ontarians are suck fickle, stupid creatures with the memory of a goldfish. Like it said in the two links I provided earlier, Ontario's economic growth and job creation outpaced that of the rest of Canada and the US combined. The PC's sure as hell didn't do that.
You mean, people have the memory of a fucking fly.


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