HomeDiagramsDatabaseMapsForumSkyscraper Posters
     

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Regional Sections > Canada > Ontario

Reply

 
Thread Tools Display Modes
     
     
  #41  
Old Posted May 16, 2014, 8:16 PM
lio45 lio45 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Lévis, QC
Posts: 15,621
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1overcosc View Post
The biggest problem I see with this setup is Kingston. In many ways (culturally, socially, economically, etc.) Kingston is very much an island from its surrounding area. Politically it's very progressive, whereas the rest of the Eastern Ontario-sans-Ottawa is one of the most right-wing places in Canada.
Why would that be a "big" problem?

This rural/urban divide is present everywhere...

BC manages to function in spite of Peace River having Conservative MPs while Saanich-Gulf Island has a Green MP...

I doubt the gap between Kingston and the rest of Eastern Ontario is actually close to, say, between Austin and rural Texas. Among other possible examples. Or San Francisco and CA's cowboy/oil country. The examples are endless... in Kingston's case, with our political system, it actually works decently well. Kern County federal votes are always wasted, and so are Austin's, while Kingston can have a MP from a party that's different from the other MPs of Eastern Ontario and therefore still have some weight in both provincial and federal parliaments.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #42  
Old Posted May 16, 2014, 8:20 PM
ue ue is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Notleygrad, Albertastan
Posts: 8,718
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamaican-Phoenix View Post
Except only one person has argued for the split to be made six or seven ways; I myself advocate only three: Northern Ontario, Golden Horseshoe, rump remainder.

And no, it doesn't open a huge can of worms for some time. There's no reason or desire to split Saskatchewan in half. Vancouver Island WAS its own separate colony once upon a time. As for the rest of BC, there's only a tiny part of that province that wants to separate from BC and join Alberta. As for Quebec, yeah, some want Montreal Island to be its own city-state, and the people of the Saguenay want to be independent from Quebec, but so what?

You're basically constructing a bunch of fearful hypothetical strawmen that has no basis in reality. If the people demand it, then the people should get it, or at the very least be listened to. That's how a democracy is supposed to work.

Is change really such a bad thing?
Except that there is no serious interest in splitting Ontario up like this, except for maybe Northern Ontario, thus this thread is nothing but a bunch of hypotheticals because democracy, at least in this regard, seems to be working, sans Northern Ontario.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #43  
Old Posted May 16, 2014, 8:41 PM
Wharn's Avatar
Wharn Wharn is offline
Torontonian Refugee
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Oxy County
Posts: 981
Quote:
Originally Posted by ssiguy View Post
First of all, when dividing up Ontario you have to understand that Ottawa/Gatineau will NEVER, EVER, EVER be allowed to form a NCR like Australia's ACT. The reason is that Gatineau is primarily a federalist area and when the next {as there is always a next} referendum comes along, those Non Gatineau votes will be essential. Ottawa will NEVER allow an NCR, at least not one that includes any part of Quebec.
This guy knows the deal.

The rest of these proposals look generally hairbrained. More duplication of services with more levels of government that impose more taxes and restrictions on the private sector while reducing Ontario's influence on a national and international level.

I've got a better idea. The problem is the government, and its bureaucrats, are all concentrated in Toronto and by extension, in the South. They only know one reality: streetcars, sushi and Rob Ford. What we really need to do is move the government out of the most populous city, for attitude and efficiency reasons. Keep Ontario united, and move all the government offices to Sudbury. You would completely revolutionize the region and pivot the balance of power northwards. At the same time, you ease congestion in Toronto, which like most southern cities can survive on its own, without the additional government positions. Provinces are not like municipalities, and should not be so callously split apart. Let's work together and use each others' core competencies to move forward, and retake our rightful place as the Province everyone envies, rather than Quebec 2.0 (sans l'histoire et culture).
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #44  
Old Posted May 16, 2014, 8:55 PM
Blitz's Avatar
Blitz Blitz is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Windsor, Ontario
Posts: 4,196
^ That's a good idea but if they did that the government in power would lose too much support from around Toronto (e.g. the uproar when there was discussion of moving the Ministry of Labour to Windsor in the early '90s).

One of the most well-known sayings in Windsor is that "Ontario ends at London". Just like northern Ontario, we feel no connection at all to Toronto and there is much anti-Toronto angst.

I like the idea of dividing it into 4 provinces. I think Kitchener/Guelph/Cambridge/Brantford should be part of a new GTHA province instead of being part of Southwestern Ontario since those cities are turning into mini-satellites that have more in common with the GTA than with London. We need our own province down here where everything is centralized in London.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #45  
Old Posted May 16, 2014, 9:02 PM
lio45 lio45 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Lévis, QC
Posts: 15,621
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wharn View Post
This guy knows the deal.

The rest of these proposals look generally hairbrained. More duplication of services with more levels of government that impose more taxes and restrictions on the private sector while reducing Ontario's influence on a national and international level.

I've got a better idea. The problem is the government, and its bureaucrats, are all concentrated in Toronto and by extension, in the South. They only know one reality: streetcars, sushi and Rob Ford. What we really need to do is move the government out of the most populous city, for attitude and efficiency reasons. Keep Ontario united, and move all the government offices to Sudbury. You would completely revolutionize the region and pivot the balance of power northwards. At the same time, you ease congestion in Toronto, which like most southern cities can survive on its own, without the additional government positions. Provinces are not like municipalities, and should not be so callously split apart. Let's work together and use each others' core competencies to move forward, and retake our rightful place as the Province everyone envies, rather than Quebec 2.0 (sans l'histoire et culture).
It's funny how grass always seems greener in the neighbor's yard...

The big complaint here is that the provincial bureaucrats in Quebec City don't treat Montreal like the all-important metropolis it is (and the economic and financial lung), and that everything would be better if Montreal got more red carpet treatment provincially while the regions got less.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #46  
Old Posted May 17, 2014, 1:42 AM
vid's Avatar
vid vid is offline
Because it's 2015.
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Thunder Bay
Posts: 37,375
If Northern Ontario had a regional government with control over natural resources, transportation, social services and minimum wage we'd be a more prosperous part of Ontario. We wouldn't "drain" Toronto as much, and Toronto would likely benefit from it.

The fact that the Provincial government isn't allowing Northern Ontario to develop more independently from the rest of the province actually hurts Toronto more than it would if we just left, I think. The debate up here has shifted more towards having a Northern Ontario regional government take over certain provincial responsibilities as opposed to full separation from Ontario, because we do benefit from being part of Southern Ontario.
__________________
Toronto & HamiltonThunder Bayother photos | my geofiction | random things | skyscraper diagrams
It's not about what you don't have—it's the little you're given, and how far you can run with it.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #47  
Old Posted May 17, 2014, 4:15 AM
swimmer_spe swimmer_spe is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 1,317
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1overcosc View Post
Thank you waterloowarrior. You put my idea into something that actually sounds like a foundation for policy. I think this is what Ontario needs. It's achievable, practical, and a solution to Ontario's regional issues.

Going based on swimmer_spe's proposed 7 subprovinces (modified slightly based on my own thoughts) I drew this map:


Here's a close up on southern Ontario:


-Ottawa/Capital subprovince (RED) includes Ottawa, western third of Prescott-Russell (geographic county of Russell), and the municipalities of North Grenville, Beckwith, Carleton Place, Mississippi Mills, Arnprior, and McNab/Braeside. This accurately captures all of Ottawa's exurbs and leaves the truly rural areas outside it. Could serve as a strong foundation to keep Ottawa's exurban influence from spilling beyond that border.

-Eastern Ontario subprovince (PINK), covers the remaining (non-Capital subprovince) areas of SDG, LG, Lanark, Renfrew counties, and all the counties eastwards to and including Northumberland & Peterborough. Predominately rural with Kingston as the only real city.

-Central Ontario subprovince (BLUE): Muskoka, most of Parry Sound District, Haliburton, Kawartha Lakes, Simcoe, plus Brock Township in Durham region (this township is WAY too rural and isolated from Toronto to be part of the GTA province--it really shouldn't be in Durham to begin with...) Very rural, mostly cottage country, Barrie the only real city. Would likely have tourism as its main industry. Also a very socially conservative area.

-GTHA subprovince (GREEN): Toronto, Hamilton, Halton, Peel, York, Durham-minus-Brock. A city-state with great potential to become a highly intensified urban region

-SW Ontario subprovince (ORANGE): Grey, Dufferin, Wellington, Waterloo, Brant, Niagara and everything westward. Probably the most viable of the southern subprovinces, in the sense that it would include a healthy mix of urban and rural, with a diverse economy.

-NE subprovince (beige): part of Parry Sound district, and all the NE districts, plus a small section of Kenora district (which oddly enough, literally extends from MB border to James Bay...)

-NW subprovince (purple): most of Kenora district, plus Rainy River & Thunder Bay districts

The biggest problem I see with this setup is Kingston. In many ways (culturally, socially, economically, etc.) Kingston is very much an island from its surrounding area. Politically it's very progressive, whereas the rest of the Eastern Ontario-sans-Ottawa is one of the most right-wing places in Canada.

I think there's actually some merit to having Kingston completely on its own as the 8th subprovince, all to itself. It's a truly unique situation. The Southwestern province also has cities that are much more progressive than the surrounding countryside, but there's multiple ones--Kitchener, London, Windsor, Niagara, etc. Whereas Kingston is really all on its own. Barring that, Kingston should be a 'special municipality' with greater autonomy but still within the Eastern subprovince.
I think that more or less, is close enough to what I was getting at.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #48  
Old Posted May 17, 2014, 4:19 AM
swimmer_spe swimmer_spe is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 1,317
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mister F View Post
Just to play devil's advocate, northern Ontario gets much, much more highway spending per capita than southern. You might feel that the Trans-Canada is inadequate and maybe it is, but a four lane highway through a region as vast and sparsely populated as northern Ontario is essentially unheard of worldwide. Don't forget that the GTA subsidizes the rural areas of the province, as does any major city.

Torontonians can rightly claim to be ignored too - it has a pathetic subway system for its size, the worst traffic on the continent, and a chronically underfunded municipal government. People in Toronto want to be their own province for the opposite reason than some of you want it: because it would reduce how much GTA money gets spent elsewhere.

The grass is always greener, as they say.
Drive North on highway 400, and then go on to Highway 11. Once you get to North Bay... KEEP GOING.

Now, after fixing your car due to the horrible state of the highways, you can say that the north gets too much for the highways.

The roads progressively gets worse north of Barrie. Except for the new construction of the 4 laning of 11 and 400, there is little new construction that is improving the roads.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #49  
Old Posted May 17, 2014, 5:03 AM
ssiguy ssiguy is online now
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: White Rock BC
Posts: 5,147
There is an alternative...................instead of creating new provinces the province itself could merge some of the existing counties and give them more power in terms of taxation, transportation, planning etc.

There is no reason why there has to be so many different counties for no apparent reason. As an example merge Oxford/Elgin/Middlesex or Essex/Chatham-Kent/Lambton or Hamilton/Niagara/Halimand-Norfolk/Brant or Barrie/Grey/Musloka/Haliburton/Parry Sound or Waterlou/Perth/Guelph/Dufferin or Toronto/Durham/York/Peel. I'm not going to name them all but you get the idea.

This would actually reduce the bureaucracy and red tape without costing anything extra and could be cheaper. it would make for more effective planning and those areas could have more independence from Queen's Park and result in a less Toronto focused economic, political, and social policy.

This is sort of what BC has. For example Chilliwack/Abbotsford/Mission/Hope/Harrison/Agassiz all make up the Frazer regional District much like the GVRD.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #50  
Old Posted May 17, 2014, 12:45 PM
Jamaican-Phoenix's Avatar
Jamaican-Phoenix Jamaican-Phoenix is offline
R2-D2's army of death
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Downtown Ottawa
Posts: 3,310
Quote:
Originally Posted by ue View Post
Except that there is no serious interest in splitting Ontario up like this, except for maybe Northern Ontario, thus this thread is nothing but a bunch of hypotheticals because democracy, at least in this regard, seems to be working, sans Northern Ontario.
Except as I and others have pointed out, it really isn't working.

Northern Ontario is easily the most ignored region of this gargantuan province, but as I and others have pointed out, the rest of Toronto outside the GTHA or adjoining satellite cities are also ignored a fair bit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wharn View Post
This guy knows the deal.

The rest of these proposals look generally hairbrained. More duplication of services with more levels of government that impose more taxes and restrictions on the private sector while reducing Ontario's influence on a national and international level.
Where are you getting that idea from?

Quote:
I've got a better idea. The problem is the government, and its bureaucrats, are all concentrated in Toronto and by extension, in the South. They only know one reality: streetcars, sushi and Rob Ford. What we really need to do is move the government out of the most populous city, for attitude and efficiency reasons. Keep Ontario united, and move all the government offices to Sudbury. You would completely revolutionize the region and pivot the balance of power northwards. At the same time, you ease congestion in Toronto, which like most southern cities can survive on its own, without the additional government positions. Provinces are not like municipalities, and should not be so callously split apart. Let's work together and use each others' core competencies to move forward, and retake our rightful place as the Province everyone envies, rather than Quebec 2.0 (sans l'histoire et culture).
Except people in the GTA will likely throw a fit. Also, I'm not sure congestion would be relieved as much as you're implying.

It's not a bad idea, but the chances of any Ontario government (now or in the future) turning its gaze away from the GTHA are slim to none. I know this, and Northern Ontarians know this. A subregional polity of sorts for Northern Ontario could be a good start though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blitz View Post
^ That's a good idea but if they did that the government in power would lose too much support from around Toronto (e.g. the uproar when there was discussion of moving the Ministry of Labour to Windsor in the early '90s).

One of the most well-known sayings in Windsor is that "Ontario ends at London". Just like northern Ontario, we feel no connection at all to Toronto and there is much anti-Toronto angst.

I like the idea of dividing it into 4 provinces. I think Kitchener/Guelph/Cambridge/Brantford should be part of a new GTHA province instead of being part of Southwestern Ontario since those cities are turning into mini-satellites that have more in common with the GTA than with London. We need our own province down here where everything is centralized in London.
I think that would end up being too small a province. I'd rather the GTHA/Golden Horseshoe be its own thing, Northern Ontario, and then a rump remainder.

This rump remainder would actually be relatively similar across the landscape (save for Eastern Ontario which has a Francophone history and character). It would have similar geography, a similar economy, several good educational institutions, and would be relatively balanced in a population sense across the province. Plus, it would have some decent cities; Ottawa, Kingston, London, Windsor, and K-W, plus several smaller cities and towns.

Quote:
Originally Posted by swimmer_spe View Post
Drive North on highway 400, and then go on to Highway 11. Once you get to North Bay... KEEP GOING.

Now, after fixing your car due to the horrible state of the highways, you can say that the north gets too much for the highways.

The roads progressively gets worse north of Barrie. Except for the new construction of the 4 laning of 11 and 400, there is little new construction that is improving the roads.
This man speaks the truth.

I remember having the opportunity to drive down the 11 towards Huntsville as part of a detour (crash on the 17). I was surprised (and jealous) to see this relatively new and paved 4-lane highway. It doesn't really exist anywhere else in the region. The 17 towards Ottawa is a two lane undivided highway that occasionally widens to three lanes. And it sucks.
__________________
Franky: Ajldub, name calling is what they do when good arguments can't be found - don't sink to their level. Claiming the thread is "boring" is also a way to try to discredit a thread that doesn't match their particular bias.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #51  
Old Posted May 17, 2014, 3:11 PM
Mister F Mister F is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 2,189
^Most of that stretch of Highway 17 gets very low volumes and doesn't need anything more than passing lanes. Once you get towards Pembroke it gets busier though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by swimmer_spe View Post
Drive North on highway 400, and then go on to Highway 11. Once you get to North Bay... KEEP GOING.

Now, after fixing your car due to the horrible state of the highways, you can say that the north gets too much for the highways.

The roads progressively gets worse north of Barrie. Except for the new construction of the 4 laning of 11 and 400, there is little new construction that is improving the roads.
I've been there. I've been on even more backroads highways, like 144 for example. They're no different from roads with similar traffic volumes in the south. There are many, many random regional and county roads in southern Ontario with more traffic than anything in the north. Simcoe County alone has at least a dozen two lane county roads that are busier than Highway 11 past North Bay. Between Ottawa and Windsor it's at least several hundred. And a lot of them aren't exactly in great shape.

This year the north is getting $513 million in highway spending. That's 23% of the spending with 6% of the population. 5 times as much spending per capita as the south. As for "little new construction" besides 11 & 400, read the document I linked to. Maintenance such as repaving is happening on roads all over the north, with 371 km of rehabs this year alone.

I'm just saying that people complaining that northern highways are ignored need to have some perspective. If you're going to live in a massive, sparsely populated region you can't expect the same standard of highways as more populated areas. It's not like the streets are paved with gold once you get south of Barrie. Try jamming into a subway train in rush hour...or sitting in a 404 traffic jam...or bouncing through the potholes of Wellesley Street...and then say that the south gets all the attention.

The GTA being its own province would mean less money for the north, not more.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1overcosc View Post
I think there's actually some merit to having Kingston completely on its own as the 8th subprovince, all to itself. It's a truly unique situation. The Southwestern province also has cities that are much more progressive than the surrounding countryside, but there's multiple ones--Kitchener, London, Windsor, Niagara, etc. Whereas Kingston is really all on its own. Barring that, Kingston should be a 'special municipality' with greater autonomy but still within the Eastern subprovince.
Peterborough is very liberal as well, but the riding has more countryside so conservatives get elected more often.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #52  
Old Posted May 17, 2014, 9:48 PM
vid's Avatar
vid vid is offline
Because it's 2015.
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Thunder Bay
Posts: 37,375
Quote:
Originally Posted by swimmer_spe View Post
The roads progressively gets worse north of Barrie. Except for the new construction of the 4 laning of 11 and 400, there is little new construction that is improving the roads.
The Terry Fox Highway (Nipigon to Thunder Bay) is, slowly but surely, being rebuilt. (It's Michael Gravelle's riding, and twinning that stretch is what he campaigned on in 1995.) It's the only major project I can think of. The Liberal government has started the process of upgrading highway 11/17 from Nipigon to Shabaqua as a grade-separated, twinned highway, but it will likely be 30 years before it takes shape.

And to be totally honest, a lot of people in Thunder Bay don't want Toronto to be ignored. We go there all the time, we build your transit vehicles (so investment in that area means more stability at our second largest private employer), it's just that we have a lot of difficulties up here and often feel that they're shrugged off by the south, mainly with comments like this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mister F View Post
I've been there. I've been on even more backroads highways, like 144 for example. They're no different from roads with similar traffic volumes in the south. There are many, many random regional and county roads in southern Ontario with more traffic than anything in the north. Simcoe County alone has at least a dozen two lane county roads that are busier than Highway 11 past North Bay. Between Ottawa and Windsor it's at least several hundred. And a lot of them aren't exactly in great shape.
The difference between Simcoe's county roads, and Northern Ontario's trunk highways—and I say this with utmost respect—is that in the south, is a 6 car pileup closes Highway 4, there are alternative routes to take. In Northern Ontario, is a 6 car pileup closes Highway 11/17, the detour is Via the United States and adds over 12 hours to the trip.

An exception needs to be made for this region because our highways are the only highway. We don't have a grid of back roads to fall back on. If our highway gets closed, people get stranded, sometimes for days. There have been many occasions in the past few years (and it seems to be becoming more frequent) where the main highways get washed out and take days or weeks to be repaired. We had to airlift a community to evacuate it last year because the only road leading to it washed out and stranded everyone. Between the communities of Pearl and Nipigon, there is no alternate route to cross this province by road, unless you have a really good off-road vehicle that can take the 45 km long detour through overgrown logging routes.

BTW, the 2 to 150 series highways are our trunk highways. In Northern Ontario, a back road highway is numbered 500- or 600- something. They're basically county roads, but the province has to maintain them because there is no county government up here.
__________________
Toronto & HamiltonThunder Bayother photos | my geofiction | random things | skyscraper diagrams
It's not about what you don't have—it's the little you're given, and how far you can run with it.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #53  
Old Posted May 17, 2014, 11:27 PM
ue ue is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Notleygrad, Albertastan
Posts: 8,718
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamaican-Phoenix View Post
Except as I and others have pointed out, it really isn't working.

Northern Ontario is easily the most ignored region of this gargantuan province, but as I and others have pointed out, the rest of Toronto outside the GTHA or adjoining satellite cities are also ignored a fair bit.


For sure, but there doesn't seem to be a large, concerted effort to secede like there (sort of) is for Northern Ontario. It doesn't seem to bother folks in Stratford or Cobourg enough that they have to be in the same province as Toronto.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #54  
Old Posted May 18, 2014, 12:44 PM
Mister F Mister F is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 2,189
Quote:
Originally Posted by vid View Post
The Terry Fox Highway (Nipigon to Thunder Bay) is, slowly but surely, being rebuilt. (It's Michael Gravelle's riding, and twinning that stretch is what he campaigned on in 1995.) It's the only major project I can think of. The Liberal government has started the process of upgrading highway 11/17 from Nipigon to Shabaqua as a grade-separated, twinned highway, but it will likely be 30 years before it takes shape.

And to be totally honest, a lot of people in Thunder Bay don't want Toronto to be ignored. We go there all the time, we build your transit vehicles (so investment in that area means more stability at our second largest private employer), it's just that we have a lot of difficulties up here and often feel that they're shrugged off by the south, mainly with comments like this:



The difference between Simcoe's county roads, and Northern Ontario's trunk highways—and I say this with utmost respect—is that in the south, is a 6 car pileup closes Highway 4, there are alternative routes to take. In Northern Ontario, is a 6 car pileup closes Highway 11/17, the detour is Via the United States and adds over 12 hours to the trip.

An exception needs to be made for this region because our highways are the only highway. We don't have a grid of back roads to fall back on. If our highway gets closed, people get stranded, sometimes for days. There have been many occasions in the past few years (and it seems to be becoming more frequent) where the main highways get washed out and take days or weeks to be repaired. We had to airlift a community to evacuate it last year because the only road leading to it washed out and stranded everyone. Between the communities of Pearl and Nipigon, there is no alternate route to cross this province by road, unless you have a really good off-road vehicle that can take the 45 km long detour through overgrown logging routes.

BTW, the 2 to 150 series highways are our trunk highways. In Northern Ontario, a back road highway is numbered 500- or 600- something. They're basically county roads, but the province has to maintain them because there is no county government up here.
Yes I'm aware that some areas have only one road. It always struck me as a little strange that there's only one road connecting east and west in this country. The thing is, an exception is already being made for the north. Like I said, it gets 5 times more highway spending per capita than the south. I'm really not sure what else you could want. By the way, twinning a highway doesn't solve the issue of no alternative routes. Freeways in southern Ontario get closed down fairly often in both directions when there's a bad snowstorm. Roads are inherently unreliable, making them bigger doesn't change that.

Newfoundland has the same issue - no alternatives to the Trans-Canada...and no Toronto to blame. I'm just responding to the belief that Toronto gets all the attention when the facts show otherwise, at least in terms of transportation.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #55  
Old Posted May 18, 2014, 5:23 PM
MolsonExport's Avatar
MolsonExport MolsonExport is offline
The Vomit Bag.
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: The Tropic of Sir Galahad
Posts: 29,341
Just a whole bunch of so-called have-not provinces to receive transfer payments. It will not happen. The creation of Provinces requires assent from all existing provinces. I just don't see Quebec being very interested in adding more English-dominant provinces to the federation.
__________________
The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness. John Kenneth Galbraith
We must always take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented. Sometimes we must interfere.Elie Wiesel
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #56  
Old Posted May 18, 2014, 11:15 PM
1overcosc's Avatar
1overcosc 1overcosc is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Kingston, Ontario
Posts: 8,088
Quote:
Originally Posted by MolsonExport View Post
I just don't see Quebec being very interested in adding more English-dominant provinces to the federation.
Quebec doesn't actually have to consent to adding more provinces.

The addition of a province requires the consent of two-thirds rounded-up of the existing provinces, with those two-thirds having to contain at least half the population.

Applied to the current Canada, that means at least 7 provinces, one of which must be either Ontario OR Quebec, but not necessarily both.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #57  
Old Posted May 18, 2014, 11:21 PM
1overcosc's Avatar
1overcosc 1overcosc is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Kingston, Ontario
Posts: 8,088
Quote:
Originally Posted by ssiguy View Post
There is an alternative...................instead of creating new provinces the province itself could merge some of the existing counties and give them more power in terms of taxation, transportation, planning etc.

There is no reason why there has to be so many different counties for no apparent reason. As an example merge Oxford/Elgin/Middlesex or Essex/Chatham-Kent/Lambton or Hamilton/Niagara/Halimand-Norfolk/Brant or Barrie/Grey/Musloka/Haliburton/Parry Sound or Waterlou/Perth/Guelph/Dufferin or Toronto/Durham/York/Peel. I'm not going to name them all but you get the idea.

This would actually reduce the bureaucracy and red tape without costing anything extra and could be cheaper. it would make for more effective planning and those areas could have more independence from Queen's Park and result in a less Toronto focused economic, political, and social policy.

This is sort of what BC has. For example Chilliwack/Abbotsford/Mission/Hope/Harrison/Agassiz all make up the Frazer regional District much like the GVRD.
That's what my idea is. Currently we have 4 levels of government:
1) Federal
2) Ontario
3) Upper-tier municipal (counties, regional municipalities, etc.)
4) Lower-tier municipal (cities, towns, townships, etc.)

My idea I mentioned last page is to replace 3) with a new subprovincial level, with some transfer of power away from 2) towards 3).

It's true that in most of Ontario's bigger cities we've consolidated levels 3) and 4) into a single level by creating single-tier cities (like Ottawa, Toronto, Hamilton, Kawartha Lakes, etc.) so my proposal would in many areas be adding a layer of government, it should be noted that studies have shown that in places where the 3rd) and 4th) tiers were merged, the size of bureaucracy actually increased faster than in those areas where they remained separate.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #58  
Old Posted May 18, 2014, 11:29 PM
1overcosc's Avatar
1overcosc 1overcosc is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Kingston, Ontario
Posts: 8,088
Quote:
Originally Posted by lio45 View Post
Why would that be a "big" problem?

This rural/urban divide is present everywhere...

BC manages to function in spite of Peace River having Conservative MPs while Saanich-Gulf Island has a Green MP...

I doubt the gap between Kingston and the rest of Eastern Ontario is actually close to, say, between Austin and rural Texas. Among other possible examples. Or San Francisco and CA's cowboy/oil country. The examples are endless... in Kingston's case, with our political system, it actually works decently well. Kern County federal votes are always wasted, and so are Austin's, while Kingston can have a MP from a party that's different from the other MPs of Eastern Ontario and therefore still have some weight in both provincial and federal parliaments.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mister F View Post
Peterborough is very liberal as well, but the riding has more countryside so conservatives get elected more often.
I should clarify, when I talk about Kingston's uniqueness from the surrounding area, I'm not just talking about electing a Liberal MP(P) while everyone around elects Tories. It's much deeper than that.

Highway 401 might as well be the Limit of the Universe for all Kingstonians know or care about anything happening north of it. There's very little ties of any sort between the city and the surrounding counties.

And Kingston doesn't just elect Liberals, the city, right down to its core fibre, is fundamentally a progressive city. Whereas Ottawa, for example, also elects Liberals, but has a strong fiscally conservative (and even socially conservative in some ways) streak in the city's culture.

Belleville just up the 401 is not much smaller than Kingston, it's a city as well, but its culturally, economically, and politically well integrated with the surrounding Eastern Ontario countryside, even though it does elect Liberals (although, like Peterborough, that's hidden by the riding mechanics).

Kingston is even fairly divorced from the influence of both Ottawa and Toronto--we don't really associate with them much despite their overwhelmingly size and proximity.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #59  
Old Posted May 19, 2014, 3:53 AM
vid's Avatar
vid vid is offline
Because it's 2015.
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Thunder Bay
Posts: 37,375
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mister F View Post
The thing is, an exception is already being made for the north. Like I said, it gets 5 times more highway spending per capita than the south.
We have five times the highway kilometres.

We don't have regional roads here. The province provides funding for those directly. If you really want to get an adequate comparison of how much it costs to maintain and upgrade our highways, versus those in the south, you need to merge the MTO's Southern Ontario highways budget with all of the upper-tier municipalities' county roads maintenance budgets.

Regardless, if a PC government is elected, you can be assured that that budget will be slashed by more than 80%. I honestly wouldn't put it past them to entirely cancel the Nipigon River Bridge and all construction work along 11/17, regardless of how far along it might be.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mister F View Post
I'm really not sure what else you could want.
We're getting what we want right now, it just takes time. The government's timelines of 30+ years to upgrade the expressway through Thunder Bay to a proper urban freeway is, however, unacceptable when that project was supposed to be completed in 1999.

Fortunately, we're not London. Their highways situation is even worse.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mister F View Post
By the way, twinning a highway doesn't solve the issue of no alternative routes. Freeways in southern Ontario get closed down fairly often in both directions when there's a bad snowstorm. Roads are inherently unreliable, making them bigger doesn't change that.
Twinned highways don't have regular head-on collisions causing death. Twinned highways have space to pass at all times, not just intermittently. Twinned highways can have higher speed limits. No highways in Northern Ontario currently have speed limits above 90km/h, but traffic travels at over 120km/h at most times. It's dangerous. A twinned highway would be safer, and an accident or washout wouldn't paralyze the region as easily as it currently does.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mister F View Post
Newfoundland has the same issue - no alternatives to the Trans-Canada...and no Toronto to blame. I'm just responding to the belief that Toronto gets all the attention when the facts show otherwise, at least in terms of transportation.
That doesn't change the fact that our highways, compared to those in Manitoba and Minnesota, are unsafe and slow.
__________________
Toronto & HamiltonThunder Bayother photos | my geofiction | random things | skyscraper diagrams
It's not about what you don't have—it's the little you're given, and how far you can run with it.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #60  
Old Posted May 19, 2014, 3:59 AM
vid's Avatar
vid vid is offline
Because it's 2015.
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Thunder Bay
Posts: 37,375
The fact that Northern Ontarians have to get into this argument over who is more deserving of a safe highways is probably the main issue behind any separatist sentiment. We shouldn't have to convince someone living in suburban Durham that we need a safer highway and then get "Well, Taunton Road is busier so fuck you!" as a response. The government finally responds to over 40 years of asking and demanding a better highway for this region and the south complains that we "cost too much".

We're not the ones who argued to the Queens Privy Council in London that we should remain in your province.
__________________
Toronto & HamiltonThunder Bayother photos | my geofiction | random things | skyscraper diagrams
It's not about what you don't have—it's the little you're given, and how far you can run with it.
Reply With Quote
     
     
This discussion thread continues

Use the page links to the lower-right to go to the next page for additional posts
 
 
Reply

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Regional Sections > Canada > Ontario
Forum Jump


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 6:44 PM.

     

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.