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  #141  
Old Posted Aug 29, 2017, 3:46 PM
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This aspect of the discussion kinda reminds me of how so many people have labelled Donald Trump a Nazi.

Now, to quote a famous line... I didn't serve with the Nazis. I didn't know the Nazis. And the Nazis were certainly no friends of mine. But I have a hell of a good idea of what the Nazis did. President Donald Trump may be a nasty reprehensible character in my book... but he's no Nazi.

In political discourse at the moment, there is a lot of "yeah, it's not as bad as (insert name of historical bad guy), but that's how it starts..."
I agree. It does seem like there is more of this type of "shortcutting" now. I'm not sure why (or whether my perception is even actually true). Perhaps so much of our political discourse takes place online where communication is so much faster and briefer?
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  #142  
Old Posted Aug 29, 2017, 4:06 PM
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I agree. It does seem like there is more of this type of "shortcutting" now. I'm not sure why (or whether my perception is even actually true). Perhaps so much of our political discourse takes place online where communication is so much faster and briefer?
Two things:
1) People are moving away from reading longer posts and excerpts. If your point isn't made in a line or two it'll be skipped, or at the very most skimmed. This feeds into the quicker, briefer narrative.

2) The internet has allowed people to silo themselves into echo chambers that more or less say things that they agree with. I've seen a big change in the past decade in online forums moving away from thought-based discussion to opinion-based discussion.
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  #143  
Old Posted Aug 29, 2017, 4:19 PM
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I've been trying to think about what might be the skeletons in the closets of our contemporaries, as viewed by people 50-100 years from now.

Perhaps some will be judged harshly for holding the view that boys are boys and girls and girls. And seen as backward for not letting their kids choose their own gender identity and treating them as gender-neutral at birth.

"Can you believe Justin Trudeau raised Ella-Grace as a girl from birth simply based on what she/he looked like biologically? He had her/him wear dresses and other pink clothes. He also had her/him wear her hair long, occasionally in braids and often done up with barrettes. She/he had no choice in the matter. Talk about gender brainwashing. Eeeeeeeeeewwww. No statue on Parliament Hill for him!"

I also think our era and those that came before may be judged harshly for our treatment of animals. Notably for eating them and also for not being generous enough in the "rights" that are afforded to them.
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  #144  
Old Posted Aug 29, 2017, 4:20 PM
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Adolf Hitler was a Bayern Munich supporter.

Wait a minute...

Pope Benedict XVI is a Bayern Munich supporter too!

I always had my suspicions about Pope Benedict........

Deutschland uber alles.
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  #145  
Old Posted Aug 29, 2017, 4:35 PM
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Voila. I'll leave it to other posters/readers to discern the nuance and context that I dishonestly omitted in my reply.

I'm in an irritable mood this morning. I apologize for belaboring my point and derailing the thread.
So why didn't you just quote me directly right from the start instead of modifying my quote to remove the word "outlook"? There's a difference between having a certain perspective reminiscent of someone else as opposed to literally acting the same way as someone else.

It's fair enough if you disagree with me. Like I said, reasonable people can disagree on this issue. But I don't know why you are so fixated on how I've expressed my opinion to the point where you are pretty well ignoring the matter at hand.

Now feel free to tell me once more why people who want to topple statues of early Canadian historical figures and rename buildings named after them are not in fact the same people using the same tactics toward the exact same ends as 红卫兵 circa 1967.
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  #146  
Old Posted Aug 29, 2017, 4:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
I've been trying to think about what might be the skeletons in the closets of our contemporaries, as viewed by people 50-100 years from now.

Perhaps some will be judged harshly for holding the view that boys are boys and girls and girls. And seen as backward for not letting their kids choose their own gender identity and treating them as gender-neutral at birth.

"Can you believe Justin Trudeau raised Ella-Grace as a girl from birth simply based on what she/he looked like biologically? He had her/him wear dresses and other pink clothes. He also had her/him wear her hair long, occasionally in braids and often done up with barrettes. She/he had no choice in the matter. Talk about gender brainwashing. Eeeeeeeeeewwww. No statue on Parliament Hill for him!"

I also think our era and those that came before may be judged harshly for our treatment of animals. Notably for eating them and also for not being generous enough in the "rights" that are afforded to them.
We really can only speculate on what future social mores might be. I have a feeling that the 2010s are sort of like the 1970s - a period where social boundaries that were tested in the previous decade get pushed a bit "too far" for the likes of many people - and I expect an even bigger social conservative backlash in the future, sort of like how the 1980s had a bit of a 1950s veneer to it.

I can kind of already see it brewing among my generation of early Millennials (born early 1980s) who will be at the height of their generational power by the 2020s. It's kind of like how baby boomers, who were the hippies of the 1960s/70s became the yuppies of the 80s and turned the clock back on social "progress". Recently, I went back to Ontario to hang with my old high school buddies. Over drinks, I asked them to give their unvarnished opinions on the social issues of our day.

Most of them invoked "negative rights" and acknowledged that people who are marginalized should be allowed to live the way they want to live. That's a common strain among people of our generation who were raised in non-religious households. However, they also opined that many of the issues that people on the social far left take as being "normal" are borderline transgressive, or, at the very least, misguided. For example, two of my friends believed that transgenderism was probably a form of undiagnosed mental illness. Unlike other mental illnesses, they argued that people who identified as transgendered should probably self-medicate (i.e. undergo gender conversion, if that will make them feel better, without soliciting the advice of a mental health professional), and use whatever bathroom they felt like, but that it was not something that should be celebrated, either.

Now, they're mostly white men, given that I grew up in Peterborough. But white people are more likely to study things like the social sciences at the graduate level (many of my friends did), where they are exposed to other cultural perspectives. I've asked these questions of other good friends of mine who are sons and daughters of visible minority immigrants (like me), many of whom studied STEM subjects and aren't exposed to critical thinking and testing one's bias on a social issue, and the unvarnished opinions they give are often even more socially "conservative" than my white friends. Few of them are "woke", as the saying goes.

That's another thing: as Canada becomes more of a country defined by immigrants, social conservatism will be on the rise. Another unacknowledged issue is that many people who are on the far left socially, but white, think that people of colour will somehow band together as a unifying bloc of progressiveness and support each other's issues because they have their visible minority status in common and are not white. As a "person of colour", I can tell you that that's completely delusional.

Last edited by hipster duck; Aug 29, 2017 at 5:36 PM. Reason: Left some brainstorming thoughts at the bottom.
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  #147  
Old Posted Aug 29, 2017, 5:30 PM
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Originally Posted by hipster duck View Post
For example, two of my friends believed that transgenderism was probably a form of undiagnosed mental illness. Unlike other mental illnesses, they argued that people who identified as transgendered should probably self-medicate (i.e. undergo gender conversion, if that will make them feel better, without soliciting the advice of a mental health professional), and use whatever bathroom they felt like, but that it was not something that should be celebrated, either.
I hope I'm not derailing this thread, but this is what I think, too, and I'm a GenXer. Totally laissez-faire about it--you can see how people who "transition" tend to be so much happier or at least relieved afterward, and that's wonderful for them--but I think it would be of great benefit to avail themselves of all of the help they can get from mental health professionals. One of the most important steps on the path to good mental health is the humbling acceptance that you have a problem and you need help. I know that from personal experience (anxiety).

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That's another thing: as Canada becomes more of a country defined by immigrants, social conservatism will be on the rise. Another unacknowledged issue is that many people who are on the far left socially, but white, think that people of colour will somehow band together as a unifying bloc of progressiveness and support each other's issues because they have their visible minority status in common and are not white. As a "person of colour", I can tell you that that's completely delusional.
Yep. I've seen the cognitive dissonance many times in person (never mind online, where it's rife). When the SJWs make their boiler-plate statement "as a white person of privilege I need to step back and let the voices of people of colour be heard" you can be sure that it is only certain voices with precisely the same viewpoints of said privileged people that they allow or want to "be heard." Their dumbfounded panic when the wrong things get said by the wrong sort of people of colour is a sight to behold.

Sometimes they turn cartwheels justifying things. While I think the alt-right types who slather all leftward people as, say, apologists for Islam are generally as ham-fisted as a bag of hammers, they sometimes, sometimes, do have a small point (that could be better made).
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  #148  
Old Posted Aug 29, 2017, 5:44 PM
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Originally Posted by hipster duck View Post
We really can only speculate on what future social mores might be. I have a feeling that the 2010s are sort of like the 1970s - a period where social boundaries that were tested in the previous decade get pushed a bit "too far" for the likes of many people - and I expect an even bigger social conservative backlash in the future, sort of like how the 1980s had a bit of a 1950s veneer to it.

I can kind of already see it brewing among my generation of early Millennials (born early 1980s) who will be at the height of their generational power by the 2020s. It's kind of like how baby boomers, who were the hippies of the 1960s/70s became the yuppies of the 80s and turned the clock back on social "progress". .
I saw this in living colour with some of my aunts and uncles. They grew up in the 60s and had teenagers in the 80s. Free love, drugs and skinny dipping at music festivals is awesome when you're the one doing it and it's 1966.

It's not so awesome when it's your teenaged daughter who wants to do it and it's 1988.
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  #149  
Old Posted Aug 29, 2017, 6:01 PM
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It's kind of like how baby boomers, who were the hippies of the 1960s/70s became the yuppies of the 80s and turned the clock back on social "progress".
About this, though. I lived through the 1980s, and the clock didn't really get turned back. Instead, what was radical in the 1960s solidified into orthodoxy, at least among the educated classes.

The election of Reagan signalled a retro backlash by conservatives ("hey, we're still here") and it's true that a whole bunch of the Woodstock generation abandoned the youthful optimism of the Age of Aquarius for naked materialism as they entered their thirties, but the gains mostly held, even if "progress" had stalled.

I think of the 1980s as a plateau rather than a reversal. And I think the same thing will happen as the Millennials gain prominence.
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  #150  
Old Posted Aug 29, 2017, 6:06 PM
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I didn't realize that, in the past, posters on this forum felt uncomfortable with expressing their disagreement. That hasn't been my experience at all.
I might be a noob but I've been lurking for some time, and while I will fully agree that people have always had zero issues expressing their opinions on building spires, urban area population trends, or the likelihood of IKEA opening in or the Jets returning to Winnipeg, until recently they seemed more reticent criticizing liberal orthodoxy when it came to social issues. Just my observation, perhaps I'm seeing a change that just isn't there.

What were you referring to when you said that "the quality of discourse on this forum just isn't what it used to be"?
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  #151  
Old Posted Aug 29, 2017, 6:07 PM
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I've asked these questions of other good friends of mine who are sons and daughters of visible minority immigrants (like me), many of whom studied STEM subjects and aren't exposed to critical thinking and testing one's bias on a social issue, and the unvarnished opinions they give are often even more socially "conservative" than my white friends. Few of them are "woke", as the saying goes.

That's another thing: as Canada becomes more of a country defined by immigrants, social conservatism will be on the rise. .
This virtually unavoidable reality is often vehemently denied.

The assurance with which they fully believe that the kids and grandkids of pretty devout Muslims from Pakistan, Catholics from the Philippines, Sikhs from India, etc., are all going to magically become Judy Rebicks, Naomi Kleins and Olivia Chows just by virtue of having grown up in Canada*, is nothing short of astonishing.

*In a society where the ambient openness to religious "quirks" is on the rise as opposed to on the decline.
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  #152  
Old Posted Aug 29, 2017, 6:18 PM
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About this, though. I lived through the 1980s, and the clock didn't really get turned back. Instead, what was radical in the 1960s solidified into orthodoxy, at least among the educated classes.

The election of Reagan signalled a retro backlash by conservatives ("hey, we're still here") and it's true that a whole bunch of the Woodstock generation abandoned the youthful optimism of the Age of Aquarius for naked materialism as they entered their thirties, but the gains mostly held, even if "progress" had stalled.

I think of the 1980s as a plateau rather than a reversal. And I think the same thing will happen as the Millennials gain prominence.
I think you're right. Many a 60s Flower Child became more conservative in their family lives with their own kids (do as I say, not as I did) but on a societal level very little in terms of liberties and freedoms was rolled back.

And I am 100% in agreement that this generation that was all about egalitarianism, collectivism and even socialism (to a degree) jumped head first into materialism and individualism. Smoking joints and watching porn movies in huge mansions with in-ground pools at the back and BMWs out front.

And the effect continues to this day as they massively enter retirement. Their newfound "values" compromised and prevented several decades of much-needed investment in our institutions and infrastructure. Our highways and bridges started falling apart, our schools were in disrepair, transit development stalled, public housing came to a halt, etc.

Things have only very recently begun to recover.
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  #153  
Old Posted Aug 29, 2017, 6:25 PM
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I hope I'm not derailing this thread, but this is what I think, too, and I'm a GenXer. Totally laissez-faire about it--you can see how people who "transition" tend to be so much happier or at least relieved afterward, and that's wonderful for them--but I think it would be of great benefit to avail themselves of all of the help they can get from mental health professionals. One of the most important steps on the path to good mental health is the humbling acceptance that you have a problem and you need help. I know that from personal experience (anxiety).



Yep. I've seen the cognitive dissonance many times in person (never mind online, where it's rife). When the SJWs make their boiler-plate statement "as a white person of privilege I need to step back and let the voices of people of colour be heard" you can be sure that it is only certain voices with precisely the same viewpoints of said privileged people that they allow or want to "be heard." Their dumbfounded panic when the wrong things get said by the wrong sort of people of colour is a sight to behold.

Sometimes they turn cartwheels justifying things. While I think the alt-right types who slather all leftward people as, say, apologists for Islam are generally as ham-fisted as a bag of hammers, they sometimes, sometimes, do have a small point (that could be better made).
I'm kind of similar too with regards to trans issues. Live and let live, but I do think it's not normal. I don't really see a future in which your physical body has nothing to do with your gender and everyone just sort of does whatever.

However, where I might differ is that I assume I'm on the wrong side of history here, and even if the vast majority of people are cis maybe it wouldn't be as strange to see trans people one day. I compare this to when say 50 years ago I might have been uncomfortable with gay people, but I would've been wrong and today it's not anything significant at all to me. Maybe I'm just behind the 8 ball on today's social issue.

********************

And yeah, it is funny watching the tumblr left's view on non-white people in the assumption that they will all be progressive and bound together. To me that's not just incorrect, but it's paternalistic too. Other cultures have every "right" to be conservative or racist, and it's not unusual when they are. The whole "only white people can be racist" can only be argued when looking at it in a white context.

********************

As far as the John A. Macdonald thing, I agree that it might just be too big a step too quickly. I understand the need to reconcile and decolonize, but going for the first Prime Minister strikes too close to the Canadian psyche to find many allies. In one way or another all of our early Prime Ministers oppressed First Nations here. This is unavoidable—we were colonizing. Are we meant to move to a post-colonial state by forgetting about these people and hiding the founding of Canada? This isn't a rhetorical question. But if that is the goal, this may not be the time for that yet.
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  #154  
Old Posted Aug 29, 2017, 6:31 PM
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As far as the John A. Macdonald thing, I agree that it might just be too big a step too quickly. I understand the need to reconcile and decolonize, but going for the first Prime Minister strikes too close to the Canadian psyche to find many allies. In one way or another all of our early Prime Ministers oppressed First Nations here. This is unavoidable—we were colonizing. Are we meant to move to a post-colonial state by forgetting about these people and hiding the founding of Canada? This isn't a rhetorical question. But if that is the goal, this may not be the time for that yet.
This is a straw man though. No one is proposing that Sir John A MacDonald's existence be stricken from the history books. People are only proposing that he not be commemorated in school names because it is inconsistent with school board policies regarding school naming. This isn't about white-washing history. In fact, if anything, this debate might renew interest in our history and understanding how we got to where we are today.
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  #155  
Old Posted Aug 29, 2017, 6:39 PM
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What were you referring to when you said that "the quality of discourse on this forum just isn't what it used to be"?
It seems like there was less name-calling, absurd analogies, straw men arguments, repetition of talking points, etc than now.

I'm probably just romanticizing the "good old days" though.
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  #156  
Old Posted Aug 29, 2017, 6:42 PM
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This is a straw man though. No one is proposing that Sir John A MacDonald's existence be stricken from the history books. People are only proposing that he not be commemorated in school names because it is inconsistent with school board policies regarding school naming. This isn't about white-washing history. In fact, if anything, this debate might renew interest in our history and understanding how we got to where we are today.
Fair enough, but are history books really enough? I don't really see a difference between school names and highway names or bank notes. The fact that this was proposed in a school system to me is irrelevant to the larger question of publicly honouring our founding fathers. Publicly commemorating these people I would guess is important to many Canadians. Even if it is just schools, placing restrictions on where we can honour our first Prime Minister may be seen as too big a reach in the decolonizing process.
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  #157  
Old Posted Aug 29, 2017, 6:46 PM
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So why didn't you just quote me directly right from the start instead of modifying my quote to remove the word "outlook"? There's a difference between having a certain perspective reminiscent of someone else as opposed to literally acting the same way as someone else.

It's fair enough if you disagree with me. Like I said, reasonable people can disagree on this issue. But I don't know why you are so fixated on how I've expressed my opinion to the point where you are pretty well ignoring the matter at hand.

Now feel free to tell me once more why people who want to topple statues of early Canadian historical figures and rename buildings named after them are not in fact the same people using the same tactics toward the exact same ends as 红卫兵 circa 1967.
I'm just going to leave this particular side discussion here. I've quoted your entire post so there is no confusion. I didn't mean to misrepresent what you posted. I don't think that I did misrepresent it. However, certainly, if I mislead or confused anyone reading this thread, I apologize. I've said my peace. I'm moving on.
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  #158  
Old Posted Aug 29, 2017, 6:51 PM
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Fair enough, but are history books really enough? I don't really see a difference between school names and highway names or bank notes. The fact that this was proposed in a school system to me is irrelevant to the larger question of publicly honouring our founding fathers. Publicly commemorating these people I would guess is important to many Canadians. Even if it is just schools, placing restrictions on where we can honour our first Prime Minister may be seen as too big a reach in the decolonizing process.
I can appreciate that position. I wonder if this would be an interesting compromise: instead of renaming schools or removing statutes of MacDonald's likeness, we erect plaques in front of each discussing difficult or problematic aspects of his history and legacy. It would acknowledge the historical perspectives of francophones, first nations, and metis, might renew interest in our history, and would still honour MacDonald as our first prime minister.
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  #159  
Old Posted Aug 29, 2017, 6:57 PM
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This is a straw man though. No one is proposing that Sir John A MacDonald's existence be stricken from the history books. People are only proposing that he not be commemorated in school names because it is inconsistent with school board policies regarding school naming. This isn't about white-washing history. In fact, if anything, this debate might renew interest in our history and understanding how we got to where we are today.
I really, really doubt it will, outside of maybe very small demographics like aboriginal youth.

Canada's history is off the radar for most people - especially but not only young people - and while this should not be construed as support on my part for retaining the statues of John A., to say it might lead to greater historical knowledge and understanding is hugely mistaken IMO.
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Old Posted Aug 29, 2017, 7:08 PM
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I really, really doubt it will, outside of maybe very small demographics like aboriginal youth.

Canada's history is off the radar for most people - especially but not only young people - and while this should not be construed as support on my part for retaining the statues of John A., to say it might lead to greater historical knowledge and understanding is hugely mistaken IMO.
For what its worth, I've recently read some material on Sir John A that I wouldn't have read without the current debate (and I live in Kingston and am bombarded daily with Sir John A statutes and plaques).
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