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  #181  
Old Posted Mar 22, 2014, 8:19 PM
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Originally Posted by New Brisavoine View Post
Subjective views again. In "your" world they are not as famous or influential as London's West End or Broadway, but hundreds of millions of other people think differently.
As I have already pointed out, London has some superb theatres' and a magnificent theatre land, and London has been at the creative hub of lots of world wide hits. The first outing for Les Miserables was at the Barbican, where it was panned by critics, which shows you how much critics know.

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Originally Posted by New Brisavoine
Irish playwriter Samuel Beckett or Romanian playwriter Eugène Ionesco thought so poorly of the London theatrical scene that they came to Paris to write their plays in French and stage them in Paris, which according to you cannot compare to London's West End of NYC's Broadway.
I suggest you read Samuel Beckett's life in relation to why he chose to live in Paris. London has seen plays by many great playwrights on it's stages and London and the UK have been home to many fine writers and playwrights, indeed it was George Bernard Shaw who eloquently made the case for the original National Theatre in London.

Samuel Beckett

And there were also many reasons for Romanian playwright Eugène Ionesco to settle in Paris. Paris being a very beautiful city with a lot of culture, it does have some wonderful theatres like many cities, although it doesn't quite match Broadway or indeed London's West End, which are among the best in the world and certainly the best in the Western World.

Eugène Ionesco

You can find info on Londons theatres on a number of sites

London's West End

London Theatre Venues

The Music Hall and Theatre History Site - Dedicated to Arthur Lloyd, 1839 - 1904

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Originally Posted by New Brisavoine
And Maria Callas, the greatest of all opera singers, lived in Paris, not London. She must have missed that London was the "most influential" opera scene in Europe.
Why should Maria Callas live in London, she wasn't British and can live wherever she so wishes. She certainly performed at the ROH in Covent Garden but that does necessitate that she live her permanently.

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Originally Posted by New Brisavoine
A sense of measure and humility wouldn't be too much to ask for.
The thread is about London, you asked what was so significant and I told in relation to a mix of history, culture, art, knowledge, business and diversity all mixed in to one. It is you who has been going on and on about Paris in a thread about London, yet as soon as I try to post the mix of attributes that I believe together make London unique you start to become ultra sensitive and critical. Why should I show any humility on a thread specifically about London, especially one in which others have gone on about the virtues of rival cities, I merely felt it was time to put the case as to why London was comparable with other great cities, or as you put it, to justify why London is up there with Berlin, if I recall correctly.

Last edited by Pretext; Mar 23, 2014 at 11:17 AM.
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  #182  
Old Posted Mar 22, 2014, 8:33 PM
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Originally Posted by New Brisavoine View Post
That's absolutely untrue. I'm actually preparing a list of European metro areas showing how they have fared in the economic crisis since 2008, based on the latest figures released by Eurostat, and so far the two European metro areas which have fared the best (or least bad) in this economic crisis have been Paris and Berlin (I haven't done the Scandinavian metro areas yet). London has had mediocre GDP growth compared to Paris and Berlin. The London economy barely grew by +0.5% between 2007 and 2011, the last year for which we have data, whereas during the same time period the Paris economy grew by +7% and the Berlin economy grew by +6%. Manchester, Birmingham, Leeds, Glasgow all had negative growth of -6% during the same time period.

When I have completed the list, I'll post it in the European economy - Économie européenne - Europäische Wirtschaft thread.
The UK is set for the fastest GDP growth in the G7, it is predicted to overtake the German Economy by 2030 to become the largest economy in Europe, and the fastest growing GDP in the UK by a long way is London.

I suggest you look at the London Gov Website to find a more realistic figure in relation to London growth.

GLA Economics Publications

British economy set to be fastest growing among G7

London set for biggest boost in GDP growth says Citigroup

Cebr's World Economic League Table 2013 shows China overtaking US in 2028; UK to overtake Germany ‘around 2030’

London's global appeal - Savills




Last edited by Pretext; Mar 22, 2014 at 8:47 PM.
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  #183  
Old Posted Mar 22, 2014, 8:43 PM
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Uh, a private real estate agent in London knows better than the European statistical agency Eurostat?

There have been three sorts of metropolitan areas in Europe in this crisis according to Eurostat.

Those that have performed much better than the rest: Paris and Berlin so far among those for which I have calculated GDP growth (again, I haven't done the Scandinavian metro areas yet, and we don't have data for Switzerland). Those that have performed not very well but not very bad either (most German metro areas outside Berlin, most French metro areas outside Paris, the Randstad, Brussels, and London), and those that have performed very bad (most British metro areas outside London, all Spanish and Italian metro areas, Antwerp).
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I suggest you look at the London Gov Website to find a more realistic figure in relation to London growth.
The Greater London Authority does not calculate GDP figures. Only Eurostat does that, based on the NUTS regions of Europe.
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  #184  
Old Posted Mar 22, 2014, 8:47 PM
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This thread gets closed in 5...4...3...
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  #185  
Old Posted Mar 23, 2014, 12:04 AM
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^ Why? I don't see why threads need to be closed because people are arguing, so long as people are enjoying the argument and it hasn't descended into a stream of ad hominems.

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Originally Posted by pico44 View Post
Implied. Previous poster said London and LA were the two most culturally important cities on earth, which is the type non sequitur one expects from a random poster on SSP. Then 10023 chimes in that he'd put NYC ahead of LA. So I suppose he could have meant London and New York were equal. Not saying it is definitely wrong, I'd just like to hear someone's justification for such a statement. Heck, I'd like to hear someone's justification for putting London next to Berlin.
No, I meant what I said, which was that New York was more culturally influential than LA. And I believe that's true. Even in the movies... more may be filmed in LA, but more are set in New York.
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  #186  
Old Posted Mar 23, 2014, 10:43 AM
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Originally Posted by New Brisavoine View Post
Uh, a private real estate agent in London knows better than the European statistical agency Eurostat?

There have been three sorts of metropolitan areas in Europe in this crisis according to Eurostat.

Those that have performed much better than the rest: Paris and Berlin so far among those for which I have calculated GDP growth (again, I haven't done the Scandinavian metro areas yet, and we don't have data for Switzerland). Those that have performed not very well but not very bad either (most German metro areas outside Berlin, most French metro areas outside Paris, the Randstad, Brussels, and London), and those that have performed very bad (most British metro areas outside London, all Spanish and Italian metro areas, Antwerp).

The Greater London Authority does not calculate GDP figures. Only Eurostat does that, based on the NUTS regions of Europe.
The ONS calculates economic figures and btw nobody is taking about other metros, we are talking about London which has seen and is seeing rapid economic growth.

The net effect is that from 2007 to 2011 London’s economy (GVA) grew by a nominal 12.4% compared to between 2.3% and 6.8% across other UK regions.

Office for National Statistics

London expansion accelerating sharply through 2013 and 2014 and the capital is expected to contribute almost a third of all UK growth in 2014

As I have already stated London has a heady mix of history, arts, culture, education/knowledge, diversity and business, and is growing fast, it has good support networks in relation to many types of business and is a world leader in many sectors. I suggest you accept the fact that London is one of the great cities along wth NYC, Tokyo and other such great cities, something that most people readily accept.

Last edited by Pretext; Mar 23, 2014 at 10:56 AM.
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  #187  
Old Posted Mar 23, 2014, 12:14 PM
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Originally Posted by New Brisavoine View Post
Subjective views again. In "your" world they are not as famous or influential as London's West End or Broadway, but hundreds of millions of other people think differently.
You are so obsessed with political correctness. It reminds me of a college course with people insisting that native Americans had a culture that was just as advanced as Europeans, only "different", despite the fact that most of them never invented a system of writing or the fucking wheel.

I doubt you'd find many cosmopolitan, educated Chinese or Indians who believe their local theater scenes (or any of their cities generally) are as globally influential as London or New York.
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  #188  
Old Posted Mar 23, 2014, 12:22 PM
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^ Why? I don't see why threads need to be closed because people are arguing, so long as people are enjoying the argument and it hasn't descended into a stream of ad hominems.
^ Threads get closed all the time when it descends into city vs city bickering, even if people aren't insulting eachother and are enjoying the argument. Heck, city vs city threads have always been fun (hence their popularity), but that doesn't mean they don't still get closed.
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  #189  
Old Posted Mar 23, 2014, 12:28 PM
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I doubt you'd find many cosmopolitan, educated Chinese or Indians who believe their local theater scenes (or any of their cities generally) are as globally influential as London or New York.
^ But you're only talking about English language theater. I mean, why would Chinese or Indian theatres be better at Shakespeare than theatres in Britain?

Most educated Chinese or Indians could care less about English language theater, with perhaps some exceptions.

10023 (and other anglophiles around here), I think you overstate how important your personal cultural tastes are to the world. Much of the eastern world really knows very little about nor takes interest in your theatre scenes. Now sure, you may see some Indian people coming to Times Square to watch 'The Lion King' but that's clearly different. If anything, I would say Hollywood is much, much, much, much, much important and recognizable to eastern societies (including educated ones) than anybody's theatre scenes.

It would be to the chagrin of theatre goers to find out that their "theatre" is much more provincial than they realize. Hence I can understand what New Brisavoine is trying to say to you guys, although I'm not sure why nobody is grasping it.
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  #190  
Old Posted Mar 23, 2014, 1:00 PM
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Hollywood movies are mass entertainment; they're more popular anywhere.

But if we're talking about cultural influence, let's not forget where Hollywood's approaches to acting and storytelling come from. In fact most of the best Hollywood actors and actresses have stage experience in New York, London or both.

I'd also stake some value on crossover appeal. Of course the average Chinese is more influenced by their own culture than ours - but are the Chinese more influenced by Western culture or vice versa? Clearly Western culture, at our current point in history, has more influence in other regions of the world than other cultures do in the West.
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  #191  
Old Posted Mar 23, 2014, 1:19 PM
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Most educated Chinese or Indians could care less about English language theater, with perhaps some exceptions.
The West End shows are seen by tourists from across the globe and are mainly light entertainment, there is also a lot of more serious theatre in London in respect of the National, RSC and numerous other such companies and theatres.

There are also foreign theatre companies who regularly travel to London to put on shows and there are foreign film festivals as well as a dedicated Asian theatre in respect of the Tara theatre in Wandsworth, and some Bollywood films even use British locations. As for Shakespeare an Indian version of the Tempest was produced at Shakespeare's Globe theatre last year. Whilst major Arts Centres such as the Southbank and Barbican embrace a lot of international culture, international productions and international artists. The British Film Institute (BFI) also screens films from around the world and holds foreign film festivals including an Indian Film Festival and London has always had close links to many countries across the world going back to it's days as mother city of a vast Empire and now as a major city within the Commonwealth of Nations, as well as being a major city within Europe. London being a very diverse city, and this diversity does indeed extend to film and theatre and the arts generally.

London is also a sporting hub as well as a cultural one, whether it be cricket, rugby, football, tennis, athletics or numerous other such sports. Indeed few cities can match London in terms of the facilities and scope of the sport available.

Sport in London

Last edited by Pretext; Mar 23, 2014 at 2:56 PM.
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  #192  
Old Posted Mar 23, 2014, 2:24 PM
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The ONS calculates economic figures
ONS only calculates regional GVA (gross value added). Eurostat is the only institution that calculates regional GDP, for all the the NUTS regions of Europe.
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The net effect is that from 2007 to 2011 London’s economy (GVA) grew by a nominal 12.4% compared to between 2.3% and 6.8% across other UK regions.

Office for National Statistics
Nominal GVA means it includes inflation. Once you deflate inflate (which has been high in the UK since 2008 due to the collapse of the sterling pound that year), the real growth of London is in fact closer to 0%.

For the records, between 2007 and 2011 the nominal GDP growth of the UK was +7.6%, but its real GDP growth (after deflating inflation) was -3.3%. Source is IMF: http://www.imf.org/external/pubs/ft/...CNGDP&grp=0&a=
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  #193  
Old Posted Mar 23, 2014, 2:32 PM
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but are the Chinese more influenced by Western culture or vice versa? Clearly Western culture, at our current point in history, has more influence in other regions of the world than other cultures do in the West.
We eat more Chinese food on a weekly basis than they eat Western food. Duh!
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  #194  
Old Posted Mar 23, 2014, 2:44 PM
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Originally Posted by New Brisavoine View Post
ONS only calculates regional GVA (gross value added). Eurostat is the only institution that calculates regional GDP, for all the the NUTS regions of Europe.

Nominal GVA means it includes inflation. Once you deflate inflate (which has been high in the UK since 2008 due to the collapse of the sterling pound that year), the real growth of London is in fact closer to 0%.

For the records, between 2007 and 2011 the nominal GDP growth of the UK was +7.6%, but its real GDP growth (after deflating inflation) was -3.3%. Source is IMF: http://www.imf.org/external/pubs/ft/...CNGDP&grp=0&a=
I am not really interested in all the NUTS regions, in terms of the UK we had 1.9% GDP growth last year, with much of the growth being led by London. Furthermore forecasts predict 2.7% growth in 2014 and even stronger long term growth.

London's Economy Today

London’s astonishing boom can lift the whole of Britain




Last edited by Pretext; Mar 23, 2014 at 3:08 PM.
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  #195  
Old Posted Mar 23, 2014, 3:19 PM
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I am not really interested in all the NUTS regions


Greater London is a NUTS region. So are Berkshire, Surrey, Kent and the other home counties.

You don't like to admit you're wrong, do you?
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  #196  
Old Posted Mar 23, 2014, 3:41 PM
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Originally Posted by New Brisavoine View Post


Greater London is a NUTS region. So are Berkshire, Surrey, Kent and the other home counties.

You don't like to admit you're wrong, do you?
I said I am not interested in all the NUTS regions. I am clearly interested in London and the UK.

As for the UK and particularly London it is enjoying very good economic growth and is forecast for substantial future growth.

Once again, in terms of the UK we had 1.9% GDP growth last year, with much of the growth being led by London. Furthermore forecasts predict 2.7% growth in 2014 and even stronger long term growth. The British economy is even predicted to overtake the German economy by 2030, by which time London's population is predicted to have grown to over 10 million.

London's Economy Today

London’s astonishing boom can lift the whole of Britain

It's generally recognised that London's economy is doing very well, and that even the UK Economy is managing significant growth despite the fact that some other regions are struggling when compared to London.

Last edited by Pretext; Mar 23, 2014 at 4:00 PM.
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  #197  
Old Posted Mar 23, 2014, 3:57 PM
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Originally Posted by New Brisavoine View Post
We eat more Chinese food on a weekly basis than they eat Western food. Duh!
Debatable. For example there are about 4,400 KFC locations in China, and if you count things like Coca-Cola, potato chips and chewing gum as "Western food", well...
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  #198  
Old Posted Mar 23, 2014, 4:13 PM
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I said I am not interested in all the NUTS regions. I am clearly interested in London and the UK.

As for the UK and particularly London it is enjoying very good economic growth and is forecast for substantial future growth.
Ok, here are the statistics from Eurostat (the only official GDP statistics that exist for English regions and counties).

Real GDP growth from 2007 to 2011:
- Greater London: +2.6%
- Buckinghamshire: +2.2%
- Kent: -2.1%
- Berkshire: -3.6%
- Surrey: -5.3%
- Essex: -5.8%
- Hertfordshire: -5.9%
TOTAL London + 6 home counties: +0.2%

For comparison, these are the figures for the Paris and Berlin metro areas.

Real GDP growth from 2007 to 2011:
- Val-de-Marne: +13.8%
- Seine-et-Marne: +8.0%
- Hauts-de-Seine: +7.5%
- City of Paris: +7.3%
- Seine-Saint-Denis: +6.7%
- Essonne: +5.8%
- Val-d'Oise: +4.9%
- Yvelines: +4.2%
TOTAL Paris Region: +7.3%

Real GDP growth from 2007 to 2011:
- Teltow-Fläming: +14.4%
- City of Potsdam: +14.2%
- Barnim: +10.2%
- City-State of Berlin: +7.7%
- Potsdam-Mittelmark: +6.7%
- Dahme-Spreewald: +3.8%
- Havelland: 2.7%
- Märkisch-Oderland: +2.5%
- Oberhavel: -1.0%
- Oder-Spree: -2.5%
TOTAL Berlin metro area: +7.2%

Source: http://epp.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/por.../data/database
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Old Posted Mar 23, 2014, 4:44 PM
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Originally Posted by New Brisavoine View Post
Ok, here are the statistics from Eurostat (the only official GDP statistics that exist for English regions and counties).

Real GDP growth from 2007 to 2011:
- Greater London: +2.6%
- Buckinghamshire: +2.2%
- Kent: -2.1%
- Berkshire: -3.6%
- Surrey: -5.3%
- Essex: -5.8%
- Hertfordshire: -5.9%
TOTAL London + 6 home counties: +0.2%

For comparison, these are the figures for the Paris and Berlin metro areas.

Real GDP growth from 2007 to 2011:
- Val-de-Marne: +13.8%
- Seine-et-Marne: +8.0%
- Hauts-de-Seine: +7.5%
- City of Paris: +7.3%
- Seine-Saint-Denis: +6.7%
- Essonne: +5.8%
- Val-d'Oise: +4.9%
- Yvelines: +4.2%
TOTAL Paris Region: +7.3%

Real GDP growth from 2007 to 2011:
- Teltow-Fläming: +14.4%
- City of Potsdam: +14.2%
- Barnim: +10.2%
- City-State of Berlin: +7.7%
- Potsdam-Mittelmark: +6.7%
- Dahme-Spreewald: +3.8%
- Havelland: 2.7%
- Märkisch-Oderland: +2.5%
- Oberhavel: -1.0%
- Oder-Spree: -2.5%
TOTAL Berlin metro area: +7.2%

Source: http://epp.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/por.../data/database
is it 2011? i must be a time traveller because where i am its 2014
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  #200  
Old Posted Mar 23, 2014, 4:46 PM
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is it 2011? i must be a time traveller because where i am its 2014
The last regional GDP data available are for the year 2011. Regional GDP data for the year 2012 will be published by Eurostat in February 2015.

For comparison, these are the figures for New York, Washington, Chicago, LA, and San Francisco.

Real GDP growth from 2007 to 2011:
- Trenton, NJ (MSA): +4.3%
- New York-Newark-Jersey City, NY-NJ-PA (MSA): +0.5%
- Allentown-Bethlehem-Easton, PA-NJ (MSA): -0.1%
- Bridgeport-Stamford-Norwalk, CT (MSA): -2.6%
- Kingston, NY (MSA): -2.7%
- East Stroudsburg, PA (MSA): -5.2%
- New Haven-Milford, CT (MSA): -5.5%
TOTAL New York CSA: +0.2%

Real GDP growth from 2007 to 2011:
- California-Lexington Park, MD (MSA): +17.7%
- Washington-Arlington-Alexandria, DC-VA-MD-WV (MSA): +7.2%
- Baltimore-Columbia-Towson, MD (MSA): +4.8%
- Winchester, VA-WV (MSA): +3.1%
- Hagerstown-Martinsburg, MD-WV (MSA): +0.7%
- Chambersburg-Waynesboro, PA (MSA): -4.5%
TOTAL Washington-Baltimore CSA: +6.5%

Real GDP growth from 2007 to 2011:
- Kankakee, IL (MSA): -0.3%
- Michigan City-La Porte, IN (MSA): -1.7%
- Chicago-Naperville-Elgin, IL-IN-WI (MSA): -2.1%
TOTAL Chicago CSA: -2.1%

Real GDP growth from 2007 to 2011:
- Oxnard-Thousand Oaks-Ventura, CA (MSA): -1.6%
- Los Angeles-Long Beach-Anaheim, CA (MSA): -5.5%
- Riverside-San Bernardino-Ontario, CA (MSA): -10.5%
TOTAL Los Angeles CSA: -5.9%

Real GDP growth from 2007 to 2011:
- San Jose-Sunnyvale-Santa Clara, CA (MSA): +12,2%
- San Francisco-Oakland-Hayward, CA (MSA): -3.4%
- Santa Rosa, CA (MSA): -6.5%
- Vallejo-Fairfield, CA (MSA): -8.3%
- Stockton-Lodi, CA (MSA): -8.7%
- Napa, CA (MSA): -10.2%
- Santa Cruz-Watsonville, CA (MSA): -13.6%
TOTAL San Francisco Bay Area CSA: +0.4%
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