80 John St N | 97m | 2 x 30 fl |Proposed

[Chronamut]

Originally Posted by TheRitsman

I will continue to argue that the city doesn't matter much from far away. If phone backgrounds matter that much to you guys, you can learn to draw.

There is a certain level of demand, and if we allowed 60 storey towers, there would be half the development which would mean less parking filled in, and many more people over a single point in the city. These towers and others do after job of getting density without completely blocking all light from the surface of the earth, and get more people downtown without overriding roads and transit more than they already will.

What we need is to fill in more of the city with a mix of this density and medium density, and to infill older neighbourhoods with middling density and gentle density such as duplexes and triplexes, with parking lot plazas having density to create a meeting place, the "third place".

I will pull better quality renders from the PDF presentation I receive from clerks tomorrow.

Well said

that being said as always I wish they would go for a bit more inspiring designs with these, but this is tucked away so whatever.

Also as for height - its my belief that a cities middle should be the highest and kinda peter away at the sides - so I'd be up for slightly taller in the core, esp say the eatons center redevelopment, but not everywhere - then it just looks like you stuck a buncha pencils in a glass and you get the views like in hong kong..



does light even PENETRATE into the street level at this point?

Personally I don't really care about how tall they are. I only care about how interesting they LOOK.



cool



awesome



amazing



inspiring

I mean seriously, our architecture is boring compared to almost everywhere else. We're stuck with precast crap with random windows and box like jutouts and picture frame elements - THAT is OUR "innovation". Pathetic.

We are also obsessed with box design - george st's one was suddenly beautiful compared to everything else because a) it's bright b) it's a BOX THAT BULGES - OMG and c) it has enough subtle elements to the tower
(not the podium - yawn) to actually make it look visually interesting from a distance - like that balcony white curve design..

Let's stop bitching about height and get back to commenting on whether the design is crappy or not lol. At least that's something we can ALL find common ground on.
This design for this proposal is very ho-hum. But as I said, it's nowhere noteworthy so whatever.

[atnor]

Originally Posted by davidcappi

Hey that's cool. It just sounds like you're trying to justify this to yourself more than anyone. I was like that too for a long time, but eventually I realized that Hamilton at its core is not a real city but an isolationist suburban region with a massive case of self loathing (your comment about allowing gentle density within residential neighbourhoods not being "popular" reinforces this - people in Hamilton want to live in houses, and they don't want apartments anywhere near them)

Nobody here is claiming that Toronto allowing unlimited heights would increase affordability, but it does reveal how ignorant you are regarding development in Toronto, specifically outside of the downtown core, but I guess it's hard to expect more when most Hamiltonians relationship with Toronto extends from the Union bus terminal to the rom and back.

And Toronto at it’s core isn’t a real city but an isolationist urban region with a massive case of conceitedness. Your comment about how it’s hard to expect more from hamiltonians is proof of this.

[davidcappi]

And Toronto at it’s core isn’t a real city but an isolationist urban region with a massive case of conceitedness. Your comment about how it’s hard to expect more from hamiltonians is proof of this.

Maybe, but at least I can take the subway to Ikea and walk to get groceries. The deep rooted envy and resentment Hamilton has towards other GTA cities is the number one hinderance to its success, but go off!

It wasn't until I worked for the government and got to travel literally all over the province that I realized just how far behind Hamilton is compared to where it thinks it is. For some reason Hamilton thinks it's the only downtown that's working on improving itself, but cities like London, Waterloo and Kingston have all done more, spent more $ to bring their own respective visions to life. Hamilton, meanwhile, wants to stand on a table and call itself tall without actually doing anything.

[Chronamut]

Originally Posted by davidcappi

Maybe, but at least I can take the subway to Ikea and walk to get groceries. The deep rooted envy and resentment Hamilton has towards other GTA cities is the number one hinderance to its success, but go off!

It wasn't until I worked for the government and got to travel literally all over the province that I realized just how far behind Hamilton is compared to where it thinks it is. For some reason Hamilton thinks it's the only downtown that's working on improving itself, but cities like London, Waterloo and Kingston have all done more, spent more $ to bring their own respective visions to life. Hamilton, meanwhile, wants to stand on a table and call itself tall without actually doing anything.

...honestly, why do you still come here if you loathe this city so much..? Last I checked you stated you were moving to toronto and thus weren't going to post here anymore.. you honestly NEVER have anything positive to say about hamilton, and you don't live here anymore - so why keep commenting and talking down to people here? I don't get it. That's not a personal attack btw - I just don't get why you.. do what you do here.

Just enjoy living in toronto - clearly that's a real city to you. And no I have no toronto envy whatsoever.. and no im not overcompensating or anything.. nor do i resent Toronto's development in the slightest.. people are free to think what they want, I just think it should kinda be more centered around ones own city though.

Personally I don't care if hamilton is tall or not - I just care if it functions well as a city and has buildings that look nice - some with fusions of heritage and others that have more well thought out modern developments.

[davidcappi]

I don’t loathe Hamilton. I think it has a lot of potential and could become a really spectacular place if it stops getting in its own way and learns to work as part of a larger network or regions within the gta instead of acting like it can do everything on its own and turning its back on literally every other Ontario municipality, existing like it’s an island nation hundreds of miles away from everything else.

Hamiltons situation is not unique. Every downtown in Ontario, and to a larger extent, in North America has seen the urban renewal and loss of industry that Hamilton has. It could learn a lot from these places and how they’ve bounced back, but it would rather squander its potential through poor policy decisions and bad government.

I want Hamilton to succeed but the reality is (as someone mentioned in one of the other threads) Hamilton’s success is directly tied to and correlates with the success of Toronto, and it’s surrounding cities. It needs to stop acting like it isn’t 45 minutes down the road from Toronto and learn to play the cards it’s been dealt to it’s advantage.

[Chronamut]

Originally Posted by davidcappi

I don’t loathe Hamilton. I think it has a lot of potential and could become a really spectacular place if it stops getting in its own way and learns to work as part of a larger network or regions within the gta instead of acting like it can do everything on its own and turning its back on literally every other Ontario municipality, existing like it’s an island nation hundreds of miles away from everything else.

Hamiltons situation is not unique. Every downtown in Ontario, and to a larger extent, in North America has seen the urban renewal and loss of industry that Hamilton has. It could learn a lot from these places and how they’ve bounced back, but it would rather squander its potential through poor policy decisions and bad government.

I want Hamilton to succeed but the reality is (as someone mentioned in one of the other threads) Hamilton’s success is directly tied to and correlates with the success of Toronto, and it’s surrounding cities. It needs to stop acting like it isn’t 45 minutes down the road from Toronto and learn to play the cards it’s been dealt to it’s advantage.

Sadly hamilton has a lot of pride as being one of the first cities in the region and values its independence - and its grit - and a lot of the bottleneck occurs on the citys political end.

And you can't blame hamiltons animosity towards Toronto - for decades torontonians sneered at hamilton as the "dirty" city until they learned of the lower prices here.

I don't think hamilton thinks it is unique - we know there are rustbelt cities all over that are doing what we do - I think hamilton just wants to do it its own way, even if it trips and stumbles along the way. It wants to say that whatever it achieved it did it on its own, and I don't think that's a terrible goal to have. Yes if we considered ourself a part of the GTA things might be easier, but the point is that Hamilton doesn't want to be. It wants to be its own thing.

We shall see how time shines light on that. We haven't turned a blind eye entirely to toronto - we still open our doors for torontonians to live here - and we still welcome toronto developers to build here and open up businesses here.

[TheRitsman]

Ah Hamilton, would meet it's potential if only there were 90 storey towers.

Skyscrapilton.

[Chronamut]

Originally Posted by TheRitsman

Ah Hamilton, would meet it's potential if only there were 90 storey towers.

Skyscrapilton.

Why stop there? I won't be content until a tower scrapes the ozone layer!

[TheRitsman]

Originally Posted by Chronamut

Why stop there? I won't be content until a tower scrapes the ozone layer!

While were at it, build a space elevator. We'd be famous I tells ya.

[ScreamingViking]

Originally Posted by TheRitsman

While were at it, build a space elevator. We'd be famous I tells ya.

Nah. Truly go where no-one has gone before and build an elevator to the Earth's core. Fits perfectly with our steel heritage, and will warm the cockles of those uninterested in what lies beyond the heavens.

[Chronamut]

Originally Posted by ScreamingViking

Nah. Truly go where no-one has gone before and build an elevator to the Earth's core. Fits perfectly with our steel heritage, and will warm the cockles of those uninterested in what lies beyond the heavens.

Now now we can't disturb the underground lizard overlords

[atnor]

Originally Posted by davidcappi

Maybe, but at least I can take the subway to Ikea and walk to get groceries. The deep rooted envy and resentment Hamilton has towards other GTA cities is the number one hinderance to its success, but go off!

It wasn't until I worked for the government and got to travel literally all over the province that I realized just how far behind Hamilton is compared to where it thinks it is. For some reason Hamilton thinks it's the only downtown that's working on improving itself, but cities like London, Waterloo and Kingston have all done more, spent more $ to bring their own respective visions to life. Hamilton, meanwhile, wants to stand on a table and call itself tall without actually doing anything.

Who the hell is envious or resents Toronto or the GTA? I think you’re projecting my friend. In Hamilton I can afford property, a nice car, drive to IKEA and the grocery store without facing gridlock. Also steps away from nature and urban environments. Great place to live and grow a family. Because we don’t have tonnes of skyscrapers or a sub terrain transit system doesn’t make me envious of Toronto.

[davidcappi]

n Hamilton I can afford property, a nice car, drive to IKEA and the grocery store without facing gridlock. Also steps away from nature and urban environments. Great place to live and grow a family.

sounds like the ideal suburban existence

[Innsertnamehere]

Originally Posted by davidcappi

sounds like the ideal suburban existence

Hamilton is possibly the most urban mid sized city on the continent. It’s no Toronto, but I mean Toronto is one of the largest and most important cities on the planet.

How many other cities of 600k have such a wide variety of urban neighbourhoods as Hamilton? Sure it’s fairly car dependant but that’s the standard for cities of this size, and is actually pretty transit oriented by that standard. The B line has very strong frequencies for a mid sized city. Tons of people live in Hamilton without a car, but it’s a low cost enough city that most can afford one. Which isn’t the worst thing. Toronto has incredible amenities, but is extremely expensive to the point where it’s difficult to build a life there truly. You need a good professional job to have anything resembling a typical western standard of life. I have friends paying as much for their 1+den apartment rent a 30 minute subway ride from downtown as I pay on my detached home mortgage, and who actively question if they’ll ever be able to own a condo or have kids. And they have well above median incomes.

[davidcappi]

How many other cities of 600k have such a wide variety of urban neighbourhoods as Hamilton? Sure it’s fairly car dependant but that’s the standard for cities of this size, and is actually pretty transit oriented by that standard. The B line has very strong frequencies for a mid sized city. Tons of people live in Hamilton without a car, but it’s a low cost enough city that most can afford one. Which isn’t the worst thing. Toronto has incredible amenities, but is extremely expensive to the point where it’s difficult to build a life there truly. You need a good professional job to have anything resembling a typical western standard of life. I have friends paying as much for their 1+den apartment rent a 30 minute subway ride from downtown as I pay on my detached home mortgage, and who actively question if they’ll ever be able to own a condo or have kids. And they have well above median incomes.

No arguments from me there, though I think your assumption of Hamilton's importance is greatly overstated. I'd give that title to KW if we're talking about Ontario or Canada, and further if we're including the US, cities like Portland, Atlanta, Cincinnati, Frisco and Rochester deserve to be a part of that conversation.

I just think it's important to recognize that the cost gap between Hamilton and Toronto is narrowing, and quickly. A quick scan of padmapper shows the average price of a 1 bedroom apartment in Hamilton to be between 1400 up to 1800+ for something that has modern amenities in the unit (think dishwasher, central air, in suite laundry)

The idea of Hamilton being an inexpensive haven for renters, or even home buyers at this point is losing its credibility. I know of a new build in the north end that recently sold for north of $1M. Even junky houses in the Hammer that need at least 100K of renovations to be considered desirable are selling for crazy inflated prices. I don't think anyone is suggesting that building skyscapers will somehow solve affordability, but I get the sense that a lot of people's impressions of Hamiltons affordability are rooted in the not so distant past (think 5/10 years)

I guess it's also just a difference of lifestyles - plenty of people raise children in Toronto and other cities around the world without owning property, let alone a detached house with a yard and a two car driveway. The two are not mutually exclusive. That is a cultural hurdle we need to cross as a society. As a kid who spend a good chunk of their childhood living in an apartment, I'm always confused why people say they can't raise kids in the city without owning a home. I suppose it also has to do with a difference of values. I value being able to walk everywhere and live without a car. I love living near a robust transit system and close to a variety of jobs in my field which don't exist outside of major urban centres, and I'm ok paying for those privileges. I lived car free in Hamilton for almost 10 years and it was tough, even living downtown in a "walkable neighbourhood" + years of commuting to Toronto wears you down like you wouldn't believe. You ultimately spend so much time in transit that you don't really get to enjoy either city.

Covid has helped level the playing field for renters in Toronto with 1 plus dens going for as low as 1650 (I'm currently trying to secure a lease in one now) but it hasn't had the same effect in Hamilton. This is only temporary and will change as the pandemic subsides over the next 1.5/2 years, but it's impressive to see how much control renters have when it comes to negotiating good deals right now.

What antor described as their reasons for living in the city are fair, but you can apply those same tests to literally any city in Ontario and you'll get the same results. It doesn't matter if it's Hamilton, London, Peterborough or Belleville. They all offer affordable housing (compared to the GTA), access to greenspace and good schools.

My only point was that negotiating heights is an excellent way to extract community benefits (see $$$$$) from these projects to serve a greater good. What the zoning of downtown does is eliminates the potential of those negotiations from happening.

[Innsertnamehere]

I agree it’s getting much more expensive, but it’s still the cheapest place to live that’s still an hour or so from Downtown Toronto.

Yea Hamilton is a mid sized city, but I was referencing how urban it is for a sub-1 million population ish size city that it is.

Hamilton’s uniqueness to me is it’s affordability, urban atmosphere (really unmatched by any other southern Ontario city), and central location that is still easily accessible to the GTA. I have an extensive friend group in Toronto and travel between the two regularly and can do it in as little as 40 minutes if I’m visiting friends on the west end of downtown. It’s barely longer than some of the subway rides I used to take back when I lived in Toronto. (Though minus the ability to drink since I have to drive, which admittingly is a pretty big detractor). The access to the GTA while paying southern Ontario real estate costs is the deal maker to me. My job is in Burlington and pays GTA salaries while getting something closer to southern Ontario cost of living.

Yes, new build 1 beds in Hamilton seem to be renting for barely less than toronto now, which is nuts to me. I agree that’s a temporary thing though and Toronto’s rents will skyrocket again in a couple of years.

[Chronamut]

Originally Posted by Innsertnamehere

I agree it’s getting much more expensive, but it’s still the cheapest place to live that’s still an hour or so from Downtown Toronto.

Yea Hamilton is a mid sized city, but I was referencing how urban it is for a sub-1 million population ish size city that it is.

Hamilton’s uniqueness to me is it’s affordability, urban atmosphere (really unmatched by any other southern Ontario city), and central location that is still easily accessible to the GTA. I have an extensive friend group in Toronto and travel between the two regularly and can do it in as little as 40 minutes if I’m visiting friends on the west end of downtown. It’s barely longer than some of the subway rides I used to take back when I lived in Toronto. (Though minus the ability to drink since I have to drive, which admittingly is a pretty big detractor). The access to the GTA while paying southern Ontario real estate costs is the deal maker to me. My job is in Burlington and pays GTA salaries while getting something closer to southern Ontario cost of living.

Yes, new build 1 beds in Hamilton seem to be renting for barely less than toronto now, which is nuts to me. I agree that’s a temporary thing though and Toronto’s rents will skyrocket again in a couple of years.

It's great to live in hamilton in an apartment if you're grandfathered in - 2 bedroom for less than 800 a month.. I'm not moving.. ever. Hahaha..

[davidcappi]

urban atmosphere (really unmatched by any other southern Ontario city),

This kind of hits the nail on the head for me. People like Hamilton because they want the urban look and feel but they want a suburban lifestyle.

[Chronamut]

Originally Posted by davidcappi

This kind of hits the nail on the head for me. People like Hamilton because they want the urban look and feel but they want a suburban lifestyle.

And what's wrong with that? Best of both worlds really - city life, cozy feel.

[Katrillion]

This is a really great conversation to be having. I'm glad to see others like TheRitsman follow the same understanding of city building and equity. Often I found myself avoiding posting on SSP because there does seem to be a strong "it needs to be taller" sentiment among many folks. In certain circumstances, it does make sense to go taller but Canada's building industry is completely flawed and mainly benefits the developer. There are not 1500 Hamiltonians searching for 1-bedroom shoeboxes. Many of these will cater to people beyond our city boundaries, like Torontonians or mysterious corporations filed in Panama.

I have no problem with the 30-storey limit. What annoys me is that the developers are all reaching for 30-storey's exactly with no height differentiation. That's because they need to maximize profit and cram as many units as possible on their site. It's not only the developer's fault, we speculate properties to be of their highest and best value thus increasing prices. Many of you already know these things, of course.

I really do think we are at a point where we can make innovative policy changes to the way we build not found anywhere in Canada. It has to be anti-development in the traditional sense (the way we currently build). Period. In other words, thoughtful, integrative, and context-specific uses in a building envelope that matches. Instead, what we are getting is sterile glass wall retail + podium with amenities + tower(s) with 80% 1-bedrooms on each and every lot in the downtown core. Development shouldn't be one-size-fits-all. Fortunately, we can see this type of development (and commitment to our community) with developers such as CoreUrban. So, why can't we expand this on a large-scale?

Cheers!