PITTSBURGH | Development Rundown II

[greg42]

Originally Posted by BrianTH

Of course everything is relative. These days, nicer buildings in good locations all over the City are getting well over $2.00/sqft. At $1100 for 650 sqft, you are already down to about $1.69/sqft. At $950 for 650 sqft, you'd be looking at around $1.46/sqft. It is indeed going to be quite hard for a developer to justify going that far down, but I'd still suggest that at $1.69 you are in fact doing much better than at well over $2.

Well. If places are going for over $2, and you get $1.69, yeah, I suppose if those are the numbers, then those are the numbers. The rent is too damn high! Haha. The new reality of rent. Although, at least the high rent spurs a lot of construction/conversion.

[Brentsters]

Maybe I'm not aware of some things, but I wouldn't say a "ton" happens in those places beyond the Christmas market and ice skating, which obviously wouldn't be replicated blocks away. People still pass through it to get their burrito, but they're not hanging out.

Again, does that justify the cost of salt damage?

[greg42]

Originally Posted by BrianTH

Tons of stuff happens in Market Square over the winter, PPG Place over the winter . . . maybe that is because they are not "passive parks," but then the question would be why does this have to be a passive park?

Yeah, I'm not sure how Mellon Square is different than those. Because OMG the hill (and thus steps)?

I did walk through Market Square last week and it was covered in packed snow. Somehow we still walk through it.

[BrianTH]

Originally Posted by Brentsters

Maybe I'm not aware of some things, but I wouldn't say a "ton" happens in those places beyond the Christmas market and ice skating, which obviously wouldn't be replicated blocks away.

So why not something else like that? I still like the idea of Market Square as a food truck area. Hold a week-long Valentine's Day festival with shops to buy gifts, music, ice carving demonstrations, etc. Do lunch-time snow-shoe classes.

Cities all over Canada, Europe, and so on confront this problem, and have figured out how to activate parks in winter. I'm sure there are no end of ideas we could steal. Yes, it will never be quite like summer, but we don't have to simply give up.

[DKNewYork]

Originally Posted by Urbana

As much as I am glad this parcel is being developed, this building is not going to age well at all.

The façade resembles that of the Dream Hotel here in Manhattan. The Dream has large balconies behind the façade screen.

https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8616/...28dc0bf8_m.jpg

[Brentsters]

Those are all great ideas, but they could be done in any number of other plazas that aren't being used over the winter...they're not being done there either. So these are a lot of nice ideas that could take place all over downtown, but the only thing I'm hearing would happen at mellon square is some people might take the 20 seconds walk through it.

Also keep in mind this is the same plaza that suffered for years because of maintenance and upkeep problems.

[Brentsters]

I'll add that I'm all for maximizing park usage...they're some of city's best assets. But absent any real supply and demand issues for winter park activities downtown, I'll defer to the park conservancy's expertise...especially given their pretty great track record.

[BrianTH]

Originally Posted by Brentsters

Those are all great ideas, but they could be done in any number of other plazas that aren't being used over the winter...they're not being done there either.

There are really only two comparable spaces Downtown--PPG Place, which does the ice rink all winter, and Market Square. Market Square is great for some of this sort of stuff, but why not rotate events with Mellon Square. I believe rotating events is standard best practices in winter park programs.

And some other things, like food trucks, actually make the most sense there. Particularly with all the new development going on there, we've got an opportunity to make this a more interesting, active part of Downtown, so why ignore it all winter?

Also keep in mind this is the same plaza that suffered for years because of maintenance and upkeep problems.

Yeah, but we just spent a bunch of money renovating it. Did we not prioritize fixing these problems? Because that would seem like a mistake.

[BrianTH]

Originally Posted by Brentsters

I'll defer to the park conservancy's expertise...especially given their pretty great track record.

Their expertise is in park restoration, not park programming or park management in general.

[Brentsters]

You're creating a supply/demand issue that currently does not exist. If market square had regular winter programming, then it might be time to take another look at the cost benefit. But that type of winter programming is largely non-existent.

So you want to take a pretty tight, newly restored plaza with planters and fountains all over and park a bunch of trucks on it? Surrounding the periphery with food trucks sounds good to me, but driving trucks through it seems like a pretty good way to start chipping away at it.

[Brentsters]

They work in projects and programming, so I'd say they are qualified to make the call. At least more than anyone commenting here.

[PGHFan]

I think if you say the park conservancy uses "best practices" that will win the day.

[BrianTH]

Originally Posted by Brentsters

Surrounding the periphery with food trucks sounds good to me

Right, trucks on the outside, maybe even close part of Oliver during midday to provide more truck spaces. Use the park itself for dining space, maybe music, maybe some vendor carts. Heck, an enterprising sort could do table service. Winter, some days people might head inside, other, nicer, days they might linger, just like I see in Market Square.

You're creating a supply/demand issue that currently does not exist.

Core demand would come from office workers, residents, hotel visitors . . . including from all the new developments/projects around and near Mellon Square. Note Market Square was pretty dead until they re-did it and then programmed it. People want things to do Downtown, and you can't look at a closed space with nothing going on and assume that means no one wants anything else.

Again, this is not a novel idea. Canadians, Germans, and so on aggressively use their city parks in winter. All the same basic dynamics apply in winter: give some people something cool to see or do right where they are going to be anyway, and they will come. Then more people will come to see what is going on. And more vendors will want to come too.

Of course maybe Mellon Square is so fragile it can't be used that way. That would be a real shame, and it would mean the renovation was a misused opportunity. But lack of demand? I highly doubt it.

[Brentsters]

Never said that. I do think their collective knowledge and experience is likely greater than anyone's in this conversation. And the parks are undoubtedly better now than they were without the conservancy. I'd like to know examples of what you mean though.

I still haven't heard any examples of what people are realistically being denied, other than they can't walk through mellon square during these months. When snowshoeing 101 and ice sculpting are double booked at market square, then we can re-explore if the costs are worth it.

[greg42]

Hertz Investments has stopped trying to sell Gateway Center:

http://www.bizjournals.com/pittsburg...t.html?ana=twt

Hope that link works without paywall. I don't have a sub anymore but I can read anything they post on Twitter.

Anyway so last year they were soliciting bids and had supposedly plenty of interest but they've decided not to sell. Interesting I never really realized that Gateway Center was considered class B space. Makes sense but I hadn't really thought of it. It's not really like anything too significant would have happened if it sold I suppose.

Cue the lament for the long lost neighborhood that used to be there. ;-)

[BrianTH]

Originally Posted by Brentsters

I still haven't heard any examples of what people are realistically being denied, other than they can't walk through mellon square during these months. When snowshoeing 101 and ice sculpting are double booked at market square, then we can re-explore if the costs are worth it.

Then why have a park there at all? Screw it, let's build a useful building on top of the garage, since Market Square has Downtown covered for parks.

[Brentsters]

I know you refuse to concede anything here, but I think this conversation has run its course. I hope that one day the square is full of winter activities, but that's not happening this winter. You should write them with your ideas for next year.

[daviderik]

I wonder how much it would have cost when they were renovating Mellon Square to add thermo heating under the terrazzo. Problem solved. One million or more, they probably never do it. Too late anyways. Speaking of restoration. I wish they would have taken the big grass area out of the design. It would have made the square more useful I think. Now we just have to keep off the grass half the year and Snow the other half.

[eschaton]

Eyeball report on a small project today.

I had noticed getting of my bus on Liberty they were working on a small historic building for quite some time. Took a closer look. The building in question is 955 Liberty Avenue (where the Chinese restaurant used to be). The owner listed on the building permit is Sehr Abodes LLC, which makes me believe this is an apartment (or possibly Condo) conversion. Certainly they are gutting the building.

This is a double-width (42'), four-story building, so I'm guessing at minimum they will have six apartments. Potentially more, however, as the condo building next door (which is taller, but also four stories, and the same width) has 14 units. That would require apartments which overlooked Exchange Way of course. I wouldn't have an issue with this, but I know some people would.

[Urbana]

New planning presentation is up.

http://apps.pittsburghpa.gov/dcp/sch...ion-65-692.pdf

Lots of new renderings of the Saks site.