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  #121  
Old Posted Apr 17, 2018, 6:57 PM
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It's too bad the Irish language couldn't persist longer in North America, in my opinion. When I lived in New England, I once knew a local (he was in his 30s in age) from Massachusetts who told me his grandmother who passed away not too long ago still spoke Irish (and thus the language was still within living memory to him) and lamented the fact that it was not passed on to him, since he'd have loved to have learned it as a kid.
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  #122  
Old Posted Apr 17, 2018, 7:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eschaton View Post
Wiki actually has a rankable list of American surnames (as of 2000). The list allows you to see what percentage of each of the top names is each race. Discounting Hispanic surnames:

Smith - 22% black
Johnson - 34% black
Williams - 46% black
Brown - 34% black
Jones - 38% black
Miller - 10% black
Davis - 31% black
Wilson - 25% black
Anderson - 18% black
Interesting how in the US, Lee is evenly split between white (40%), black (17%) and Asian (38%). It's 2000 data so I wonder if more Lees are Asian these days in the US?

My impression in Canada is that these days, Lee is strongly associated with Asian- rather than Anglo-Canadians.

My typical image of an American "Lee" is a white/British Isles-descent Southerner. My image of a Canadian "Lee" is an Asian Vancouverite or Torontonian.
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  #123  
Old Posted Apr 17, 2018, 7:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Capsicum View Post
It's too bad the Irish language couldn't persist longer in North America, in my opinion. When I lived in New England, I once knew a local (he was in his 30s in age) from Massachusetts who told me his grandmother who passed away not too long ago still spoke Irish (and thus the language was still within living memory to him) and lamented the fact that it was not passed on to him, since he'd have loved to have learned it as a kid.
Boston had huge numbers of Irish immigrants and that immigration continued even in the 20th century. And since they made up such a large percentage of the population and many neighborhoods had an "Irish" character Irish language probably held out longer than elsewhere.

A lot of people don't seem to realize this but Irish were usually pretty dispersed and their concentrations were really just little clusters, not big enclaves. The Irish in Chicago for example were much more dispersed than say the Germans and Poles. Boston is an exception among major US cities because they remained the dominant white ethnic group.
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  #124  
Old Posted Apr 17, 2018, 9:27 PM
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Boston always had a large Irish community, but NYC also did in the 19th century. Google "Dead Rabbits" and "Gangs of New York".
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  #125  
Old Posted Apr 17, 2018, 9:31 PM
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70 years ago, between NYC and London NYC was clearly the more "Irish" city. Today I would definitely say London though.
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  #126  
Old Posted Apr 17, 2018, 10:57 PM
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An upsurge in Irish immigration occurred in the first part of the nineteenth century...By 1841, more than 3 percent of London's population was Irish. The mass emigration from Ireland caused by the 1846-8 potato famine led to a further influx, so that, by 1851, the number of Irish had reached 109,000. The general growth of London's population at the time, none the less, meant that they were still a small proportion of the total population - only 5 percent...They found work in the docks, building industry, railway construction, other casual trades and, in the case of women, heavy domestic work...Many settled in Holborn, St-Giles-in-the-Field, Whitechapel and the St. Olave part of Southwark - ancient Irish centres close to the main labour markets for casual work...The Irish rookery - the old-fashioned word for a slum neighbourhood - was something of a myth, however - with poverty, rather than ethnic exclusivity, determining the social and ethnic mixes of such neighbourhoods. Like many other migrants to London, the Irish-born were present throughout the city and, even when clustered together, they hardly ever formed more than 50 percent of the population of a census district.
https://books.google.ca/books?id=09a...0-1914&f=false
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  #127  
Old Posted Apr 17, 2018, 11:23 PM
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Apparently there's still some demand for the Irish language being taught in US colleges/universities that native speakers are coming to the US to teach it -- I wonder how much of it is driven by "assimilated" Irish Americans wanting to reconnect with their roots. But then, the typical language learner in the US who learns through taking school courses often takes a pretty utilitarian view of language, right?

https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-...ents-1.2569848

Quote:
So, why am I teaching Irish to American university students?

Because there is such high demand for Irish language courses here that they are being taught in almost 100 colleges and universities across the country.

But why would anyone here bother to learn Irish?

This might sound like a simplistic or vaguely sarcastic question, but over here, I’ve learnt that Irish is just another language. Like French, German, Spanish or Chinese, it is viewed simply as a means of communication and gateway to another culture. It isn’t weighed down by the same emotional baggage as it is at home, which is something I still find both confusing and refreshing even seven months into the programme.
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  #128  
Old Posted Apr 17, 2018, 11:33 PM
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I don't see the practical means of learning Irish, but if there's demand for it, why not.
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  #129  
Old Posted Yesterday, 12:05 AM
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Yeah, it'd be mostly for cultural interest and reconnecting to one's "roots" rather than a desire to use it practically for talking to the "old country", since the "old country" already switched to English dominance generations ago.

Other common languages learned by Americans like Spanish, German, French etc. might have a "reconnecting to one's roots" motivation behind it but usually it's not the sole motivation alone as there's still often a pragmatic (eg. business) component to the choice.

I heard my Chinese Canadian friend once complaining about how Chinese language learning used to be dominated by the "reconnecting to one's roots" crowd with the Chinese diaspora, but nowadays has a much more pragmatic (economic, geopolitical, etc.) angle. He seemed to dislike the idea that "doing business with China, the actual country and its political/economic might" drives the motivation and not "interest in Chinese culture and in of itself".

But at the end of the day, most language learning is utilitarian and languages are maintained mostly because they're seen as useful rather than for sentimental reasons.
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  #130  
Old Posted Yesterday, 12:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
I'm guessing that Budapest was most Jewish city on earth before 1900.
Second largest Jewish population in Europe after Warsaw.

Warsaw

1864 72,800 32.6%
1897 210,500 33.7%

Budapest

1869 44,890 16.6%
1900 186,047 25.4%

http://www.yivoencyclopedia.org/article.aspx/Budapest

http://www.yivoencyclopedia.org/article.aspx/Warsaw
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  #131  
Old Posted Yesterday, 3:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Capsicum View Post
It's too bad the Irish language couldn't persist longer in North America, in my opinion. When I lived in New England, I once knew a local (he was in his 30s in age) from Massachusetts who told me his grandmother who passed away not too long ago still spoke Irish (and thus the language was still within living memory to him) and lamented the fact that it was not passed on to him, since he'd have loved to have learned it as a kid.
I would wager that although there were certainly some, the majority of Irish immigrants to North America weren't even Irish native speakers themselves.
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  #132  
Old Posted Yesterday, 3:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Docere View Post
Contemporary Poland has rather different boundaries than it did in the Second Polish Republic after WWI, which stretched much further east. Today it goes further west, as Germany lost more territory to Poland after WWII.

And that area has gone from ethnically German to ethnically Polish, following the expulsion of ethnic Germans:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flight...r_World_War_II

The city of Wroclaw used to be the German city of Breslau.

The Free City of Danzig is now Gdansk, Poland. Danzig was overwhelmingly German speaking as well.
I really liked the novel The Tin Drum by Gunther Grass, and the movie they made out of it.
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  #133  
Old Posted Yesterday, 4:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
I would wager that although there were certainly some, the majority of Irish immigrants to North America weren't even Irish native speakers themselves.
A lot of sources I've read say that Ireland reached majority English speaking status roughly in the early to mid 19th century (with its Irish language decline exacerbated by the poorest, often rural, Irish speakers moving away and assimilating to English, whether that's in the cities or overseas), so I'm guessing pre-Famine Irish immigrants could still have been largely Irish speaking, though not by the mid 19th and probably not many Irish speakers by the late 19th century.

Quote:

In fact, historians estimate that a quarter to a third of Famine immigrants were Gaeilgeoirí, or Irish speakers, and undoubtedly counted monoglots in their numbers. With English so ubiquitous in Ireland, this may be a bit hard to fathom today but at the time there would have been an appreciable number of Irish immigrants for whom English was as much a foreign language as Italian, French or German.
http://blog.nyhistory.org/the-unadul...tury-new-york/
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  #134  
Old Posted Yesterday, 12:46 PM
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An interesting topic, but it would be questionable to portray early 20th century London as highly diverse compared to the London of today. There certainly were pockets, linked to the empire and trade routes, mostly focused around the East End and its docks.

Go back several centuries and you do encounter periods where the foreign-born population share spiked, typically linked to events on the continent, e.g. persecution of the French Huguenots, when England offered stability. One building which does a good job of demonstrating the fluctuating waves of migration to London is the Brick Lane Jamme Masjid. It was built originally as La Neuve Eglise by French Huguenots refugees. It subsequently became a Wesleyan chapel, and then a Methodist chapel, before becoming a synagogue for central and eastern European Jewish migrants. Around half a century ago the place then became a mosque focused around the Bangladeshi community.


Image taken by stevecadman on Flickr: https://www.flickr.com/photos/stevec...66683/sizes/l/

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A decade ago it became popular among the British media, and then forumers here and on SSC to tout England as the original nation of immigrants. It was a fabrication with the intended purpose of usurping the unique and optimistic history of the new world, and more specifically The US, and even more specifically New York. They did this by conflating local migration and conquerors from nearby lands, which I'm sure they had plenty of; with immigrants, which they didn't. Of course, many countries have seen local migration and conquering neighbors, so if we consider England a nation of immigrants, then that makes just about every other country one too.
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