Arbutus: Greenway & Future Streetcar | Proposed

[theKB]

Originally Posted by AMTDGT

Love it when that jerk flaps his gums over something he has no jurisdiction over....pipelines, shipping, railways, etc and the idiot press we have here in Vancouver gobbles it up......

My understanding he is the biggest impediment in the M line being extended toward UBC

It's always great hearing the news about Visions latest "resolution" over something they have ZERO CONTROL. Pandering to the special interest at it's finest.

[Genauso]

Deleted

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P.S. Surveying stakes are marking CP's land with the crew as far north as 16th Ave today. No sign of any vehicle on the tracks (there is a kind of pickup truck that can switch to ride on steel wheels)

[Genauso]

Sorry, I just read the recent posts. This thread is actually people talking about themselves and their gripes while making incoherent arguments about unrelated subjects. Please delete my on topic post

[spm2013]

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[officedweller]

CP's use of the tracks for storing tains and for training is actually a good thing.

It'll preserve the RoW for future rail transit uses, rather than caving to people who want to convert it to a greenway or park (the zoning bylaw upheld by the Supreme Court prevents other development).

Once converted to a greenway - it becomes a de facto median for East Boulevard and West Boulevard and good luck getting a streetcar or LRT line built down the middle of it in the future (we already have experience trying to put rapid transit down a median on Cambie).

I can't see fences other than to protect any training equipment that is stored on the site.

[twoNeurons]

Originally Posted by officedweller

CP's use of the tracks for storing tains and for training is actually a good thing.

It'll preserve the RoW for future rail transit uses, rather than caving to people who want to convert it to a greenway or park (the zoning bylaw upheld by the Supreme Court prevents other development).

Once converted to a greenway - it becomes a de facto median for East Boulevard and West Boulevard and good luck getting a streetcar or LRT line built down the middle of it in the future (we already have experience trying to put rapid transit down a median on Cambie).

I can't see fences other than to protect any training equipment that is stored on the site.

This is exactly what I was thinking as well.

Trains SHOULD be used. It discourages squatters from using the land for private use (extending their back yards and planting veggie gardens) in the rail ROW.

This corridor is extremely valuable as a transportation corridor... especially when the Broadway line gets built.

[makr3trkr]

The schadenfreude is palpable.

The people who live along Arbutus had their druthers ("Skytrain" is barred from operating within the corridor).

Perhaps now they're wondering if that wasn't the lesser of possible evils.

[Genauso]

Originally Posted by makr3trkr

The people who live along Arbutus had their druthers ("Skytrain" is barred from operating within the corridor).

What? I remember they lost out to Cambie because the route was more direct, passed Nat Bailey/Children's/VGH/City Hall/Oakridge/Langara.

People in the area were very much in favor of an LRT line that connected high schools, the Arbutus Club, and Kits/Burrard to replace a bus route shared with Hastings, where they bunch up and that doesn't work in ice or snow because of trolley wires and steep hills.

Yes you heard about people along Cambie complaining, but I'd have to guess most were similarly supportive because of the price increases that did come. The only ones who I could understand complaining were commuters with the temporary inconvenience, and more so from anyone with a lease they didn't negotiate lower during but that went up after.

The ones who go out of their way to be heard are more likely to complain, and the news select the few who will drive the biggest reaction in their audience. I saw someone in this thread reference a decade old comment by one of these clowns ("crème de la crème"), and it worked very well because they chose to talk about it in an unrelated thread.

Few people on these forums appear know the city well enough to detect all the regional nuances such that they can separate groups step by step until they are dealing with individuals they can understand and identify with on some level. Either that, or they just enjoy being upset over nothing. Why else does someone from Surrey in the same day blame all of Vancouver for bridge tolls and bridge congestion, but advocate TransLink building an Arbutus LRT line if only because they assumed the local residents would be upset?

[spm2013]

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[makr3trkr]

Originally Posted by Genauso

What? I remember they lost out to Cambie because the route was more direct, passed Nat Bailey/Children's/VGH/City Hall/Oakridge/Langara.

That was part of the reason, this was also part of the reason:

Arbutus Corridor Official Development Plan
https://web.archive.org/web/20060417...aws/ODP/AC.PDF

2.1 Designations for the Arbutus Corridor

"This plan designates all of the land in the Arbutus Corridor for use only as a public thoroughfare [...]

excluding:

(v) any grade-separated rapid transit system elevated, in whole or in part, above the surface of the ground,
of which one type is the rapid transit system know as “SkyTrain” currently in use in the Lower Mainland"

[Genauso]

Originally Posted by makr3trkr

"This plan designates all of the land in the Arbutus Corridor for use only as a public thoroughfare [...]

excluding:

(v) any grade-separated rapid transit system elevated, in whole or in part, above a surface of the ground,
of which one type is the rapid transit system know as “SkyTrain” currently in use in the Lower Mainland"

I remember Surrey city council was upset because they advocated the cheapest option, a slow at grade LRT along the existing Arbutus corridor with many stops, but that completely missed the original point of an airport line and something proven by experience now. If it was going to be fast it would have been grade separated and underground just like Cambie.

The reason it would not be elevated is that nearby property owners would be entitled to remedies (buyout offer, landscaping upgrades to mitigate noise, cash compensation for change in property value) just like has happened with the Evergreen line. There are different factors to consider, but these are expensive homes which have been there a long time and have a strong case to be protected from encumbrances beyond their sold reasonable expectations. Maybe it's redundant to put it in the zoning, maybe it helps them negotiate a better deal against CP, maybe it's just a platitude to appease NIMBY busybodies that show up to community hearings.

Do you remember when Gordon Campbell's government bought out homeowners living underneath the power line right of way in Tsawassen? In that case the homes were not old, and they were built within the lifetimes of their owners on cheap land that was cheap specifically because power lines would be built in a predictable time frame. That was 5 years ago, and so even though BC Hydro, now BCTC, had done everything properly to secure the rights decades in advance when this land was just open grazing fields, hundreds of millions had to be put up to buy the homes at what was their peak price from a couple years before this and the housing downturn happened.

Well didn't have to be done, it was part of the election, but the point is if CP/TransLink don't have the property rights, it can get expensive fast just negotiating all these payouts in exchange for the encumbrances. Tunnel = better + cheaper in some cases, the benefit though is the demand in those cases are usually ready and waiting to provide revenue from day 1

I just don't see the controversy in anything but perception.

[spm2013]

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[AMTDGT]

Originally Posted by makr3trkr

That was part of the reason, this was also part of the reason:

Arbutus Corridor Official Development Plan
https://web.archive.org/web/20060417...aws/ODP/AC.PDF

2.1 Designations for the Arbutus Corridor

"This plan designates all of the land in the Arbutus Corridor for use only as a public thoroughfare [...]

excluding:

(v) any grade-separated rapid transit system elevated, in whole or in part, above the surface of the ground,
of which one type is the rapid transit system know as “SkyTrain” currently in use in the Lower Mainland"

Of course in reality a Vancouver community plan has as much force on CP as a fly on a cows butt....... wouldn't it be a giggle if CP ran its own commuter rail on those tracks, bought out starbucks and terminated at Main Street station....Not sure if those tracks still go all the way to Steveston or if they still own the ROW

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by AMTDGT

Of course in reality a Vancouver community plan has as much force on CP as a fly on a cows butt.......

It had the very important impact of preventing CP from selling the land to a developer. Without that plan it's very likely that the entire line would already be a bunch of condos.

So no, Vancouver can't force CP to do anything. But they can ensure that when CP is finally ready to sell the line that it will be used for the purpose envisioned by that the City.

I'm watching this with great interest. I'm sure the change in status is a direct result of the fact that that Hunter Harrison is now at the controls. He has a well-earned reputation as a hard driving, waste no money, spare no assets, take no prisoners CEO. If he's spending money on the line he must have some strategy for it. "Storage" seems unlikely to me, since he's famous for divesting himself of non-performing assets. "Training" seems a little fishy too. I really don't have any idea other than the hunch that they'd like to sell the line and they're trying to do something to maximize it's value.

[jlousa]

Would certainly be interesting if an incinerator were built on Squamish land and the feed by the train tracks... Can't even imagine how current council would react to that.

[spm2013]

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[whatnext]

Originally Posted by trofirhen

How so?

Neither senior level of government is going to lift a finger to do anything that remotely helps Mayor Greenjeans. With his constant eco-droning and his active campaigning to stifle any kind of resource development he is persona non grata with the BC Libs and the federal Tories. Another reason why Surrey will get the next tranche of transit money and Vancouver will be frozen out.

I hope CPR stores some decomissioned DOT111 oil tankers on the route.

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by spm2013

Well storage and training is just code for forcing the City to take a position on the future of the line.

The city has already taken its position: the corridor lands are to be used only for rail, transit, cycle paths or pedestrian greenways. The Supreme Court of Canada has affirmed the City's right to do this without compensating CP for the loss of land value triggered by this plan. CP doesn't really have much choice in the matter.

They aren't going to be allowed to develop it, so selling it to the city seems the most plausible exit. An active rail line is just bargaining.

I think this is probably true, but IMHO it would be smart for the City to just wait it out. I can't see CP as being inclined to spend much effort over this line, they have much bigger fish to fry. The wildcard is how much of a fuss voters could potentially make.

Hunter Harrison only has a few more years in the saddle - he's getting up there in years and no matter how hard-headed he is the City won't have to deal with him for too long.

[trofirhen]

Originally Posted by makr3trkr

That was part of the reason, this was also part of the reason:

Arbutus Corridor Official Development Plan
https://web.archive.org/web/20060417...aws/ODP/AC.PDF

2.1 Designations for the Arbutus Corridor

"This plan designates all of the land in the Arbutus Corridor for use only as a public thoroughfare [...]

excluding:

(v) any grade-separated rapid transit system elevated, in whole or in part, above the surface of the ground,
of which one type is the rapid transit system know as “SkyTrain” currently in use in the Lower Mainland"

This boils down to "no ugly elevated pylons and guideways," perhaps understandable if people don't want concrete guideways messing up their view.
Yes, I know, this seems pandering to rich West Siders, but nevertheless it does not exclude rrt, which is the core issue here.
The system can still be built, at or below-grade, it seems. Correct me if I'm wrong

[casper]

Originally Posted by aberdeen5698

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Hunter Harrison only has a few more years in the saddle - he's getting up there in years and no matter how hard-headed he is the City won't have to deal with him for too long.

He was also brought in to turn CP around and make it a profitable railway (similar to what he did at CN).

He was not brought in to turn CP into a property developer.