Is South Florida part of the Caribbean and/or Latin America?

[Docere]

If Southern Baptist presence is a good measure for "core South" then Missouri is more Southern than West Virginia.

[cannedairspray]

I think the point is that it's not one metric that dictates anything, but the general weight of many of them.

[Docere]

Is Toronto part of the United States? It is after all south of the 49th parallel.

Is Alaska mostly Canada with a touch of Siberia?

[McBane]

Originally Posted by hauntedheadnc

And why is it simply unthinkable that a culture that can just as easily include Hazard County, Kentucky as the Research Triangle Park not also include Miami?

Are you trying to insinuate that, because the Research Triangle is a world class hotbed of education and knowledge, that it can't be a part of the South? Once again you're putting forth old stereotypes of the South. The prevalent culture of the South has nothing to do with hillbillies and the confederacy. But it does have to do with religion, ethnicity, cuisine, dialect, values, and migration patterns. Just b/c the Research Triangle is a center of research, doesn't take away everything it shares with the rest of the South.

[jd3189]

Would it be wise to say that South Florida is one of if not the most cosmopolitan areas in the South? From the ground, it seems like that. What other metros can compare? Maybe Atlanta?

[hauntedheadnc]

Originally Posted by McBane

Are you trying to insinuate that, because the Research Triangle is a world class hotbed of education and knowledge, that it can't be a part of the South?

No. I am insinuating that a culture, containing many and varied subcultures, can run the gamut from some of the nation's worst poverty and drug use (Hazard County), to some of the best brains and most high-tech labs in the country (Research Triangle Park). As such, an overarching culture as flexible as that can also easily make room for something as wild as Miami or, for that matter, New Orleans. Or the Qualla Boundary. Or NoVa. Or Key West. Or any other place in the twelve states which constitute the Southeastern US.

And it also bears repeating that if South Florida just is not Southern, exactly when did that change? Because, as the history that I've dug up shows, a plantation complete with slaves was there for decades before Mrs. Tuttle moved into that very same plantation and began to work her magic. I hate to drag the nastiness of the stereotypical South into it, but there's ample evidence that before the Civil Rights era, Miami wasn't any better than Birmingham when it came to segregation and enforcing it. So again, I ask why a subculture that bloomed and grew in the past sixty years completely negates everything that came before it. In my opinion it does not.

In the end, opinion is all that it is too. This is hardly an important argument because whether I say Miami is Southern and whether you say it isn't, Miami is and will be what it is and will be.

I would urge you to actually go and visit those slave quarters in Lummus Park though. I find monuments like that to be incredibly moving.

[Capsicum]

Originally Posted by jd3189

Would it be wise to say that South Florida is one of if not the most cosmopolitan areas in the South? From the ground, it seems like that. What other metros can compare? Maybe Atlanta?

Houston.

[McBane]

Originally Posted by hauntedheadnc

No. I am insinuating that a culture, containing many and varied subcultures, can run the gamut from some of the nation's worst poverty and drug use (Hazard County), to some of the best brains and most high-tech labs in the country (Research Triangle Park). As such, an overarching culture as flexible as that can also easily make room for something as wild as Miami or, for that matter, New Orleans. Or the Qualla Boundary. Or NoVa. Or Key West. Or any other place in the twelve states which constitute the Southeastern US.

And it also bears repeating that if South Florida just is not Southern, exactly when did that change? Because, as the history that I've dug up shows, a plantation complete with slaves was there for decades before Mrs. Tuttle moved into that very same plantation and began to work her magic. I hate to drag the nastiness of the stereotypical South into it, but there's ample evidence that before the Civil Rights era, Miami wasn't any better than Birmingham when it came to segregation and enforcing it. So again, I ask why a subculture that bloomed and grew in the past sixty years completely negates everything that came before it. In my opinion it does not.

In the end, opinion is all that it is too. This is hardly an important argument because whether I say Miami is Southern and whether you say it isn't, Miami is and will be what it is and will be.

I would urge you to actually go and visit those slave quarters in Lummus Park though. I find monuments like that to be incredibly moving.

My contention is that a southern culture never established deep enough roots in South FL to withstand the onslaught of migration (mainly from the north) that occurred during the region's major growth periods (1920's and 1950's-present). Those migrations overwhelmed the local population and transformed the area to what it is now: an outlier that isn't dominated by Anglo-Saxon Baptists with a southern drawl and socially conservative values.

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by McBane

Just b/c the Research Triangle is a center of research, doesn't take away everything it shares with the rest of the South.

And Research Triangle, despite the masses of Northern transplants, shares many commonalities with the rest of the South. It has tons of Baptists and Methodists, fewer Catholics, lots of black Southerners, etc. Miami doesn't have any of these characteristics.

Miami was a largely empty backwater until relatively recently. Now millions have relocated there from the North and Caribbean, and the few "natives" with "Southern" characteristics are more a historical footnote.

And Miami, unlike Research Triangle, has a very geography-specific local culture. It feels like nowhere else. Research Triangle is Southern lite with a heavy dose of generic American sprawl. There's no distinct ascendant replacement culture as with Miami.

[hauntedheadnc]

Originally Posted by McBane

...an outlier that isn't dominated by Anglo-Saxon Baptists with a southern drawl and socially conservative values.

...Just like pretty much every other fast-growing area of the South to some degree.

For example, if you were to consider Lilburn, Georgia it's doubtful this building:


Source.

...would come to mind. It is the largest temple of its kind outside of India.

Likewise, were you to consider Clover, SC, this building:


Source.

...would not come to mind but there it is all the same.

So again, just because a place evolves that does not mean the past has died. Miami was born in the South and lives today in the South. It just developed, with the help of massive immigration, a vibrant subculture all its own that is just one of many vibrant subcultures across the South.

[Shawn]

Originally Posted by McBane

My contention is that a southern culture never established deep enough roots in South FL to withstand the onslaught of migration (mainly from the north) that occurred during the region's major growth periods (1920's and 1950's-present). Those migrations overwhelmed the local population and transformed the area to what it is now: an outlier that isn't dominated by Anglo-Saxon Baptists with a southern drawl and socially conservative values.

I think this is one of the better points made in this thread.

Miami-Dade County had 83 people in 1860, and just above 40,000 people by 1920. Jump to 500,000 by 1950. 1 million by 1961. This same trend is mirrored perfectly in Broward and Palm Beach Counties. Now, not all that growth came exclusively from outside the South . . . but a hell of a lot did.

How Southern can a place culturally be if the entire 4 county 5000 sq mile core had less than 1000 people living in it during the Civil War? Compared to about 7 million people today?

[hauntedheadnc]

Originally Posted by Crawford

And Research Triangle, despite the masses of Northern transplants, shares many commonalities with the rest of the South. It has tons of Baptists and Methodists, fewer Catholics, lots of black Southerners, etc. Miami doesn't have any of these characteristics.

Miami was a largely empty backwater until relatively recently. Now millions have relocated there from the North and Caribbean, and the few "natives" with "Southern" characteristics are more a historical footnote.

And Miami, unlike Research Triangle, has a very geography-specific local culture. It feels like nowhere else. Research Triangle is Southern lite with a heavy dose of generic American sprawl. There's no distinct ascendant replacement culture as with Miami.

Well, regardless, Confederate Memorial Day will be observed on April 26th this year in Florida, so remember folks... If you plan to cook out, remember to grill safely and be sure to have fun!

[hauntedheadnc]

Originally Posted by Shawn

How Southern can a place culturally be if the entire 4 county 5000 sq mile core had less than 1000 people living in it during the Civil War? Compared to about 7 million people today?

Ask Birmingham, AL, which did not exist prior to 1871.

[Shawn]

Originally Posted by hauntedheadnc

Ask Birmingham, AL, which did not exist prior to 1871.

Not so apt a comparison. Jefferson County did exist in 1871, and had about 12,000 people already living there. If you drew a circle with an area of 5000 sq miles centered on where Birmingham's downtown now stands, you'd have found about 200,000 people in 1870. I got that by adding up the 1870 census numbers for Jefferson County and all its bordering counties (Wikipedia). Compare that to 83 for Miami-Dade and under 1000 for Miami-Dade and what would become Broward and Palm Beach Counties. And within 20 years of its founding, Birmingham had grown basically 1000% off of rural black and white Alabamians. The city was already at 130,000 before the 1920s wave of Italians came to work the mills. Also all according to the Birmingham Wikipedia entry. Maybe Miami never had this Southern Base population's worth of established cultural norms for immigrant or migrant groups to adopt or take cues from?

[bossabreezes]

Culturally, South Florida (Palm Beach through Monroe Counties on the East Coast/Keys) are much more related to the groups that populated them. Arguably, the majority of the population of American born residents in the area are not originally from the South, and a large majority of them come from the Mid-Atlantic/Northeast region and Midwest.

This doesn't even count the huge foreign born populations from mainly Cuba and the Caribbean.

No other Southern City remotely feels close to Miami. It's not Southern, it's not Latin American, it's an animal of it's own.

Atlanta on the other hand, even though hosting million(s) of migrants from other parts of the United States and the World still has a distinct Southern identity. The accent, the sweet tea, the old plantations in the area….Miami and Southern Florida has none of that.

[hauntedheadnc]

Originally Posted by Shawn

Not so apt a comparison. Jefferson County did exist in 1871, and had about 12,000 people already living there. If you drew a circle with an area of 5000 sq miles centered on where Birmingham's downtown now stands, you'd have found about 200,000 people in 1870. I got that by adding up the 1870 census numbers for Jefferson County and all its bordering counties (Wikipedia). Compare that to 83 for Miami-Dade and under 1000 for Miami-Dade and what would become Broward and Palm Beach Counties. And within 20 years of its founding, Birmingham had grown basically 1000% off of rural black and white Alabamians. The city was already at 130,000 before the 1920s wave of Italians came to work the mills. Also all according to the Birmingham Wikipedia entry. Maybe Miami never had this Southern Base population's worth of established cultural norms for immigrant or migrant groups to adopt or take cues from?

But apt enough because, do you suppose that when those Italians poured in, suddenly there was a contingent of people saying the city was no longer Southern? Do you suppose the same was said of cities in the North when Southern blacks moved in en masse? Did anyone fret that Harlem, originally a Jewish and Italian neighborhood, was no longer in keeping? What about The Bronx, which was originally Jewish, Italian, Polish, and Irish? Miami is the only city and South Florida the only region I've ever seen people declare no longer of their region because people from outside moved in.

Again, it bears questioning as to exactly when South Florida ceased to be Southern because for quite some time it unequivocally was. It was unabashedly Southern at least until the 1960's. I doubt, for example that anyone would say Their Eyes Were Watching God is anything but a Southern novel, and it was written in 1937 and set, in large part, in the Everglades and in Palm Beach County.

[jd3189]

Originally Posted by Capsicum

Houston.

I haven't been there yet, but from what I read and hear about, it's likely. Houston has a sizable East Asian population, unlike South Florida but like Atlanta. Plus it has a lot of sub-Saharan Africans.

[dave8721]

Originally Posted by Shawn

I think this is one of the better points made in this thread.

Miami-Dade County had 83 people in 1860, and just above 40,000 people by 1920. Jump to 500,000 by 1950. 1 million by 1961. This same trend is mirrored perfectly in Broward and Palm Beach Counties. Now, not all that growth came exclusively from outside the South . . . but a hell of a lot did.

How Southern can a place culturally be if the entire 4 county 5000 sq mile core had less than 1000 people living in it during the Civil War? Compared to about 7 million people today?

It should also be noted that in 1860 when only 83 people remained in Miami-Dade County following the seminole wars "Dade County" as it was known then covered all of South Florida (present day Miami-Dade, Broward, and Palm Beach). A total of 83 people lived in the area that now has a population of ~7,000,000. It was as close to a clean slate as there is.

[Capsicum]

Originally Posted by hauntedheadnc

...Just like pretty much every other fast-growing area of the South to some degree.

For example, if you were to consider Lilburn, Georgia it's doubtful this building:


Source.

...would come to mind. It is the largest temple of its kind outside of India.

Likewise, were you to consider Clover, SC, this building:


Source.

...would not come to mind but there it is all the same.

So again, just because a place evolves that does not mean the past has died. Miami was born in the South and lives today in the South. It just developed, with the help of massive immigration, a vibrant subculture all its own that is just one of many vibrant subcultures across the South.

Another example of religious diversity in the South is the fact that the Bahá'í Faith has a long history in South Carolina, going back to the 1860s but becoming really prominent later in the 20th century, especially at the time of the Civil Rights movement. Many converted to the religion and found its egalitarian teachings appealing at a time of segregation and discrimination in the South. It's claimed to be the second largest religion in SC.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bahá%2...South_Carolina

[dave8721]

Originally Posted by hauntedheadnc

No. I am insinuating that a culture, containing many and varied subcultures, can run the gamut from some of the nation's worst poverty and drug use (Hazard County), to some of the best brains and most high-tech labs in the country (Research Triangle Park). As such, an overarching culture as flexible as that can also easily make room for something as wild as Miami or, for that matter, New Orleans. Or the Qualla Boundary. Or NoVa. Or Key West. Or any other place in the twelve states which constitute the Southeastern US.

And it also bears repeating that if South Florida just is not Southern, exactly when did that change? Because, as the history that I've dug up shows, a plantation complete with slaves was there for decades before Mrs. Tuttle moved into that very same plantation and began to work her magic. I hate to drag the nastiness of the stereotypical South into it, but there's ample evidence that before the Civil Rights era, Miami wasn't any better than Birmingham when it came to segregation and enforcing it. So again, I ask why a subculture that bloomed and grew in the past sixty years completely negates everything that came before it. In my opinion it does not.

In the end, opinion is all that it is too. This is hardly an important argument because whether I say Miami is Southern and whether you say it isn't, Miami is and will be what it is and will be.

I would urge you to actually go and visit those slave quarters in Lummus Park though. I find monuments like that to be incredibly moving.

The one part of South Florida that was actually heavily populated during the Civil War was Key West. Key West rather than joining the rest of Florida stayed loyal to the Union and was a key Union outpost and played a large part in its victory over the South (its key location made it a lot easier to blockade any ships that wanted to get to New Orleans through the Florida Straits).
On the other hand in the 1950's-60's South Florida was heavily segregated. The area I grew up in in the 1980's still beared those scars. In South Dade, I lived on the East side of US-1 (the white side) and witnessed the stark differences when you went West of there into the black side.

Here in Coconut Grove is a pretty stark example of old segregation (affluent white neighborhood bordering poor black neighborhood). An actual wall used to separate the two.
https://www.google.com/maps/@25.7248.../data=!3m1!1e3

Here is essentially a moat separating the white from black area in these 1950's suburbs:
https://www.google.com/maps/@25.6377.../data=!3m1!1e3

Where I grew up. Affluent white neighborhood to the east. Poor black neighborhood to the west.
https://www.google.com/maps/@25.6067.../data=!3m1!1e3

I guess you could say South Florida was created as an outpost of the North, but in the 1940's into the early 1960's was turning Southern before the massive hispanic influx of the 1960's and subsequent white flight changed into something else entirely.