Who will replace Mulcair? (NDP leadership)

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by JHikka

It helps growing up in a very urban metropolis where you're never exposed to the resource-energy industry or the people who work in it. I get the vibe many here who live in Ottawa Centre would be LEAPy.

Indeed, you're not the only one who thinks the Leap manifesto is the work of latte slurpers.

New Brunswick NDP leader Dominic Cardy (a pretty level headed individual) on the Leap Manifesto and the NDP convention:

- "the federal NDP is heading down a dark path with Leap"
- "the Manifesto reads like something hatched over $12 lattes in downtown Toronto"

Ouch........

No mincing of word there - Well said Mr. Cardy, well said.

[SHOFEAR]

I welcome the NDP and their extreme environmentalists decision makers fall into irrelevancy.

[lio45]

It's not abnormal for the non-Green left to have, at some point, to decide whether they're a pro-pollution, pro-workers party or if they're instead an anti-pollution, anti-workers party.

Hard to say with certainty which path will be the more palatable to the new generation of young voters... Might not be the wrong choice for the NDP, in the end.

The downtown Toronto latte-sipper might be the average voter of tomorrow, after all.

[O-tacular]

Originally Posted by jeremy_haak

The NDP is clearly looking to the future when the information economy is inevitably supplanted by the pottery economy.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by lio45

The downtown Toronto latte-sipper might be the average voter of tomorrow, after all.

As the population urbanizes you may be correct, but this just further accentuates the urban/rural disconnect that exists in modern societies.

If the NDP ventures too far down this "dark path", there might be a new proletarian revolution, just not the revolution that the NDP anticipates, and the urban latte slurpers might not be the ones benefitting from the revolution.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

As the population urbanizes you may be correct, but this just further accentuates the urban/rural disconnect that exists in modern societies.

It will be interesting to see if the democratic mechanisms will start to adjust better to the population becoming urban by starting to drop some of their geography-based characteristics someday.

Right now it seems still tolerable for PEIers to have like 20x more political weight than Torontonians (quick guesstimate considering all things, between the House and the Senate -- 4 senators for them vs 24 for all of Ontario!) but if the current urbanization trends continue, someday this might cease to be considered acceptable, and get addressed.

(By simple means like "one person one vote", etc.)

[kwoldtimer]

It is interesting to note that the NDP has been here before - today's Mop&Pail has a piece by Lawrence Martin about James Laxer and the "Waffle" (circa 1969).

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/opini...ticle29593225/

[eternallyme]

Originally Posted by Docere

Of the 44 ridings held by the NDP now, which are they "doomed" to lose because of Leap? Hard to think of any really.

It could be a challenge in terms of winning back old seats in resource areas, such as northern Ontario.

The three Windsor-area seats, as well as Charlie Angus's seat, to name a few. That's just in Ontario. Also the northern Manitoba and northern Saskatchewan seats.

[O-tacular]

Originally Posted by lio45

It will be interesting to see if the democratic mechanisms will start to adjust better to the population becoming urban by starting to drop some of their geography-based characteristics someday.

Right now it seems still tolerable for PEIers to have like 20x more political weight than Torontonians (quick guesstimate considering all things, between the House and the Senate -- 4 senators for them vs 24 for all of Ontario!) but if the current urbanization trends continue, someday this might cease to be considered acceptable, and get addressed.

(By simple means like "one person one vote", etc.)

Senators are useless anyways. This isn't the States where they actually play a role in shaping laws. Here Mike Duffy and gang collect pay cheques while rubber stamping whatever the house of commons sends their way. If they even show up at all.

[big W]

Originally Posted by PoscStudent

I don't think a reasonable number of Canadians believe in it all. It's great to talk about trying to be environmental leaders but you don't need to shut down an industry that contributes so much to accomplish that.

What if a party was proposing shutting down Ontario's auto industry because it's not environmentally friendly?

In some ways it would be leading to shutting down the Ontario auto industry as the vehicles produced for the most part are powered by fossil fuels and a significant source of the energy to run the plants is from fossil fuels.

Many new electricity plants being built in Ontario are using natural gas (a fossil fuel) which means you need gas lines to get the gas to the plants (so pipelines and burning of fuel). Ontario will not shut down the plants for a long time (have a 50 year life for example and are still in the process of being built so talk of shutting it down in a generation (typically considered 15 years) is almost a fools errand.

http://www.ieso.ca/Pages/Power-Data/Supply.aspx
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...ons_in_Ontario

Additionally if you were to shut down any new plants and lines etc it will most likely cause another spike in electricity rates. This caused much of the last exodus of plants from Ontario and it will probably cause others to move to the Southern US or Mexico again.

As a huge fan of hockey I will use this example, we cannot expect every single person to be a prime 1980's Wayne Gretzky the first time they put on skates and shred the NHL record book. However if you practice hockey over the years, first working on skating, then your checking, then shooting, then passing etc you incrementally become Alexander Burrows for example. While Burrows will never be mistaken for Gretzky, with dedication to his craft (working his way up from playing roller hockey to the ECHL to ACL and finally to the NHL) he has become one of the top 0.1% of hockey players in the world (like any NHLers with a lengthy career) and therefore that is nothing to sneer at.

Setting such lofty goals are nice but you have to live in the real world and cant be such a day dreamer such at this proposal. In many ways I believe things like this do more harm than good on the environmental front as it pushes people away rather than bringing them onto your side incrementally. Make the goals realistic and achievable. Get more people on board and work towards it. Work your way to eliminating 99.9% pollution incrementally stuff and getting the 99.9% on your side but with dedication and hard work with a set of smaller and achievable goes and you will get there.

[Bcasey25raptor]

I was hoping the BC NDP could win next year, but this leap bullshit has ruined that chance.

Christy Clark will get another majority, guaranteed, and hell, i'ma centrist and it looks like i'll vote for her.

BC Needs an actual Liberal party, i'm sick of the NDP and the BC Liberals in name only party.

If the NDP dies Federally, i'll welcome it, it means more Liberal wins.

But goddammit, couldn't they have waited until 2018?

As it stands now.
NDP will lose manitoba in 7 days, they will fail to win BC in 2017, and they will lose Alberta in 2019.

They will have no provinces under their governance by 2020 and the federal party will be eviscerated in 2019.

Good job NDP delegates, good fucking job.

[*Stardust*]

Originally Posted by Bcasey25raptor

I was hoping the BC NDP could win next year, but this leap bullshit has ruined that chance.

Christy Clark will get another majority, guaranteed, and hell, i'ma centrist and it looks like i'll vote for her.

BC Needs an actual Liberal party, i'm sick of the NDP and the BC Liberals in name only party.

If the NDP dies Federally, i'll welcome it, it means more Liberal wins.

But goddammit, couldn't they have waited until 2018?

As it stands now.
NDP will lose manitoba in 7 days, they will fail to win BC in 2017, and they will lose Alberta in 2019.

They will have no provinces under their governance by 2020 and the federal party will be eviscerated in 2019.

Good job NDP delegates, good fucking job.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/britis...rgan-1.3485585

He's the third NDP leader to come out against it. I don't live in BC but I doubt Clark will win again. Isn't she loathed by the Centre to Centre Left crowd?

[MolsonExport]

Originally Posted by *Stardust*

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/britis...rgan-1.3485585

He's the third NDP leader to come out against it. I don't live in BC but I doubt Clark will win again. Isn't she loathed by the Centre to Centre Left crowd?

Better to have Christy than Glen.

I fucking hated this guy when he was Premier:

amazonaws

[kwoldtimer]

Folks should keep in mind what the recent NDP convention actually concluded wrt the Leap Manifesto - that its provisions “can and should be debated and modified on their own merits and according to the needs of various communities and all parts of Canada.” That's pretty mushy and still a long way from party policy or election platforms. Things might become clearer if the party indeed swings to the left, but it's pretty mushy at this stage.

[Jaws]

Originally Posted by lio45

Adopting the Leap Manifesto and ditching Mulcair, at least they're showing coherency in terms of what they want to become.

Well, they've made themselves and the Greens less relevant with one single policy decision. What is the difference between the Greens and the national NDP?

[*Stardust*]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

Better to have Christy than Glen.

I fucking hated this guy when he was Premier:

amazonaws

Yeah it sounded like everyone hated the BC NDP in the late 90's/early 2000's. It seems like people have forgotten about it though, because Clark's approval rating has been in the dumps for awhile.

[PoscStudent]

Originally Posted by Andy6

I said a "reasonable number of Canadians", not a "number of reasonable Canadians".

Which I don't think is true. I don't believe at all that a lot of Canadians think we should ban pipelines and move towards shutting down the oil sands. Yes there's definitely subsections of the population who agree - seeing it was proposed and passed on to study at a party convention - but I'd think it's quite small.

[Stingray2004]

Originally Posted by *Stardust*

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/britis...rgan-1.3485585

He's the third NDP leader to come out against it. I don't live in BC but I doubt Clark will win again. Isn't she loathed by the Centre to Centre Left crowd?

Actually, BC NDP leader Horgan told the G & M yesterday that he "agrees with parts of LM". Guy is caught between a rock and a hard place as the BC NDP is infested with hard-core enviro types. As a matter of fact, the two fed constituencies that introduced the LM at the NDP convention were Vancouver East and Toronto Danforth.

The BC NDP?

1. Leader Horgan has had numerous MSM documented "bozo eruptions" in the BC legislature - ya know the kind... face goes beat red, loses it... requires members of his own caucus to restrain him. Cue the "Angry John" meme.

Horgan has also made some bizarre comments to the BC MSM... "I have a nicer smile than Clark". "I also have a hard hat in my trunk". "I travelled up north and the people liked me". Don't know about you... but that's super-flaky. The guy is just not electable.

2. BC NDP conventions oppose natural gas fracking. BC is Canada's second largest nat gas producer and it's mostly all unconventional (fracking);

3. A good chunk of the BC NDP caucus opposes nat gas fracking;

4. The NDP opposes BC Hydro's Site C dam under construction. Meanwhile the MB NDP gov't is also constructing large hydro-electric dams;

5. The NDP leader sent a letter a few weeks back to the CEAA opposing the $36 billion Petronas LNG project (against the wishes of even local FNs). As a matter of fact, the contents of the letter confirms that they oppose every LNG project in BC;

6. The BC NDP has opposed every highway/bridge project in BC (Port Mann Bridge, George Massey Tunnel, etc.);

7. The BC NDP opposes base metal mines throughout interior BC;

Frankly, the BC NDP seems to have been hi-jacked by the anti-development/hard-core enviro crowd. Seems that they have already adopted the LM. Quite well known out here in BC.

Hell, just yesterday the BC Building Trades unions held their annual convention in Victoria. A BC Liberal cabinet minister was a guest spokesperson and not only was warmly received with accolades but also received a standing ovation. The next guest speaker, a BC NDP critic, received an embarrassing public rebuke on the podium. Completely inconceivable until recently as the BCBT have been aligned with the NDP for decades.

And ya think that the BC NDP is gonna win next year? Don't know anyone else here in BC (media, etc.) that shares that view.

In fact, looks like the BC Libs will sweep the BC interior, Fraser Valley, Metro Vancouver suburbs, west/south side of Van City proper and a couple of seats on northern Van Isle.

OTOH, many have predicted that the BC NDP will see their worst blow-out since 1969 in terms of popular vote share/seats (aside from the 2001 debacle). Appears that they will be left with 2 West Kootenay seats/3 northern Surrey seats/New Westminster/south Burnaby, and seats in Van City's east side... along with most of the Van Isle seats. Even on Van Isle, Green leader Weaver is quite popular and may take a few seats from the NDP.

PS. BTW caveat emptor on these CA Premier "approval ratings" by Angus Reid. An opt-in online panel pollster and they have major panel recruiting problems here in BC as witnessed by the polling debacle from the May, 2013 BC election. As a matter of fact, the Angus Reid approval rating for Clark was lower in its poll the day before the BC election than it is today. Just sayin'.

[Loco101]

I can't see the Ontario NDP actually endorsing the Leap. My longtime MPP Gilles Bisson would never go for it. And I can't see NDP leader Andrea Horwath liking it as it wouldn't be popular in Hamilton which is where she is from.

[Bcasey25raptor]

Originally Posted by Stingray2004

Actually, BC NDP leader Horgan told the G & M yesterday that he "agrees with parts of LM". Guy is caught between a rock and a hard place as the BC NDP is infested with hard-core enviro types. As a matter of fact, the two fed constituencies that introduced the LM at the NDP convention were Vancouver East and Toronto Danforth.

The BC NDP?

1. Leader Horgan has had numerous MSM documented "bozo eruptions" in the BC legislature - ya know the kind... face goes beat red, loses it... requires members of his own caucus to restrain him. Cue the "Angry John" meme.

Horgan has also made some bizarre comments to the BC MSM... "I have a nicer smile than Clark". "I also have a hard hat in my trunk". "I travelled up north and the people liked me". Don't know about you... but that's super-flaky. The guy is just not electable.

2. BC NDP conventions oppose natural gas fracking. BC is Canada's second largest nat gas producer and it's mostly all unconventional (fracking);

3. A good chunk of the BC NDP caucus opposes nat gas fracking;

4. The NDP opposes BC Hydro's Site C dam under construction. Meanwhile the MB NDP gov't is also constructing large hydro-electric dams;

5. The NDP leader sent a letter a few weeks back to the CEAA opposing the $36 billion Petronas LNG project (against the wishes of even local FNs). As a matter of fact, the contents of the letter confirms that they oppose every LNG project in BC;

6. The BC NDP has opposed every highway/bridge project in BC (Port Mann Bridge, George Massey Tunnel, etc.);

7. The BC NDP opposes base metal mines throughout interior BC;

Frankly, the BC NDP seems to have been hi-jacked by the anti-development/hard-core enviro crowd. Seems that they have already adopted the LM. Quite well known out here in BC.

Hell, just yesterday the BC Building Trades unions held their annual convention in Victoria. A BC Liberal cabinet minister was a guest spokesperson and not only was warmly received with accolades but also received a standing ovation. The next guest speaker, a BC NDP critic, received an embarrassing public rebuke on the podium. Completely inconceivable until recently as the BCBT have been aligned with the NDP for decades.

And ya think that the BC NDP is gonna win next year? Don't know anyone else here in BC (media, etc.) that shares that view.

In fact, looks like the BC Libs will sweep the BC interior, Fraser Valley, Metro Vancouver suburbs, west/south side of Van City proper and a couple of seats on northern Van Isle.

OTOH, many have predicted that the BC NDP will see their worst blow-out since 1969 in terms of popular vote share/seats (aside from the 2001 debacle). Appears that they will be left with 2 West Kootenay seats/3 northern Surrey seats/New Westminster/south Burnaby, and seats in Van City's east side... along with most of the Van Isle seats. Even on Van Isle, Green leader Weaver is quite popular and may take a few seats from the NDP.

PS. BTW caveat emptor on these CA Premier "approval ratings" by Angus Reid. An opt-in online panel pollster and they have major panel recruiting problems here in BC as witnessed by the polling debacle from the May, 2013 BC election. As a matter of fact, the Angus Reid approval rating for Clark was lower in its poll the day before the BC election than it is today. Just sayin'.

pretty much covers reality.

As much as I hate to admit it, the BC NDP is a toxic brand.

This is why I want a BC liberal party akin to the federal party.

I believe the BC Liberals (LINOs) should be forced to change their name so BC Can see a new Liberal party.

As it stands now, I'm probably going to sit out this election and see what happens. I hate all parties equally.