Winnipeg City Transit/Rapid Transit

[esquire]

Perhaps something to consider for Winnipeg's RT corridors?

A city in China is introducing trackless trains that run on rubber tires.

[MalcolmTucker]

Unless they shift the virtual rails around over time, uneven road wear is an issue. One of the reasons many guided systems don't use roads that look like normal roads.

[CoryB]

Pretty sure there are rules written into national transportation codes that essentially say you can have a power unit at the front and two secondary units each with a maximum length of 53' or three shorter units but with the secondary units not exceeding 106' total. There are also rules over the maximum allowable distance between axels as it relates to how bridges are constructed from my understanding. Essentially you don't want the full weight on a vehicle over all its axels on the same span of bridge at the same time or something like that. Never really got into it overly in depth.

That said the train on rubber from China seems very similar in concept to the extended bendy buses Winnipeg Transit already uses. I have long suggested those are perfect for Winnipeg's current and medium term rapid transit needs as frequency is more important right now that capacity at a single departure time.

[Kinguni]

Originally Posted by esquire

Perhaps something to consider for Winnipeg's RT corridors?

No go in the snow!

[LilZebra]

Originally Posted by esquire

Perhaps something to consider for Winnipeg's RT corridors?

A city in China is introducing trackless trains that run on rubber tires.

Erm...Sounds like a a BUS.

[Kinguni]

Originally Posted by LilZebra

Erm...Sounds like a a BUS.

It is a bus. An electric bus with a guidance system. Steering wheel so I imagine it can be taken off the guidance system.

[bomberjet]

http://winnipeg.ca/MatMgt/FolderCont...2017&YEAR=2017

On the Graham Ave paving stone repairs. From these drawings, it seems Transit is removing the sunken paving stones and replacing with concrete. Also seems the granite curbs are being removed wherever the repairs are happening and being replaced with normal concrete. So it will be a mismatch between concrete and granite. Should look fantastic (that was sarcasm).

[LilZebra]

Originally Posted by Kinguni

It is a bus. An electric bus with a guidance system. Steering wheel so I imagine it can be taken off the guidance system.

Oh, that'll work really great under the snow that we get <heavy sarcasm />

[horseman]

Originally Posted by bomberjet

http://winnipeg.ca/MatMgt/FolderCont...2017&YEAR=2017

On the Graham Ave paving stone repairs. From these drawings, it seems Transit is removing the sunken paving stones and replacing with concrete. Also seems the granite curbs are being removed wherever the repairs are happening and being replaced with normal concrete. So it will be a mismatch between concrete and granite. Should look fantastic (that was sarcasm).

Plan is to eventually rehab the entire Graham corridor, replace all the granite. But it has to be done in stages, and these crosswalks are the priority. The granite is on the way out.

[LilZebra]

If I remember correctly, I was still working for Agric. Canada in 2008-09 when the private contractor, JC Paving or some other co. redid most of Graham paving stones and concrete.

What, they're going to do it AGAIN? At what cost???

I believe they're scam artists, who gave the CoW a bad deal with the paving stones and concrete that needs replacement or patching every 5 to 10 years.

[bomberjet]

Paving stones on the bus road are a bad idea. Bad idea on a roadway in general. Concrete will last much longer. I believe the original works were done in 94-95 on Graham based on those tender plans. Most of the concrete is still going strong, albeit a bit worn.

[blueandgoldguy]

Originally Posted by bomberjet

http://winnipeg.ca/MatMgt/FolderCont...2017&YEAR=2017

On the Graham Ave paving stone repairs. From these drawings, it seems Transit is removing the sunken paving stones and replacing with concrete. Also seems the granite curbs are being removed wherever the repairs are happening and being replaced with normal concrete. So it will be a mismatch between concrete and granite. Should look fantastic (that was sarcasm).

That really bothers me. If they do not have the resources to replace/repair the granite and paving stones with more granite and paving stones, then don't bother with it during the original construction. Better to have something cheap in the initial stages that can be replaced by something similar when needed, rather than starting with higher quality materials only to replaced with a lesser product afterwards...resulting in something mismatched as you stated. The latter is extremely tacky!

[bomberjet]

Pretty much. The granite curbs probably wasn't the best decision on a long term maintenance perspective. They're almost 25 years old now.

I suspect we'll see a replacement program over the next few years. Especially with all the streetscaping, SHED stuff, and all the new development proposed along Graham Ave. All the older stuff will likely get replaced. I hope the Transit brand keeps a strong representation on Graham. Make it visible that this is a transit area. Not just blend in with the background.

[CoryB]

Originally Posted by bomberjet

Paving stones on the bus road are a bad idea. Bad idea on a roadway in general. Concrete will last much longer. I believe the original works were done in 94-95 on Graham based on those tender plans. Most of the concrete is still going strong, albeit a bit worn.

You would think Winnipeg would have learned paving stones on streets don't work from their experiment in the 80s (?) in the Exchange.

[bomberjet]

^I guess it depends on how they are installed. On sidewalks, they all have concrete underneath with a thin layer of sand under the stone for leveling. Not sure how they were installed on the streets. If they don't have concrete underneath, that's the problem.

If they ALL have concrete underneath and are still having issues on the roads, just stop placing pavers haha.

[plrh]

Originally Posted by bomberjet

^I guess it depends on how they are installed. On sidewalks, they all have concrete underneath with a thin layer of sand under the stone for leveling. Not sure how they were installed on the streets. If they don't have concrete underneath, that's the problem.

If they ALL have concrete underneath and are still having issues on the roads, just stop placing pavers haha.

They would have to have 6" of concrete minimum. Something you can put rebar in, because bricks have no tensile strength. I know in the roundabouts in Bridgwater there was at least 6" of concrete underneath the bricks. But it could be different on roundabouts than on straight road because of the centrifugal force on the outside wheels.

[bomberjet]

Could be different. But I'd think there needs to be concrete regardless, especially for buses. Even just the difference in stiffness. Going from concrete to gravel/pavers. You get that difference in stiffness and it causes issues. Differential settlement is the technical term.

[pacman]

Originally Posted by LilZebra

If I remember correctly, I was still working for Agric. Canada in 2008-09 when the private contractor, JC Paving or some other co. redid most of Graham paving stones and concrete.

What, they're going to do it AGAIN? At what cost???

I believe they're scam artists, who gave the CoW a bad deal with the paving stones and concrete that needs replacement or patching every 5 to 10 years.

So let me get this straight, the contractor is a scam artist and gave the City a bad deal even though they did the repairs that they were instructed to do in a manner that was designed by the City (their City's consultant engineered the design and the City's engineers signed off)? Can we say misplaced anger?

[pacman]

Originally Posted by plrh

They would have to have 6" of concrete minimum. Something you can put rebar in, because bricks have no tensile strength. I know in the roundabouts in Bridgwater there was at least 6" of concrete underneath the bricks. But it could be different on roundabouts than on straight road because of the centrifugal force on the outside wheels.

Residential streets would have 6 inches concrete underneath, most regional streets have 8-9 inches, and Graham in particular has a beefed up design of 10 inches of concrete beneath the pavers because of the buses.

The concrete under the pavers is fine, it's the pavers themselves that deteriorate because of the bus traffic combined with the freeze-thaw. All the gaps in the pavers allow the melt to trickle down but the concrete below is obviously not porous so the water doesn't drain anywhere. That water then freezes, causes lots of pressure on the pavers and surrounding at-grade concrete, then bus tires continually pound away at roughly the same strip over and over and those pavers fail. It's too bad because it's a high profile location and deserves some cosmetic upgrades, but as designed the pavers will continue to fail regularly.

[buzzg]

Originally Posted by bomberjet

Pretty much. The granite curbs probably wasn't the best decision on a long term maintenance perspective. They're almost 25 years old now.

I suspect we'll see a replacement program over the next few years. Especially with all the streetscaping, SHED stuff, and all the new development proposed along Graham Ave. All the older stuff will likely get replaced. I hope the Transit brand keeps a strong representation on Graham. Make it visible that this is a transit area. Not just blend in with the background.

I agree. I actually love the street/traffic light & decoration design on Graham. However, I hate the way the SHED stuff interferes. It's awkward.