Eliminate our one-way streets - Page 2

fastcarsfreedom · #21 Posted **Feb 25, 2008, 4:50 PM**

I can't believe I avoided this thread for so long. Just when I think the timbre of the threads here is improving I see stuff like this:

Quote
they've done nothing but publish one letter after another from suburban hicks complaining about downtown and the two-way idea

As I read through this thread the first thing I noticed was that the paper had published an article by an accomplished writer in support of an idea that has been touted here as the savior of downtown as long as I've been coming here. Following that article there was general silence as everyone waited for something to pounce on. You all didn't disappoint me.

Do you write Letters frequently to The Spectator? If not I would encourage you to do so--I am a frequent Letter to the Editor writer--and in spite of my crazy/far-out/terrifying ideas about life and politics--I mostly get published--it's a great way to have your voice heard.

Calling people "crazy suburban hicks" will not encourage them to come down and experience the finer points of downtown--it's the equivilent of saying "you people"--it's a generalization and it does your arguments a gross disservice--and no, it doesn't matter if you hear inaccurate things about downtown--correct the inaccuracies and move on.

raisethehammer · #22 Posted **Feb 25, 2008, 5:02 PM**

you're missing my point. They DON'T come downtown....why do I care about someone's opinion who never comes downtown.
Secondly, I don't WANT them downtown. There are tens of thousands of people who love our downtown and invest in it every day. they are the people who matter.
Not some guy watching American Idol everynight and then deciding to fire off a letter to the editor about a downtown he/she hasn't been to in 10 years.
Stay home and watch TV.... I'm begging!

HAMRetrofit · #23 Posted **Feb 25, 2008, 6:25 PM**

The fact of the matter is that streets that primarily accommodate traffic do not foster healthy retail districts with street front stores and patios. This has been proven in every major city around the world over and over again. It is tiring to see the same arguments made for one way streets that are designed to carry automotive traffic efficiently. For a retail district to thrive it requires congestion, transit, and active pedestrian usage. In the downtown, the efficiency of traffic flow should not be put before the economy of the street.

In Toronto this is as clear as night and day. For example streets with thriving retail districts are Queen Street West, Bloor Street, Danforth, College, and Spadina. This is where traffic is two way, relatively calm, and rt or streetcar is favored. On Avenue Rd., Adelaide, Jarvis, and Richmond vehicles are favored, traffic moves quick, sidewalks are narrow, and low and behold this is where retail and business do not thrive. These streets are generally unpleasant to walk along and do not create a unique destination. A street in the downtown that desires to become a pleasant retail or living experience will need to be calmed and need frequent transit, street parking, and sidewalks capable of accommodating two more people walking side by side.

SteelTown · #24 Posted **Feb 25, 2008, 6:29 PM**

I think ultimately the debate in the future will come down to should Main and King become two-way or narrow the lanes down to 3 lanes one way with wider sidewalks and transit lane(s). This debate will especially heat up as the blueprint for LRT will be made for the East-West corridor, so that should be pretty soon if the timeline is 2012ish.

highwater · #25 Posted **Feb 25, 2008, 6:31 PM**

Hamretrofit, send your thoughts to the Spec! I'm guessing they haven't published any LTE's supporting Terry Cooke because they haven't received any. I'd do it, but I gave up writing to the Spec for Lent.

SteelTown · #26 Posted **Feb 25, 2008, 6:33 PM**

In my opinion I don’t think one-way streets is entirely to blame for everything. It just needs traffic calming measures to be placed. Compare King William or even Bay St with Main St and it's completely different.

I would favour 3 lanes one way with a transit lane that’s separated by a median with flowers and/or trees. Cyclist can share the transit lane. Add on bigger and wider sidewalks with new streetlights and everything will dramatically change, I also believe this is the cheapest option as well. Use what you have and just reconfigure it.

DC83 · #27 Posted **Feb 25, 2008, 6:50 PM**

^^ Hmmm, I can think of a couple other reasons why Jarvis may not be pleasant to walk up & down

and it MAY have something to do with Hooker Harvey's! hahahaha

But seriously agree 100% about Toronto. Queen St W is the best example... one can actually WALK faster than taking the Streetcar at some points during the day. I've done it. It's sad. But it works well for the businesses!

Jarvis is pathetic as the middle lane is actually an alternative North-South Lane depending on traffic (kind of like the Sherman Access). Jarvis used to be a GREAT old, beautiful, tree-lined millionaire's row. Now it's just a dump. But arent'y they replacing the middle lane with a Boulevard, Retro?

HAMRetrofit · #28 Posted **Feb 25, 2008, 6:59 PM**

I think that Jarvis is going to get some type of traffic calming measure. I am not sure of the exact plan. Hooker Harveys is classic Jarvis street.

Hess does well as a one way because it is a special destination street mostly designed for passenger dropoff and short temp parking. Main and King are through ways. On these types of streets true two way conversion is typically the best for retail since it gives stores exposure in both directions. At a minimum King should be converted to two ways with street parking on both sides. Main should have transit in both directions. It just does not make sense from a usability standpoint to separate the lines. These changes should be done right from the beginning with people being educated on why they need to take place.

raisethehammer · #29 Posted **Feb 25, 2008, 7:06 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by highwater

Hamretrofit, send your thoughts to the Spec! I'm guessing they haven't published any LTE's supporting Terry Cooke because they haven't received any. I'd do it, but I gave up writing to the Spec for Lent.

they've received PLENTY.
I personally know several people who have sent in letters in the past week.

DC83 · #30 Posted **Feb 25, 2008, 7:09 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by HAMRetrofit

True two way conversion is typically the best for retail since it gives stores exposure in both directions. At a minimum King should be converted to two ways with street parking on both sides. Main should have transit in both directions. It just does not make sense from a usability standpoint to separate the lines. These changes should be done right from the beginning with people being educated on why they need to take place.

I don't know how King St can be put two-way at the "entry-way" at wellington. It's only two lanes at that section. They'll either need to tear down that gateway or deal with massive transit backups... especially with a bus stop that services the 52 Main West & 1,1A King Buses & 10 B-Line all right there. It gets backed up enough now while it's one-way.

I guess once Main St & Wilson are two-way, people will have a choice which way they choose to drive into the core.

And I'll be zooming by on the LRT along Main so it wont matter if there's a bus backup at King/Wellington? haha

raisethehammer · #31 Posted **Feb 25, 2008, 7:13 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by DC83

I don't know how King St can be put two-way at the "entry-way" at wellington. It's only two lanes at that section. They'll either need to tear down that gateway or deal with massive transit backups... especially with a bus stop that services the 52 Main West & 1,1A King Buses & 10 B-Line all right there. It gets backed up enough now while it's one-way.

I guess once Main St & Wilson are two-way, people will have a choice which way they choose to drive into the core.

And I'll be zooming by on the LRT along Main so it wont matter if there's a bus backup at King/Wellington? haha

exactly. no transit back-up at all...the LRT should go both ways on King. People won't use King St to drive through town like they do now...they'll use Cannon/Wilson/Charlton/Hunter instead. And many more will use the new LRT.
King St would function awesome as 1-lane each way with street parking. That strip through IV would become the hottest spot in town.

matt602 · #32 Posted **Feb 25, 2008, 7:17 PM**

I think King should stay one way until James or John, personally. 2 way isn't gonna work in the crowded Intl. village segment. As DC posted, it's literally 2 lanes through the gateway. Main and Wilson aren't gonna be able to handle all the overflow, and some people will still want to/need to use King to get straight into the core. We don't need to go crazy converting ALL of the one way streets in the city. Some of them work fine in their current setup.

HAMRetrofit · #33 Posted **Feb 25, 2008, 7:19 PM**

I think if these measures were taken within two years every storefront along King would be refilled.

SteelTown · #34 Posted **Feb 25, 2008, 7:23 PM**

I would leave King from Wellington to John alone, it works perfectly fine, an example of how one way isn't entirely to blame for everything. From John to James I would reduce the lanes to have it two way from James to Queen. Wellington to East Hamilton it could go two way or leave it and place traffic calming measures with wider sidewalks.

DC83 · #35 Posted **Feb 25, 2008, 7:33 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by SteelTown

I would leave King from Wellington to John alone, it works perfectly fine, an example of how one way isn't entirely to blame for everything. From John to James I would reduce the lanes to have it two way from James to Queen. Wellington to East Hamilton it could go two way or leave it and place traffic calming measures with wider sidewalks.

That would confuse out-of-towners much like how we were duscussing Buffalo earlier. It either needs to be ALL one way or ALL two-way. I'm sure the majority of us prefer the latter.

This way people CAN maneovre around downtown in their cars while being able to slow down and look at the street names without being honked at by 40 cars behind them. Then maybe these visitors will return to the Hammer instead of going around the country complaining about how rediculous our downtown streets are... which they currently do.

steel · #36 Posted **Feb 25, 2008, 7:50 PM**

Buffalo has been systematically eliminating its downtown oneway streets. It takes a lot of time and money because there are so many signs, traffic lights and striping to change to make it work.

SteelTown · #37 Posted **Feb 25, 2008, 7:53 PM**

Cars heading westbound on King won't have any confusion if King St W went two way, it would be cars going eastbound on King, but that will alll be brand new so obviously drivers would be aware soon they'll be approaching a one way street and must turn either right or left.

This has already been approved by council and supposed to start in 2010. No point in arguing about it as it's gonna happen anyways.

DC83 · #38 Posted **Feb 25, 2008, 8:06 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by SteelTown

This has already been approved by council and supposed to start in 2010. No point in arguing about it as it's gonna happen anyways.

I didn't know the one-way part was staying for IV. I thought it was all two-way. That's pretty silly if you ask me.

Let's hope this positive indy-retail trend catches on along King West once converted two-way. I can see King West being a smaller version of Queen West (Toronto) in the near future.

SteelTown · #39 Posted **Feb 25, 2008, 8:25 PM**

To keep the village atmosphere for the IV they've decided to keep the one-way street with curbside parking, as it's working for them.

raisethehammer · #40 Posted **Feb 25, 2008, 9:29 PM**

guys...there are 25, yes that's right TWENTY-FIVE lanes of east/west traffic on main streets from the base of the escarpment to Burlington Street. That's like 2-3 km wide. On the Mountain, all main streets are 1km apart. That means from Concession to Limeridge there are 12 lanes of east/west traffic. And that's a 3km wide swath.
One thing downtown Hamilton certainly can do is handle overflow traffic from King Street. Wilson/Hunter/Cannon all run right into the heart of downtown. We need to break out of this 1950's mindset that the city owes it to me to take me directly from my front door to the front door of my downtown office tower or shopping mall in 6 minutes flat.
Folks coming in from the east can jump up to Wilson/Cannon at Sherman Ave. Its like 500 feet from King to Wilson.
Put through trucks on our ring-road highways to free up even more road capacity.
We could convert them all to two-way, put LRT on Main, bike lanes on Wilson/Cannon/Charlton and be a more successful, vibrant, easy to get around city.