DENVER | Transportation Thread

[TakeFive]

Originally Posted by Denvergotback

I just don't understand where people want to be anti-development... I love my city, therefore, I want to see it thrive and improve. i70 project is a huge improvement to where we are now,

Hmm, where to start? Big picture... Denver is very different from Phoenix (where you're from) which has a Best in Class freeway system. AZ is ofc very conservative while Denver is becoming ever more liberal.

As The Dirt pointed out there are different groups with different agendas. There are plenty of NIMBY's who feel threatened by growth/development. As a fan of preservation of both the physical history as well as the personality of neighborhoods, I share their pain.

For the urbanist crowd increased density is by definition good. The vision is for more walkable-friendly neighborhoods where convenient transit is available to all. I can share their desires.

Over the decades freeways were added to conveniently shuss people through or around downtowns. The belief is that this has often destroyed or stunted a good urban fabric. It's a fair point to make.

The problem with I-70 is its not just a convenient route for cars/commuters; it's a critical east-west corridor for moving goods and services. It connects DIA with the ski slopes, etc. It's an asset to the whole state. When it was built it didn't impact downtown. South of I-70 was an industrial area. Today it's LoDo, DUS, RiNo etc. It's now anathema to ideal urban planning. The fact that Phoenix has had a deck/park tunnel for over 25 years which functions well they don't want to hear about.

Considering how different Denver is from Phoenix (in many ways) it's fair to say that transit needs to play a much bigger role for Denver. More walkable neighborhoods can still be achieved even with a rebuilt and improved I-70.

This too shall pass.

[SnyderBock]

The L line extension will convert this line into more of a streetcar line. It will still use the LRT but only use 1-2 car sets.

With this being the case, would it be possible to add L line "only" station on the end of the loop on 14th?

This would allow people to use the L line to travel across downtown between 14th with stops every two blocks, in a similar way to they can travel between Civic Center and Union station along 16th street today.

Thoughts?

[seventwenty]

SB 1 clears committee but opposed by governor

Originally Posted by Denver Post

Gov. John Hickenlooper’s administration testified against Senate Bill 1, a measure sponsored authored by Senate GOP leaders to spend $350 million in tax dollars to create a transportation bond of up to $3.5 billion.

The administration’s envoys from three state agencies testified in a Senate hearing that diverting that much tax dollars indefinitely could squeeze other government services that need money.

. . .

[T]he Republican-led committee approved the measure on a 3-2 vote — but it bolstered suggestions that the measure will face defeat when it arrives in the Democratic-controlled House.

Democrats remain committed to asking voters for a sales tax increase to raise money to expand highways and improve roads like the failed bipartisan measure from 2017 led by House Speaker Crisanta Duran, a Denver Democrat, and Senate President Kevin Grantham, a Canon City Republican.

[SnyderBock]

The Republicans knew that the entire $350 million on the table being allocated only to transportation wasn't going to gain the support of any Democrats. Yet, instead of trying to compromise a deal that leaned more heavily towards transportation spending but gave education some of the funds as a consolidation to Democrats... The Republicans decided to just make it a pure partisan bill. I wonder what their highway/transit split on this funding is on this bill? Considering they completely disregarded all input from the governor and Democrats, I would assume the funds would also be earmarked for 90-100% highway and 0-10% transit. Just a hunch.

[CastleScott]

Looks like RTD is serious about reconfiguring the 16th Mall-here's something off 9news:
Denver, RTD propose reconstruction design for 16th Street Mall
More than 40,000 riders take the mall ride each day, and CPD predicts that number with exceed 70,000 by 2035.
Author: Denver Business Journal
Published: 11:35 AM MST January 24, 2018
The city and county of Denver and the Regional Transportation District have proposed a design for 16th Street Mall reconstruction.

The reconstruction would push the transit lanes to the center of the street, expand sidewalks, allowing more room for walking and café seating among other activities. Construction would begin in late 2019 or early 2020.

Here's link from the post:
https://www.denverpost.com/2018/01/2...mall-overhaul/

[mr1138]

Originally Posted by SnyderBock

The L line extension will convert this line into more of a streetcar line. It will still use the LRT but only use 1-2 car sets.

With this being the case, would it be possible to add L line "only" station on the end of the loop on 14th?

This would allow people to use the L line to travel across downtown between 14th with stops every two blocks, in a similar way to they can travel between Civic Center and Union station along 16th street today.

Thoughts?

I have been thinking a lot about this route lately as well. RTD published a 291 page report back in Dec 2014 about this. I can't honestly claim to have read the whole thing cover to cover, but I have scanned through the sections, and it gives quite a lot of coverage to alternatives at the "end of the loop" there on 14th. From what I gather, there are some capital construction style changes needed to either put a stop there or simply to increase capacity on the downtown loop itself. Obviously no construction has occurred yet, though this might be something they move forward with when they extend the L line to 38th and Blake.

I think you're absolutely right that the intention here is to convert the Welton line into more of a streetcar-style line, and starting around page 102-103 of that document, it makes this point clear by illustrating several future expansion opportunities that would begin to expand the line into more of a streetcar system. A lot of the obvious choices are shown - the most obvious of which would be a Broadway/Lincoln line to Civic Center (I feel this would make more sense if the Colfax BRT were being pitched as a tram route, but oh well). Also shown are extensions to Auraria, a new downtown loop on 15th and 17th, a northern extension to the Stock Show, etc.

I posed my next question on the thread about the new RTD route map, but haven't gotten any thoughts from anyone on it - I'm quite surprised that all of these options simply assume the MetroRide as a given, and none of them illustrate any extension options on 19th or 18th streets. If the L line were to go two-ways up and down 19th street, with a turn around loop and platform around 18th and Wynkoop, this would free up even more capacity on the downtown loop, and provide a one-seat connection from Union Station to Five Points. Why on earth is this not being looked at as one of the extension options for this line?

[TakeFive]

Diving into the Let's Move Nashville transit plan

The five proposed light rail lines will cover 26 miles at a cost of about $185 million per mile from what I can determine. Sounds realistic at least in today's $'s. Four of the five lines will move along urban corridors for the most part. The proposed taxes are based on a 50-year payback period.

I am impressed with how organized and how well they have rounded up support for passing this transit plan. There is unsurprisingly an opposition effort that is kicking into gear. There's a history here as one might guess.

Demographics appear to work very favorably for this potentially passing. Nashville has a reported population of 685,000 while the metro area has a population of 1.8 million. Here's the sweet part (apparently): Davidson Co where the vote will take place only has a population of 680,000 (2015) so apparently the city of Nashville and Davidson Co are essentially the same. It's a big pill for voters to swallow but it appears the Mayor Barry and friends are doing all the right things.

[seventwenty]

Originally Posted by SnyderBock

The Republicans knew that the entire $350 million on the table being allocated only to transportation wasn't going to gain the support of any Democrats. Yet, instead of trying to compromise a deal that leaned more heavily towards transportation spending but gave education some of the funds as a consolidation to Democrats... The Republicans decided to just make it a pure partisan bill. I wonder what their highway/transit split on this funding is on this bill? Considering they completely disregarded all input from the governor and Democrats, I would assume the funds would also be earmarked for 90-100% highway and 0-10% transit. Just a hunch.

I'm not really that shocked, tbh. It's a gubernatorial election year. The bill has a nod toward rural voters with your 10% token to transit. It's not a sexy gubernatorial gotcha bill, as the Democratic frontrunners aren't in the Colorado legislature.

Originally Posted by SB18-001 summary

Section 6 specifies that state sales and use tax net revenue credited to the state highway fund that is not expended to make TRANs payments and TRANs net proceeds credited to the state highway fund must be used only for qualified federal aid transportation projects that are included in the strategic transportation project investment program of the department of transportation (CDOT) and designated for tier 1 funding as 10-year development program projects on CDOT's development program project list. At least 25% of the TRANs net proceeds must be used for projects in counties with populations of 50,000 or less and at least 10% of the TRANs net proceeds must be used for transit purposes or transit-related capital improvements.

[TakeFive]

seventwenty... Thanks for the summary. The 10% for transit/mobility is from a previously passed requirement ofc.

Originally Posted by CastleScott

Looks like RTD is serious about reconfiguring the 16th Mall-here's something off 9news:
Denver, RTD propose reconstruction design for 16th Street Mall
More than 40,000 riders take the mall ride each day, and CPD predicts that number with exceed 70,000 by 2035.
Author: Denver Business Journal
Published: 11:35 AM MST January 24, 2018
The city and county of Denver and the Regional Transportation District have proposed a design for 16th Street Mall reconstruction.

The reconstruction would push the transit lanes to the center of the street, expand sidewalks, allowing more room for walking and café seating among other activities. Construction would begin in late 2019 or early 2020.

Here's link from the post:
https://www.denverpost.com/2018/01/2...mall-overhaul/

Good Catch. I had guessed/hoped they would choose this option. It's the one that makes the most sense for now as well as for the future. Forget the amount but the GO Bonds allocated a chunk in anticipation of this.

Originally Posted by mr1138

I think you're absolutely right that the intention here is to convert the Welton line into more of a streetcar-style line...

I'd assume they'll look at all those options you mention along with hopefully a subway line but that is still off in the fairly distant future. For now they need the next decade to complete the $930 million in GO Bonds, half of which is for transportation. The there's the ongoing Denver Moves and their pending recommendations for which funding will have to be found.

Originally Posted by seventwenty

It's a gubernatorial election year.

Yup, Republicans are hyperventilating over the thought of winning two parts of the three-headed monster including the governorship.

[PLANSIT]

There will be a statewide ballot initiative for Mobility/Transportation in 2018. It will be a sales tax increase of between $0.005 to $0.01.

[TakeFive]

Originally Posted by PLANSIT

There will be a statewide ballot initiative for Mobility/Transportation in 2018. It will be a sales tax increase of between $0.005 to $0.01.

I'm tempted to take the other side of that bet. Hmm, this potentially has all the trappings of a very entertaining High Stakes Poker Game.

I don't see that proposal coming out of the legislature so there's the possibility of two competing statewide ballot initiatives? I don't even know what that takes, to get a statewide ballot initiative qualified?

I have always asserted that voters would accept higher taxes if it's for a defined purpose that they support. But going against a no-tax increase alternative is what's concerning. If the proposal is similar to last year's (I'd assume) it would likely have more appeal to metro voters and it is the sound, smart way to do business. The (metro) voters may just appreciate the candor and wisdom... and maybe even the rest of the state's voters.

I call your bluff and double the bet. Your move.

[Scottk]

Originally Posted by CastleScott

The reconstruction would push the transit lanes to the center of the street, expand sidewalks, allowing more room for walking and café seating among other activities. Construction would begin in late 2019 or early 2020.

Here's link from the post:
https://www.denverpost.com/2018/01/2...mall-overhaul/

So they will cut down all of the nice trees in the middle of the street.

Sweet

Edit to add: I am all for this and think it makes sense but it is a shame that some of the biggest trees downtown might be lost because of this.

[Denvergotback]

Originally Posted by TakeFive

For the urbanist crowd increased density is by definition good. The vision is for more walkable-friendly neighborhoods where convenient transit is available to all. I can share their desires.

Over the decades freeways were added to conveniently shuss people through or around downtowns. The belief is that this has often destroyed or stunted a good urban fabric. It's a fair point to make.

But isn't there also the other side of that argument? Lets face it, even though we have light rails and buses going out throughout a great portion of the suburbs, majority of suburbanites refuse to take public transportation. In Denver we are lucky that that freeway that was planned to cut through downtown never got built. I lived in Dallas for a few years and I learned a great deal about how freeways can positively affect and negatively affect a great urban core. In Dallas they have a trillion freeways cutting unnecessary all throughout the downtown core, dividing every opportunity to have a great walking community. Leaving core, vital neighborhoods divided and unpleasant to the pedestrian or biker. And killing every and any chance to having a thriving urban experience. You walk downtown Dallas at any time of any day and its almost always completely dead (from a pedestrian standpoint, there are lots of cars driving around). But Denver is much different. Denver's freeways cut through the downtown core at a very minimum and are vitally used to transport people to downtown and less to avoid it. I believe where i25, i70 and US6 all end and meet up are exactly where they need to be to conveniently get all the suburbanites into the downtown area, and because we don't have all the freeways cutting throughout downtown in every which direction, we have a much greater urban experience because of it.

Now after saying all that, going back to the argument above, most suburbanites will refuse to use public transportation. But for our downtown to thrive at its best, we also need them. We need them to come enjoy the big city experience, we need them to come and have dinner and keep these wonderful restaurants and stores to thrive at there best. But they are only going to do that as long as its convenient for them to get downtown.
My parents live in the suburbs out near where Aurora and Centennial meet, 9 out of 10 times they will refuse to ever go down town. There reasoning? They always argue there is no good way to get downtown. i25 is usually a mess, and i70 is beyond need of repair and expansion. Its always the same argument. I've met many others in the suburb with this same mindset.

So if we can at the very least make the trek that much more convenient for the suburbanite, doesn't it also make sense that it will help encourage our downtown to thrive and develop?

[wong21fr]

Originally Posted by Scottk

So they will cut down all of the nice trees in the middle of the street.

Sweet

Edit to add: I am all for this and think it makes sense but it is a shame that some of the biggest trees downtown might be lost because of this.

Totally agree. It does look as if some of the trees will be preserved, but the primary tree canopy from Tremont to Arapahoe looks like it would need to be replaced- which really sucks. Though the overall canopy would be larger at the end of this project by 100 trees. Hopefully they will consider this and work to transplant if possible and replace with trees that have a trunk diameter greater then a pencil.

[TakeFive]

Originally Posted by Denvergotback

But isn't there also the other side of that argument? Lets face it, even though we have light rails and buses going out throughout a great portion of the suburbs, majority of suburbanites refuse to take public transportation.

Great overall comment; nice compare and contrast with Dallas; excellent take on downtown's relationship to freeway transportation.

With respect to 'suburbanites' adopting to light rail it's going to be an ongoing process and more attention needs to be given to first and last mile issues. But there is life in the suburbs and if one doesn't work downtown then for many it will be "why bother" or for infrequent ventures "we'll just drive."

Especially for 'we older folk' the allure of downtown Denver would be different. One advantage with Denver is that the city core is also the focus of most of the cultural arts and sports venues. If your parents live on the west side of Parker then Arapahoe Rd provides good access to the I-25 light rail. Otherwise it's off to Nine Mile Station down Parker Rd.

Once the Central 70 project is completed there will be the express lanes for those who want to zoom along. For I-25 there's little hope for that.

Originally Posted by wong21fr

Hopefully they will consider this and work to transplant if possible and replace with trees that have a trunk diameter greater then a pencil.

Why don't they just plant palm trees? Works down here.

[wong21fr]

Originally Posted by TakeFive

GWhy don't they just plant palm trees? Works down here.

Just till we shut off your water. AZ's basically CO and CA's bitch on this one.

[wong21fr]

I'm going to steal a post from the Salt Lake Transit thread to discuss an issue that needs to be taken care of by Denver (since RTD won't do it): covering the Broadway light rail station. This is the number one station in the system that needs to be turned into an enclosed station with upgraded amenities due to the sheer number of transfers that occur here and because it was the land area to make it happen. Something like this would be the wet dream option:

Originally Posted by Hatman

My ideal, as I have said before, is an ARTIC (Anaheim, California) style station. This station has very few train tracks (2 for Amtrak/Metrolink, with 2 in the future for High Speed Rail), but it has a grand entryway that serves to lift passengers up from street level onto an elevated walkway that connects to the tracks:





I think if we had very simple, yet grand and elegant head-house which conveyed people up to the walkways, then we wouldn't need to move the tracks from where they are. We'd need to build canopies to cover the platforms, sure, but we wouldn't need to incorporate them into a grand train hall. We will never be impressive for having a multiplicity of tracks, but we can provide a great civic space that builds civic pride that is designed to be fundamentally convenient to use.

But really all that's needed is a canopy and some basic ameneities. If we can get a rebuilt Civic Center Station for $31M, how much would a basic glass/fabric canopy, a manned ticket booth, restrooms, and a convenience booth cost?

[CastleScott]

So they will cut down all of the nice trees in the middle of the street.

Sweet

Edit to add: I am all for this and think it makes sense but it is a shame that some of the biggest trees downtown might be lost because of this.

Yah that's sad and since they were planted around 1981-82 and 83 it will take 30+ years or so for the new trees to catch up..

[CastleScott]

Why don't they just plant palm trees? Works down here.

Well TakeFive they could put in steel palm trees like at the northeast corner of 88th Ave and Wadsworth. I bet when the In-N-Out's are built there will be steel palm trees at each joint. Since I live in Sacramento now I'm amazed how the palm trees around here put up with the low 20s temps that happens here during the winter months..

[TakeFive]

Originally Posted by wong21fr

I'm going to steal a post from the Salt Lake Transit thread to discuss an issue that needs to be taken care of by Denver (since RTD won't do it): covering the Broadway light rail station. This is the number one station in the system that needs to be turned into an enclosed station with upgraded amenities due to the sheer number of transfers that occur here and because it was the land area to make it happen. Something like this would be the wet dream option:



But really all that's needed is a canopy and some basic ameneities. If we can get a rebuilt Civic Center Station for $31M, how much would a basic glass/fabric canopy, a manned ticket booth, restrooms, and a convenience booth cost?

Count me in! You realize ofc how my Urban Signature Line would enhance the Broadway Station as a hub and transfer point I assume.

The basics-plus for half of the $31 million?