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  #161  
Old Posted Oct 1, 2017, 8:00 PM
exit2lef exit2lef is offline
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Originally Posted by combusean View Post

That being said, I don't disagree with the new BID formation rules. It's a shame they have to start over, but the initial process, however legal, was faulty and undemocratic. If they can't get it done under the new rules, the BID shouldn't be formed. As for how the BID relates to Angel's Trumpet, I'd probably be annoyed too if I had to spend thousands of dollars in extra taxes a year (that's a lot of beer!) for something I didn't see the results of or felt that I didn't have a voice in the process. The BID managers for downtown, Downtown Phoenix Inc, were my enemy when I lived there for what it's worth. I was in constant opposition to those jerks.
I agree that opt-in, rather than the previous system of opt-out, is more democratic, and I would have gladly supported legislation that changed the system prospectively. In this case, however, the legislation was made retroactive in such a way that it became apparent the Roosevelt Row BID was specifically targeted. Blunders by city staff opened the door to that tactical move, but it was still obnoxious.
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  #162  
Old Posted Oct 1, 2017, 8:07 PM
ASUSunDevil ASUSunDevil is offline
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Originally Posted by exit2lef View Post
Perhaps if were talking only about the Derby and its GPLET, I might at least partially agree. In actuality, it's so much more. It's about his working with a legislator from Gilbert of all places to use legislative pre-emption to undermine the Roosevelt Row Business Improvement District. It's about complaining when the city charges market rates for street parking in order to encourage turnover. I don't hate Angels Trumpet; I still go there occasionally. Nevertheless, the owner's positions on numerous issues, even before the Derby came along, demonstrate a set of values and priorities that are far better suited to 44th St. and Thomas than they are to 2nd St. & McKinley.
Amen, brother.
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  #163  
Old Posted Oct 1, 2017, 11:21 PM
ASU Diablo ASU Diablo is online now
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Originally Posted by ASUSunDevil View Post
Amen, brother.
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  #164  
Old Posted Nov 9, 2017, 3:43 PM
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Lawsuit against city’s use of controversial incentive moves forward

Well definitely not the news we were hoping for...

https://downtowndevil.com/2017/11/09...moves-forward/
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  #165  
Old Posted Nov 9, 2017, 5:23 PM
Obadno Obadno is offline
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Originally Posted by airomero83 View Post
Well definitely not the news we were hoping for...

https://downtowndevil.com/2017/11/09...moves-forward/
Can we run Englehorn out of town now? WTF is his problem?

I mean I understand to one degree, if the Taxes are so high they prevent development they should lower taxes across the board. But that's not really what he wants, He just wants to kill anything tall next to his patio and he doesn't care what that means for anyone else.

What a shit.
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  #166  
Old Posted Nov 9, 2017, 5:59 PM
RonnieFoos RonnieFoos is offline
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Originally Posted by Obadno View Post
Can we run Englehorn out of town now? WTF is his problem?

I mean I understand to one degree, if the Taxes are so high they prevent development they should lower taxes across the board. But that's not really what he wants, He just wants to kill anything tall next to his patio and he doesn't care what that means for anyone else.

What a shit.
Derby will get built with or without the GPLET. The market is too hot right now and they are just holding out to the last possible moment still hoping for the GPLET to go there way. Matt is in a losing battle here. This could have been a 2 story development with no GPLET and he would still piss and moan because he doesn't want his pretty mural covered up.

*Edit. It's funny how he has not said a single thing about Stewart or Link which also received GPLET's. He only has his focus on the lot next door. If Derby was proposed 1 block to the West, he would have never cared.
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  #167  
Old Posted Nov 9, 2017, 6:04 PM
biggus diggus biggus diggus is online now
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You seem mad just because it means you won't see another crane in the sky. He isn't ok with subsidizing their development and you shouldn't be either. I'm not.

As for the patio thing, they've agreed to move the building 5' to the south so he does not care about that anymore.
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  #168  
Old Posted Nov 9, 2017, 6:16 PM
ASUSunDevil ASUSunDevil is offline
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Originally Posted by biggus diggus View Post
You seem mad just because it means you won't see another crane in the sky. He isn't ok with subsidizing their development and you shouldn't be either. I'm not.

As for the patio thing, they've agreed to move the building 5' to the south so he does not care about that anymore.
You're a joke.
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  #169  
Old Posted Nov 9, 2017, 6:23 PM
RonnieFoos RonnieFoos is offline
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Originally Posted by biggus diggus View Post
You seem mad just because it means you won't see another crane in the sky. He isn't ok with subsidizing their development and you shouldn't be either. I'm not.

As for the patio thing, they've agreed to move the building 5' to the south so he does not care about that anymore.
This other crane in the sky adds about 400 new residents which will be spending their money on Roosevelt Row and Downtown and helping improve the economy of the nearby area greatly.

Matt is not saying anything about the other developments receiving GPLET's (Stewart, Link, Block 23, and quite a few other developments), so why is only Derby and no other developments mentioned in this lawsuit? He simply wants nothing next to his business.
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  #170  
Old Posted Nov 9, 2017, 6:31 PM
ASUSunDevil ASUSunDevil is offline
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Originally Posted by RonnieFoos View Post
This other crane in the sky adds about 400 new residents which will be spending their money on Roosevelt Row and Downtown and helping improve the economy of the nearby area greatly.

Matt is not saying anything about the other developments receiving GPLET's (Stewart, Link, Block 23, and quite a few other developments), so why is only Derby and no other developments mentioned in this lawsuit? He simply wants nothing next to his business.
Agree.

I think the judge moved it forward to get some settled case law on it. You can see how quickly he dismissed the other complaints based on other cases. I think what he's trying to do is get this over with once and for all.
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  #171  
Old Posted Nov 9, 2017, 6:32 PM
biggus diggus biggus diggus is online now
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Originally Posted by RonnieFoos View Post
This other crane in the sky adds about 400 new residents which will be spending their money on Roosevelt Row and Downtown and helping improve the economy of the nearby area greatly.

Matt is not saying anything about the other developments receiving GPLET's (Stewart, Link, Block 23, and quite a few other developments), so why is only Derby and no other developments mentioned in this lawsuit? He simply wants nothing next to his business.
it's much deeper than you know about. he's not the only neighbor who opposed the pushy attitudes from this developer who was not willing to work with anyone. they insisted on building a zero lot line building and made him angry (along with other neighbors). giving all those tax incentives was icing on the cake and something a lot of people feel shouldn't be handed out anyway. He killed two birds with one stone. He is saying something about the other developments getting GPLETs or not getting them by trying to stop them altogether.

I'm not in his camp and I'm not in yours either, but your argument is emotional (for good reason) and his is rational for the good of the tax payers and neighboring business owners.
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  #172  
Old Posted Nov 9, 2017, 6:39 PM
ASUSunDevil ASUSunDevil is offline
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Originally Posted by biggus diggus View Post
it's much deeper than you know about. he's not the only neighbor who opposed the pushy attitudes from this developer who was not willing to work with anyone.

As for the patio thing, they've agreed to move the building 5' to the south so he does not care about that anymore.
Ohhhh
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  #173  
Old Posted Nov 9, 2017, 6:40 PM
biggus diggus biggus diggus is online now
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Originally Posted by ASUSunDevil View Post
Ohhhh
Stop it, you're trying to turn this thing into something it isn't.

It took him a lawsuit to get them to talk or negotiate with their neighbors. Only after the suit did they agree to move the building and file for the abandonment.
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  #174  
Old Posted Nov 9, 2017, 7:06 PM
Obadno Obadno is offline
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Originally Posted by biggus diggus View Post
it's much deeper than you know about. he's not the only neighbor who opposed the pushy attitudes from this developer who was not willing to work with anyone. they insisted on building a zero lot line building and made him angry (along with other neighbors). giving all those tax incentives was icing on the cake and something a lot of people feel shouldn't be handed out anyway. He killed two birds with one stone. He is saying something about the other developments getting GPLETs or not getting them by trying to stop them altogether.

I'm not in his camp and I'm not in yours either, but your argument is emotional (for good reason) and his is rational for the good of the tax payers and neighboring business owners.
Is there any reason small projects cannot get GPLTs as well as large projects? Why don't they just open the program to any scale, so you can get one if your remodeling an old house or building a restaurants on an empty lots or putting up a High-rise downtown?

The whole area is still pretty blighted in the space between ASU and Roosevelt, and of course everything to the south and West is still just as desolate as it has been for decades.
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  #175  
Old Posted Nov 9, 2017, 7:45 PM
exit2lef exit2lef is offline
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Originally Posted by biggus diggus View Post
it's much deeper than you know about. he's not the only neighbor who opposed the pushy attitudes from this developer who was not willing to work with anyone. they insisted on building a zero lot line building and made him angry (along with other neighbors). giving all those tax incentives was icing on the cake and something a lot of people feel shouldn't be handed out anyway. He killed two birds with one stone. He is saying something about the other developments getting GPLETs or not getting them by trying to stop them altogether.

I'm not in his camp and I'm not in yours either, but your argument is emotional (for good reason) and his is rational for the good of the tax payers and neighboring business owners.
This is yet another instance of a silent majority argument that has been used here numerous times before. Every time this argument is used, I grow more skeptical. If a large number of local business owners (not just absentee landowners) are truly on the same side as Angels Trumpet, at least a few would have come forward by now with a public statement of support. If no one is willing to do that, it's hard to take their position seriously.
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  #176  
Old Posted Nov 9, 2017, 8:21 PM
biggus diggus biggus diggus is online now
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Many people don't care enough to make a stink about it publicly, especially when they already know Matt is dealing with it. Why put more hands in the basket? Clearly I'm not going to go giving names of people who have not already become public knowledge.

edit: I'm also not making a "silent majority" argument. I'm saying that he's not alone. You don't know whether it's one more person or ten.
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Last edited by biggus diggus; Nov 9, 2017 at 8:33 PM.
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  #177  
Old Posted Nov 9, 2017, 9:47 PM
exit2lef exit2lef is offline
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Originally Posted by biggus diggus View Post
Many people don't care enough to make a stink about it publicly, especially when they already know Matt is dealing with it. Why put more hands in the basket? Clearly I'm not going to go giving names of people who have not already become public knowledge.

edit: I'm also not making a "silent majority" argument. I'm saying that he's not alone. You don't know whether it's one more person or ten.
I probably never will because you consistently decline to provide any evidence. Unless that happens, I'm going to assume the actual number is zero. Besides, if they "don't care enough to make a stink about it publicly," should their opinions be taken into account?
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  #178  
Old Posted Nov 9, 2017, 10:20 PM
biggus diggus biggus diggus is online now
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I don't throw my friends under the bus, that's a good quality in a person. Implying someone is a liar because they won't throw their friends names around is bad form.
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  #179  
Old Posted Nov 9, 2017, 10:39 PM
exit2lef exit2lef is offline
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Originally Posted by biggus diggus View Post
I don't throw my friends under the bus, that's a good quality in a person. Implying someone is a liar because they won't throw their friends names around is bad form.
I don't think you're lying, but I do think you're making a flawed argument. If none of these business owners will take a public position on the matter, then the number of them on AT's side is effectively zero, because their opinions have no influence if they're not willing to voice them.
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  #180  
Old Posted Nov 9, 2017, 11:28 PM
muertecaza muertecaza is online now
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FWIW, there is at least one other person publicly allied with Englehorn from the face of the lawsuit--Bramley Paulin is a named plaintiff who from what I can tell owns some empty lots downtown at 2nd St./Willetta and 7th St./Van Buren. I remember seeing his name in some news coverage of this issue as a vocal opponent of GPLETs.
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