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  #6981  
Old Posted Jan 26, 2012, 9:43 PM
HX_Guy HX_Guy is offline
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The hotel doesn't look too bad...could it have been better? Sure, but it's not a bad addition to downtown. Funny as I was walking around, I saw Phil Gordon also walking around heading from Cityscape to the Luhrs area...all by himself.









They also finished Chloe's Corner...why was I under the impression that it was going to remain a sort of grocery/cafe mix? The grocery part is essentially gone except for some chips, drinks and sandwiches. The whole place is basically a coffee and sandwich place now.







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  #6982  
Old Posted Feb 1, 2012, 5:41 PM
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haha.
from cityscape's facebook page:

Forget your normal routine and join the Downtown Phoenix Ambassadors for a "pop-up park" at CityScape from 11-1 today. Eat lunch outside and enjoy a live DJ, games, books and more!

i thought the plaza in cityscape was a park already....
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  #6983  
Old Posted Feb 5, 2012, 6:00 PM
KevininPhx KevininPhx is offline
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I love this hotel.

This building is a fantastic addition downtown. It's sleek and modern and beautiful, especially up close. Love it.
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  #6984  
Old Posted Feb 5, 2012, 6:14 PM
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Originally Posted by KevininPhx View Post
This building is a fantastic addition downtown. It's sleek and modern and beautiful, especially up close. Love it.
I want what this guy is smoking

Dude it looks like a modern take on eastern bloc

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  #6985  
Old Posted Feb 5, 2012, 7:13 PM
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hahaha it's bad but it's not as bad as that green monster
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  #6986  
Old Posted Feb 13, 2012, 10:44 PM
Phxguy Phxguy is offline
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More news about apartments which I guess are happening.
The developer briefly talks about it at 40 seconds.
http://youtu.be/XCoVw_z2_dg
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  #6987  
Old Posted Feb 13, 2012, 11:58 PM
dtnphx dtnphx is offline
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Originally Posted by Phxguy View Post
More news about apartments which I guess are happening.
The developer briefly talks about it at 40 seconds.
http://youtu.be/XCoVw_z2_dg
That is great news! I wish they talked about a date. "Eventually" will have to be enough for now. So, 240 apartments. What would be the amount of floors needed for that?
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  #6988  
Old Posted Feb 14, 2012, 1:04 AM
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^ There is no way to estimate, really.... but when you think about it, 44 monroe has 200 or so units in 26? actual residential floors.

The theoretical cityscape apartment addition's footprint is somewhat larger, but starts higher, and has 20% more units ...

I think if it does happen and that number is real it will be the new tallest for Phoenix. Rough estimates aside, 540' is what they've been saying all along for the total tower...if they are to be believed yadda yadda yadda.
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  #6989  
Old Posted Feb 14, 2012, 1:49 AM
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^As much as we've all craved for a new tallest for forever, in a weird way I'd rather not have this particular group developing it. As hideous as the design on the hotel and the plaza is, I can't imagine their apartment/condo tower being anything but an embarrassment. Chase is already pretty freaking awful for the tallest building in the State, it would stink to have our top 2 be really bad.

But who knows...maybe they'd hire Eddie Jones or someone like that for the tower, but I doubt it.
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  #6990  
Old Posted Feb 14, 2012, 2:17 AM
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Originally Posted by combusean View Post
^ There is no way to estimate, really.... but when you think about it, 44 monroe has 200 or so units in 26? actual residential floors.

The theoretical cityscape apartment addition's footprint is somewhat larger, but starts higher, and has 20% more units ...

I think if it does happen and that number is real it will be the new tallest for Phoenix. Rough estimates aside, 540' is what they've been saying all along for the total tower...if they are to be believed yadda yadda yadda.
I really doubt that it would be the tallest.

With a 100ft x 200ft footprint , you could possibly get a maximum of 20 units per floor (assuming 16 800-900sf units and 4 1000sf units). That's only 12 more floors. That's the low end.

Or 10 1200sf units with 4 1000sf end units = 14 per floor. That's still only 17-18 more floors.

Or 8 1600sf units with 4 1000sf end units = 12 per floor. That's 20 floors.

Or 6 2100sf units with 2 2000sf end units = 8 per floor. That's 30 floors.

Lets assume this is some uber luxury apartment tower (8 per floor) and that the existing hotel stump is maybe 140ft tall, that means the maximum height of this new tower could be is 140 + 300 + 25 (mech) = 465ft!

The apartment market is strong, but not that strong.

I'd presume that there will likely be some mix like this:
1 penthouse floor: 4-5 units
5 floors with 8 units per floor = 40
8 floors with 12 per floor = 96
5 floors with 20 per floor = 100

That's 19 new floors on top of the stump for a rough total of 140 + 190 + 25 (mech) = 355ft.

This also presumes that the apartment floors take up most of the footprint of the existing stump (which all previous renderings of condos showed it doing).

So while I'd love to believe that Cityscape would someday yield a new tallest, the numbers the way they are talking don't pencil.

Just my thoughts, I'm probably totally wrong, but I really enjoy these types of exercises.
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  #6991  
Old Posted Feb 14, 2012, 4:05 AM
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So there's this information from last August...

Quote:
Originally Posted by azcats View Post
I posted this last August regarding the building activity on top of the new hotel...you may want to read it again..it might help answer your questions:


#6718 Posted: Aug 26, 2011, 11:55 AM
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ok...first...I don't post here often...however, I do read and look at this sight. I think your pictures you guys take...are great...apprecaite you continuing with the pics.

No one seems to know if RED is going to continue building on top of the Palomar (Kimpton) Hotel. So, I called RED - and got ahold of a Keith Earnest. He indicated that he is the person that knows what is going on. He said that the hotel should be open by next April. As far as the continuation on top of the hotel: He said that there have been changes in their plans...however, they have settled on building multi-family (apartments) on top of the Palomar Hotel. Keith said that the design has changed since the original design...and that the building will top out at only about 23 floors - instead of the original 34 floors. Keith also said that there will be some lag time - like 3 months - when they start up on building the apartments...I lost him here a little - however, I think he said that the construction for the aprtments would begin later this year(?) I also lost him a little on the completion date...however, I believe he said the apartments would be ready by 2013. Whether this happens or not...that is what he said. if you want to call and talk to him - call Keith Earnest in RED's (Scottsdale?) office. His number has a 480 area code - so, I am figuring it is located in Scottsdale.
And there's this somewhat recent rendering:


Which also details the absolute suckage of the Palomar's present-day value engineered facade.

Quote:
Originally Posted by plinko View Post
I really doubt that it would be the tallest.

With a 100ft x 200ft footprint , you could possibly get a maximum of 20 units per floor (assuming 16 800-900sf units and 4 1000sf units). That's only 12 more floors. That's the low end.

Or 10 1200sf units with 4 1000sf end units = 14 per floor. That's still only 17-18 more floors.

Or 8 1600sf units with 4 1000sf end units = 12 per floor. That's 20 floors.

Or 6 2100sf units with 2 2000sf end units = 8 per floor. That's 30 floors.

Lets assume this is some uber luxury apartment tower (8 per floor) and that the existing hotel stump is maybe 140ft tall, that means the maximum height of this new tower could be is 140 + 300 + 25 (mech) = 465ft!

The apartment market is strong, but not that strong.

I'd presume that there will likely be some mix like this:
1 penthouse floor: 4-5 units
5 floors with 8 units per floor = 40
8 floors with 12 per floor = 96
5 floors with 20 per floor = 100

That's 19 new floors on top of the stump for a rough total of 140 + 190 + 25 (mech) = 355ft.

This also presumes that the apartment floors take up most of the footprint of the existing stump (which all previous renderings of condos showed it doing).

So while I'd love to believe that Cityscape would someday yield a new tallest, the numbers the way they are talking don't pencil.

Just my thoughts, I'm probably totally wrong, but I really enjoy these types of exercises.
The point to me is that, in the rendering at least, the footprint for the residential tower is much smaller than the footprint for the Palomar. Plinko, you are mistaken, I have never seen the condos occupy the footprint of the palomar, if anything the palomar in early early renderings was the size of the square-footprint condo tower.

In everything I've seen like the above rendering, the apartment tower is definitely not 100x200'. According to the county's satellite photo measurements in the Assessor's web application, the north/south depth is exactly 100', the Palomar is exactly 200' wide. In the rendering, the apartment tower appears closer to 100x100', which doubles all of Plinko's estimates...140 + 380 + 25 approaches the height limit for the site...

Obviously it depends on what they ultimately build, but I would think RED wouldn't compromise the views of its class A office building by building the apartment tower as wide as the Palomar.
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  #6992  
Old Posted Feb 14, 2012, 4:40 AM
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Originally Posted by combusean View Post
In everything I've seen like the above rendering, the apartment tower is definitely not 100x200'. According to the county's satellite photo measurements in the Assessor's web application, the north/south depth is exactly 100', the Palomar is exactly 200' wide. In the rendering, the apartment tower appears closer to 100x100', which doubles all of Plinko's estimates...140 + 380 + 25 approaches the height limit for the site...
Agreed...In all of the renderings the apartment footprint covers about half of the Palomar. It should be a rather tall building when completed. Don't forget that one, possibly two floors will be mostly amenities for the apartments; pool, rec room, fitness center, business center, etc. The only saving grace for this entire project will be the apartment units: that is if the apartment tower is mostly a glass facade like 44 Monroe with pretty nice balconies. It will make a huge difference.

Many buildings in downtown Seattle follow a similar architectural format. It looks OK there because there are so many highrises that the ugly stumps (bases) are hidden by the rest of the skyline. They should have used more stone to enshrine the Palomar. More of that black granite-like material near ground level would have looked pretty nice.
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  #6993  
Old Posted Feb 14, 2012, 4:40 AM
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See...that's what I get for not going back to check the renderings and just trying to remember.

It doesn't necessarily double my numbers exactly, but I can say that at 100 x 100 that a MAXIMUM of about 10 units (maybe 12) per floor. That's the low end. So for 240 units thats between 20 and 24 floors.

With the size ranges they would likely be looking for, to get 240 units it gets kind of interesting...

1 penthouse floor = 2 units (4500sf ea)
3 floors with 4 units per floor = 12 units (2300sf ea)
10 floors with 8 units per floor = 80 units (1100sf ea)
15 floors with 10 units per floor = 150 units (900sf ea)

Using that mix, you get 29 new floors, yielding 140 + 290 + 25 = 455ft

Even doing mix and matching (say...doing 1600sf units), I still don't think that 240 units would yield another 10 floors.

Again, I could be totally wrong here, but I'll be shocked if this ever gets off the ground as a new tallest.

Wasn't Davis hired to do the redesign? That's at least promising if true. Certainly better than Seattle architects trying to design for the desert.
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  #6994  
Old Posted Feb 14, 2012, 4:56 AM
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Originally Posted by plinko View Post
See...that's what I get for not going back to check the renderings and just trying to remember.

With the size ranges they would likely be looking for, to get 240 units it gets kind of interesting...

Using that mix, you get 29 new floors, yielding 140 + 290 + 25 = 455ft

Even doing mix and matching (say...doing 1600sf units), I still don't think that 240 units would yield another 10 floors.

Again, I could be totally wrong here, but I'll be shocked if this ever gets off the ground as a new tallest.

Wasn't Davis hired to do the redesign? That's at least promising if true. Certainly better than Seattle architects trying to design for the desert.
It will likely be over 500' tall. Again, if 44 Monroe is any indication 15 ft ceilings will likely be the norm. With 24-26 floors of residential units, including the apartment "conceirge center" and amenities, it could top off at nearly 530'...

I hope Davis didn't design the Palomar; it would be substandard work for them. Their design for the Downtown W Hotel was pretty damn nice...
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  #6995  
Old Posted Feb 14, 2012, 4:57 AM
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^ Do your measurements account for the center portion of any tower taken up by the central mechanic/stairwell core?

http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/show...postcount=6873

I don't know how much of the core in this is apartment mechanical that continues up and hotel mechanical, that, what, stops? Center core/corridors/etc certainly affects net square feet.
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  #6996  
Old Posted Feb 14, 2012, 5:01 AM
HX_Guy HX_Guy is offline
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34 stories is the number they have said in the past when it was supposed to be 200 condo units. With apartments likely to be smaller, they can probably fit 240 apts in that same 34 stories (that's including the Palomar hotel, not on top of).
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  #6997  
Old Posted Feb 14, 2012, 5:02 AM
HX_Guy HX_Guy is offline
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Remember also that 44 Monroe was built as a condo tower, not apartments so higher ceilings and bigger units.
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  #6998  
Old Posted Feb 14, 2012, 5:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phxSUNSfan View Post
It will likely be over 500' tall. Again, if 44 Monroe is any indication 15 ft ceilings will likely be the norm. With 24-26 floors of residential units, including the apartment "conceirge center" and amenities, it could top off at nearly 530'...

I hope Davis didn't design the Palomar; it would be substandard work for them. Their design for the Downtown W Hotel was pretty damn nice...
15' floor-to-floor is way high. 44 Monroe is 34 stories and 380'....

http://emvis.net/~sean/ssp/height_rules_of_thumb.txt
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  #6999  
Old Posted Feb 14, 2012, 5:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HX_Guy View Post
34 stories is the number they have said in the past when it was supposed to be 200 condo units. With apartments likely to be smaller, they can probably fit 240 apts in that same 34 stories (that's including the Palomar hotel, not on top of).
True, and it all depends on ceiling heights and mechanical and other structural features like Combusean mentions. If the apartments do get built (and all 240 units), it will likely be the new tallest...
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  #7000  
Old Posted Feb 14, 2012, 5:06 AM
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Originally Posted by combusean View Post
15' floor-to-floor is way high. 44 Monroe is 34 stories and 380'....
Not all units have 15 foot ceilings; some have 12 and I think the smallest have 9 or 10 foot ceilings. The 10 floor garage also shrinks the overall height of 44 Monroe...If RED wants the new apartments to be competitive and offer an advantage over their neighbors they will likely offer taller ceilings and nice floor plans.
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