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Old Posted Apr 3, 2017, 6:12 PM
Docere Docere is offline
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Why white parents won't choose black schools

I think this writer is from Atlanta, but it seems to be the case in many US cities (and even Toronto to an extent though with no charter school option).

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The same people who were questioning the school I picked for my girls and starting their own charter school, wanted to talk to me about the This American Life Podcast about segregated schools. They wanted to talk to me about things I already knew. Our schools are more segregated than they have ever been. Our educational system is deeply inequitable. Things are only getting worse. They shook their concerned liberal heads in sadness wondering what they could do. Then they made sure their child got into the very white, pretty affluent charter school that is not representative of their neighborhood. When one didn’t exist, they took their resources and began creating one.

When I am able to move past the anger, the frustration that people are talking about a school they know nothing about, I listen to what they say. Behind all the test score talk, the opportunity mumbo jumbo that people lead with, I feel like what is actually being said, and what is never being said is this: That school is too black.

The people who are moving into my neighborhood want their children to have a diverse upbringing, but not too diverse. They still want a white school, just with other non-white children also participating. They want to go to the Christmas pageant and not have their white sensibilities violated because the other parents are too loud and boisterous and it makes them uncomfortable, for really no good reason. They don’t want their kid to notice her whiteness in Pre-k and then find out while addressing that question, that while they already own great books about diversity, the only children’s books specifically about whiteness are published by the KKK. They don’t want their child to ask them why Quintavious’s sister says she doesn’t like white people. They don’t want to have to wonder when the teacher calls, if they are getting extra attention because white parents are often perceived as overbearing. They want diversity, just not too much.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/abby-n...b_8294908.html
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  #2  
Old Posted Apr 3, 2017, 6:24 PM
Ant131531 Ant131531 is offline
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Most here will probably say the majority of black schools are just low in quality, but there's even white flight from mostly Asian schools(Korean and Indian) here in the Atlanta area and they're actually high quality schools too so it's definitely more than just quality. White parents just want their children to go to mostly white schools. Simple as that.
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  #3  
Old Posted Apr 3, 2017, 6:28 PM
Pedestrian Pedestrian is offline
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People--all people--want their own culture respected and their own cultural norms predominant in the environments they choose. It's true of blacks, whites, Asians and everybdy else. And I don't see anything wrong with it.

One sentence in there really struck a nerve with me: "They want to go to the Christmas pageant and not have their white sensibilities violated because the other parents are too loud and boisterous and it makes them uncomfortable, for really no good reason."

I don't have kids in school but I do ride city busses and when I do, more often than not, there is a clique of black girls aboard talking loudly--shouting really--and using the "F" word 2 or 3 times per sentence. Yes, I am offended by this. It is not my cultural norm. They have a right to behave this way, I suppose, and I have a right to absent myself from such behavior every chance I get. And if one of my chances were to send my kids to a school where it didn't happen, I would choose it.

The fact is, it you want your kids to be a success in our society, you want them to learn how to behave in a white upper middle class world and you want them to be taught in school, uninterrupted by misbehaving fellow students, the things they need to know to get into a good college. It's pretty obvious from statistics on which secondary schools send their students to which colleges in what percentages that it's advantageous to go to a predominently white upper middle class school. Kids who do that are simply better educated in the culture of the successful strata of western society.

So what is the point of this thread?
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  #4  
Old Posted Apr 3, 2017, 6:39 PM
eschaton eschaton is online now
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I'm white and my daughter attends a mostly (but not overwhelmingly) black magnet school here in Pittsburgh. I'd say it's around 70% black now (a mixture of middle class and poor) and 30% white (who are overwhelmingly upper-middle class professionals. I spent a lot of time researching before we enrolled our daughter in the local magnet system. When you disaggregated standardized testing scores by race, and compared the white students in the magnet school to the white students in the top suburban schools, there was no difference in performance at all. Thus I'm confident she's getting a decent education, and indeed she's made major progress over the last two and a half years since Kindergarten has begun.

Nonetheless, white flight continues in the school unfortunately. 15 years ago, the school was 50/50, but every year it ticks a few percent more black. It's a bit surreal going to the PTA meetings. Turnout is around 2/3rds to 3/4ths white parents, who complain about the racial disparity in test scores, and say they are thinking of withdrawing their child as a result.

Sadly, there's nothing I can really do except keep my own daughter in the school (and son, once he comes of age) and hope the school gets more white middle class buy in again.
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  #5  
Old Posted Apr 3, 2017, 6:42 PM
Crawford Crawford is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pedestrian View Post
One sentence in there really struck a nerve with me: "They want to go to the Christmas pageant and not have their white sensibilities violated because the other parents are too loud and boisterous and it makes them uncomfortable, for really no good reason."
There are cultural issues. Low income African Americans (to speak extremely broadly) are possibly more likely to be loud/boisterous in social settings than other groups. It's a minor thing, but perhaps a proxy for other, less comfortable considerations when choosing schools. Among upper class folks, such behavior could be construed as "ghetto" and these folks probably aren't going to put their kids in an environment with "ghetto" norms.

I mean, there are differing social norms. I don't think it's horrible to acknowledge differences. African Americans are more likely to nod and say good morning to strangers. White people almost never do this. I get a head nod/and or greeting from AAs probably 75% of the time when we're passing on a quiet block. With whites, Hispanics, Asians, basically never.

I will experience this issue soon. I have a 4-month old, and we plan on staying in the city, in public schools. We're in a neighborhood where there's a wide variety of school options, and very different racial compositions. I probably wouldn't put my son in a 90%+ black school (but I would in a majority black school, assuming it's good).
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  #6  
Old Posted Apr 3, 2017, 7:39 PM
barney82 barney82 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ant131531 View Post
Most here will probably say the majority of black schools are just low in quality, but there's even white flight from mostly Asian schools(Korean and Indian) here in the Atlanta area and they're actually high quality schools too so it's definitely more than just quality. White parents just want their children to go to mostly white schools. Simple as that.
I actually understand the Asian thing, as an Asian-American myself. Asian majority schools are just too competitive, with too much academic "grinding". It's difficult to 1) stand out from the crowd academically, and 2) have a normal, well-rounded childhood.

Last edited by barney82; Apr 3, 2017 at 8:11 PM.
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Old Posted Apr 3, 2017, 8:05 PM
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Its tough. The truth is, most non-whites also want their kids to go to majority white schools, as they are considered to be the safe, 'good' schools, and supposedly provide their child the best opportunity for future success (I hear this from family members all the time). Also, this being a white nation (power structure-wise), white is the generic, and you assume a minimum standard of excellence will be maintained. The opposite doesnt occur though. Whites dont percieve non-white schools in the same manner, especially black schools, which are looked down upon by all races due to a similar but opposing perception. Liberals are no different, they want the 'best' for their kids, and they want diversity sprinkled in, just not too much because it becomes rather unsettling.

Its only anecdotal, but I saw this when I sent my eldest son to a CPS school in the south loop for grades 1 and 2 (he now goes to a more diverse CPS magnet school nearby that he tested into - the first school he went to was fine, and convenient, but if you know anyting about CPS schools well, it's tough to pass up opportunities like that). The school is like 85% black, and the only white kids there went there because of the gifted program. My son was in regular classes, and being Filipino decent, it was assumed he was also in the gifted program - as why would he be in the regular classes with the black kids? Note there were other non-blacks in regular classes, some hispanic and a couple asian. I didnt mind sending him there as I went to elementary in washington DC in the 80's, so why not send my son to the neighborhood school like I was? After all, we are outsiders no matter white school or black school. (Difference was I grew up rather poor, whereas my son is firmly in the middle class in gentrified chicago)

Basically I think throughout human history there has always been an underlying perception that white people are good - good character, good looking, whatever - and often they are treated better as a result. Look at a white person visiting a brown or black country, usually the reception is very positive, welcoming. Like they are adding something positive to the country. Take a darkskinned person and put them into a white country (or country where the power structure is comprised mostly of whites) and the reception is usually not as positive, if not outright hostile. Like they are adding to the negativity of the country. Look at the underlying sentiments in the racially charged immigration debate in the US right now.


All of this is related. There simply is a perception that white is right and dark isnt. Nothing new here. The only thing surprising to some people is that liberals are not as enlightened as they make themselves out to be at times. And I say this as a liberal.
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  #8  
Old Posted Apr 3, 2017, 8:40 PM
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brickell brickell is offline
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There's a probably a connection here to powerful/powerless dynamics. I read a good article once that I can't find now that examined the change in nursing and teaching from mainly men to women. They found that at some certain percentage, Men fled the profession, quickly. I'm going to guess the number is the same for minorities in a neighborhood, liquor stores on a certain block or kids in a school.

If a bunch of powerless people are going to a certain school or living in a certain place, it's because they have no choice but to. In America this is a white/black dynamic. In other places it's different, but the effects are the same.
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Old Posted Apr 3, 2017, 8:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Roboto View Post
Its tough. The truth is, most non-whites also want their kids to go to majority white schools, as they are considered to be the safe, 'good' schools, and supposedly provide their child the best opportunity for future success (I hear this from family members all the time). Also, this being a white nation (power structure-wise), white is the generic, and you assume a minimum standard of excellence will be maintained. The opposite doesnt occur though. Whites dont percieve non-white schools in the same manner, especially black schools, which are looked down upon by all races due to a similar but opposing perception. Liberals are no different, they want the 'best' for their kids, and they want diversity sprinkled in, just not too much because it becomes rather unsettling.

Its only anecdotal, but I saw this when I sent my eldest son to a CPS school in the south loop for grades 1 and 2 (he now goes to a more diverse CPS magnet school nearby that he tested into - the first school he went to was fine, and convenient, but if you know anyting about CPS schools well, it's tough to pass up opportunities like that). The school is like 85% black, and the only white kids there went there because of the gifted program. My son was in regular classes, and being Filipino decent, it was assumed he was also in the gifted program - as why would he be in the regular classes with the black kids? Note there were other non-blacks in regular classes, some hispanic and a couple asian. I didnt mind sending him there as I went to elementary in washington DC in the 80's, so why not send my son to the neighborhood school like I was? After all, we are outsiders no matter white school or black school. (Difference was I grew up rather poor, whereas my son is firmly in the middle class in gentrified chicago)

Basically I think throughout human history there has always been an underlying perception that white people are good - good character, good looking, whatever - and often they are treated better as a result. Look at a white person visiting a brown or black country, usually the reception is very positive, welcoming. Like they are adding something positive to the country. Take a darkskinned person and put them into a white country (or country where the power structure is comprised mostly of whites) and the reception is usually not as positive, if not outright hostile. Like they are adding to the negativity of the country. Look at the underlying sentiments in the racially charged immigration debate in the US right now.


All of this is related. There simply is a perception that white is right and dark isnt. Nothing new here. The only thing surprising to some people is that liberals are not as enlightened as they make themselves out to be at times. And I say this as a liberal.
thats because they got a liberal arts education but probably grew up in white dominated suburbia so their social experience with other races has been limited to college. sh!ts different in the real city....
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Old Posted Apr 3, 2017, 9:24 PM
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ColDayMan ColDayMan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Roboto View Post
Its tough. The truth is, most non-whites also want their kids to go to majority white schools, as they are considered to be the safe, 'good' schools, and supposedly provide their child the best opportunity for future success (I hear this from family members all the time). Also, this being a white nation (power structure-wise), white is the generic, and you assume a minimum standard of excellence will be maintained. The opposite doesnt occur though. Whites dont percieve non-white schools in the same manner, especially black schools, which are looked down upon by all races due to a similar but opposing perception. Liberals are no different, they want the 'best' for their kids, and they want diversity sprinkled in, just not too much because it becomes rather unsettling.

Its only anecdotal, but I saw this when I sent my eldest son to a CPS school in the south loop for grades 1 and 2 (he now goes to a more diverse CPS magnet school nearby that he tested into - the first school he went to was fine, and convenient, but if you know anyting about CPS schools well, it's tough to pass up opportunities like that). The school is like 85% black, and the only white kids there went there because of the gifted program. My son was in regular classes, and being Filipino decent, it was assumed he was also in the gifted program - as why would he be in the regular classes with the black kids? Note there were other non-blacks in regular classes, some hispanic and a couple asian. I didnt mind sending him there as I went to elementary in washington DC in the 80's, so why not send my son to the neighborhood school like I was? After all, we are outsiders no matter white school or black school. (Difference was I grew up rather poor, whereas my son is firmly in the middle class in gentrified chicago)

Basically I think throughout human history there has always been an underlying perception that white people are good - good character, good looking, whatever - and often they are treated better as a result. Look at a white person visiting a brown or black country, usually the reception is very positive, welcoming. Like they are adding something positive to the country. Take a darkskinned person and put them into a white country (or country where the power structure is comprised mostly of whites) and the reception is usually not as positive, if not outright hostile. Like they are adding to the negativity of the country. Look at the underlying sentiments in the racially charged immigration debate in the US right now.


All of this is related. There simply is a perception that white is right and dark isnt. Nothing new here. The only thing surprising to some people is that liberals are not as enlightened as they make themselves out to be at times. And I say this as a liberal.
Amen.
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Old Posted Apr 3, 2017, 9:30 PM
chrisvfr800i chrisvfr800i is offline
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White parents won't send their kids to majority black schools because they are going with the odds, and with the exception of straight-up fanatics, nobody wants to risk their kids to a social experiment.

That's why politicians in DC send their kids to Sidwell Friends and not DC public schools. Same for Rahm Emanuel in Chicago. ...and yes, it's the same for upper middle class whites.
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Old Posted Apr 3, 2017, 9:41 PM
tablemtn tablemtn is offline
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In the US, the "black/white" dynamic is becoming outdated pretty quickly, which is something that authors and "commentators" in general seem to miss. White kids are a declining minority of the school-aged population, particularly the public school population. In some school districts, they are simply a nonfactor - there aren't enough of them to go around even if the goal were some kind of perfect racial distribution.

It's kind of a failure of imagination among reporters and writers. The way these things are written about, you'd think that school demographics haven't changed since the 1950's, which is the opposite of reality.

The real question for the future of American public schools doesn't involve whites at all, but rather, how will black students and the bloc broadly defined as "Hispanic" get along/integrate/etc.? That's certainly a much more significant question for large districts like LA Unified than any social questions involving non-hispanic white kids.
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Old Posted Apr 3, 2017, 9:59 PM
barney82 barney82 is offline
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Originally Posted by tablemtn View Post
In the US, the "black/white" dynamic is becoming outdated pretty quickly, which is something that authors and "commentators" in general seem to miss. White kids are a declining minority of the school-aged population, particularly the public school population. In some school districts, they are simply a nonfactor - there aren't enough of them to go around even if the goal were some kind of perfect racial distribution.

It's kind of a failure of imagination among reporters and writers. The way these things are written about, you'd think that school demographics haven't changed since the 1950's, which is the opposite of reality.

The real question for the future of American public schools doesn't involve whites at all, but rather, how will black students and the bloc broadly defined as "Hispanic" get along/integrate/etc.? That's certainly a much more significant question for large districts like LA Unified than any social questions involving non-hispanic white kids.
I don't know, it's not 2050 yet. White children are still the bare majority of all children. Some proportion (maybe a majority) of the Hispanic population will end up becoming "white", like Italians did before them. Asians, while not white, come across almost as "honorary whites" in the American context, at least when I was growing up and then going to university.

There is a chance you will keep the white vs black paradigm, or perhaps a better way of putting it is the black vs non-black paradigm. The question is where Hispanics will fit in, and if America can eventually move beyond its historical problems with and marginalization of its black population.
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Old Posted Apr 3, 2017, 10:12 PM
tablemtn tablemtn is offline
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White children are still the bare majority of all children.
They're almost certainly a minority of school-aged kids at this point. From a Department of Education report [PDF]:

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The percentage of school-age children ages 5–17 in the United States who were White decreased from 62 percent in 2000 to 53 percent in 2013, and the percentage of children who were Black decreased from 15 to 14 percent during this time. In ontrast,
the percentage of school-age children who were from other racial/ethnic groups increased during this period: those who were Hispanic increased from 16 to 24 percent; those who were Asian, from 3 to 5 percent; and those who were of Two or more races, from 2 to 4 percent.
As for how hispanics end up "fitting in," part of the failure of imagination has to do with trying to look at questions like those (when they are examined at all) by thinking of "hispanics" as non-agents. IE, however they "fit in" will be determined by external actors.

But the hispanic population is big enough to make its own determinations with regard to a lot of questions like these.
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Old Posted Apr 3, 2017, 10:16 PM
barney82 barney82 is offline
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Originally Posted by tablemtn View Post
They're almost certainly a minority of school-aged kids at this point. From a Department of Education report [PDF]:



As for how hispanics end up "fitting in," part of the failure of imagination has to do with trying to look at questions like those (when they are examined at all) by thinking of "hispanics" as non-agents. IE, however they "fit in" will be determined by external actors.

But the hispanic population is big enough to make its own determinations with regard to a lot of questions like these.
Maybe you misunderstood me, or are answering a broader view. Of course if hispanics do not see themselves as "white" (which is truly an evolving social construct here in the USA), they will not be "white". And anyway I'm using "white" as a shorthand for "mainstream" or non-minority. The term may change to something else besides white.

The other thing is mixed-race people. If someone is half-Mexican and half-"white", will they really think of themselves as a minority? What about half Asian and half white? What about (eventually) half black and half white? There is a pretty high rate of intermarriage these days, which will jumble everything over a couple of generations.
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Old Posted Apr 3, 2017, 10:55 PM
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In the US, the "black/white" dynamic is becoming outdated pretty quickly,
im glad you feel this way, and I agree also, but please tell social justice progressives on the coasts this. hillary tried to run the white guilt play and centrists in the midwest called her out and she lost. in general, there is economic rift that is increasingly widening for both black and white america, and poor folks are continuing to get left behind. that will be the next challenge for our nation, egalitarian economics....
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Old Posted Apr 3, 2017, 11:07 PM
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Maybe you misunderstood me, or are answering a broader view. Of course if hispanics do not see themselves as "white" (which is truly an evolving social construct here in the USA), they will not be "white". And anyway I'm using "white" as a shorthand for "mainstream" or non-minority. The term may change to something else besides white.

The other thing is mixed-race people. If someone is half-Mexican and half-"white", will they really think of themselves as a minority? What about half Asian and half white? What about (eventually) half black and half white? There is a pretty high rate of intermarriage these days, which will jumble everything over a couple of generations.
all of these arrangements will probably not matter once a household reaches a certain income level. democrats made the assumption that they owned the minority vote but looking at exit polls, 30 percent of latinos and Asian voted for the right. as immigrants' household incomes rise, we find many of them end up voting like mainstream white americans (conservatively). if anything, money is our mutual culture in this country and for lots of americans, its about class more than race....we live in a complex society. I remember reading some Chinese party members take on u.s. culture and he was surprised we could get anything done when compared to their mostly, monoracial culture.
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