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  #61  
Old Posted May 7, 2007, 6:48 PM
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Originally Posted by NewYorkYankee View Post
Maybe I should have phrased that better, so here goes:


People of ethnically european descent (the white people, if we want to be crass about it), are seeing their replacement rates plummet to the level I stated (which is the low 1's)


Okay, so maybe the muslims/africans/asians are growing, that's all well and good. But my question is what is Europe's plan to deal with the erosion of it's native people?
What's the problem? How many of today American citizens are descendants of people who revolted against England in 1776? USA is the best example that immigration doesn't really hurts the destination country.
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  #62  
Old Posted May 7, 2007, 9:21 PM
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Originally Posted by crisp444 View Post
And when are you going to learn to respond to people in this forum without coming across as so arrogant?

If you knew anything about me you'd know that I quite often correct people's misconceptions about race and ethnicity. Why are you responding to me as if I have a simplistic way of viewing this? I have studied race/ethnicity extensively and am well-versed in the subject. I challenge you to find something wrong with my statement that Spain is 90% "white" or more. I never claimed, nor would I ever try to claim, that all of the Moroccans or Latin Americans were not "white."

Don't jump to attack people so quickly.
Hey, don't make this about me. You are the one who insists on classifying people by race eventhough the last pages of this thread were about how people are not classified by race in Europe (except for the UK Census categories of "White British", "White Other", "Black African"and "Black Caribean).
Spain is probably 98% "white", what does that say about demographics/immigration though?

And I'm not arrogant nor did I attack you. As far as I'm concerned you are just parroting certain other people who called me that last week.
What I am is fed up with how it seemingly is impossible to have a normal debate on European issues on here.
Mention France and without failure you'll either see the words "socialist" or "riots" or both within a couple of posts. "Demographics" and "Europe" is an open invitation for some dude to show up claiming how "it's projected that Germany and Italy will have their populations plummet before 2050" (!)
Well that theory was proven wrong last year (Italy added 300,000) and we still have 43 years to go.
It's ridiculous...

I have nothing against you and I know of your connection with Spain, but why mention Spain is 90% white when that is totally besides the point?
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  #63  
Old Posted May 7, 2007, 9:30 PM
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Shiro, there are many biased and/or ignorant forumers, but I think you are being a bit sensitive.

There's more than a grain of truth to both topics. Germany's population IS declining (I have no idea what's going on in Italy) and any mention of Sarkozy will lead to discusssion of his defining moment during the 2005 unrest.
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  #64  
Old Posted May 7, 2007, 9:44 PM
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Originally Posted by look View Post
What's the problem? How many of today American citizens are descendants of people who revolted against England in 1776? USA is the best example that immigration doesn't really hurts the destination country.
The "issue" for me is that Germany is changing to a multicultural society, (which is completely necessary for prosperity), but I feel a loss of cultural heritage.

For me it's personal stuff, like the fact that it's getting difficult to find good German food in major cities (German food is "uncool" for German natives and immigrants generally open their own places) or that German values of tidiness, punctuality, etc. are disapperaing.

The end result is that Germany is as prosperous as ever, but feels almost indistinguishable from the U.S., the U.K., or wherever. Globalization makes all places seem a little less unique.

I'm selfishly a little happy that Southern and Eastern Europe are (so far) not as multicultural. I would hate for Naples to feel like an indistinct mix of peoples (like current Frankfurt or Rotterdam). At that point, I feel I might as well stay here in Brooklyn because everywhere else is pretty much the same.
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  #65  
Old Posted May 7, 2007, 11:19 PM
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Originally Posted by SHiRO View Post
Mention France and without failure you'll either see the words "socialist" or "riots" or both within a couple of posts. "Demographics" and "Europe" is an open invitation for some dude to show up claiming how "it's projected that Germany and Italy will have their populations plummet before 2050" (!)
Well that theory was proven wrong last year (Italy added 300,000) and we still have 43 years to go.
It's ridiculous...

I have nothing against you and I know of your connection with Spain, but why mention Spain is 90% white when that is totally besides the point?

France has a serious public relations problem here in the United States. Thankfully, the US media and political talking heads are singing the prasies of their new president and the whole freedom fires thing has calmed down.


As for my population posts, I'm sooooooo sorry I don't read the EU's censuses religously . All I know is the BBC did a several part series on the changing demographics of Europe and Merkel made it a central part of her campagin. WHO's own reports show the charts and Europe's population slice of the pie is going down. I agree with the above poster that Europe should try to preserve it's heritiage and it's own people.


BTW, is your number an actual census figure? Or something you pulled off the economist or something?
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  #66  
Old Posted May 7, 2007, 11:36 PM
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http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showth...opulation+2005

And if you don't read the EU's censuses religiously, why are you commenting about "Europe's" supposed decline?

What strikes me is that it are strictly non Europeans here who are "worried" that native Europeans (whatever they mean by that) are going to die out and that Europe is going to lose its culture...

Sorry but Rotterdam is still very much a Dutch city even with 50+% of its inhabitants being non Dutch as is the case now.

And if I'm being too sensitive, please link me to a thread on this forum about Europe that doesn't descent into myths and uninformed "opinions" on the very first page.
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  #67  
Old Posted May 8, 2007, 2:23 AM
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Originally Posted by SHiRO View Post
What strikes me is that it are strictly non Europeans here who are "worried" that native Europeans (whatever they mean by that) are going to die out and that Europe is going to lose its culture...
I guess that many Americans of European descent have subconscious worries about the increasing non-white immigration to the US. Traditionally though they could at least take comfort in the phantasy that there will always be a large pool of whites in Europe to draw immigrants from, should the number of whites in the US dwindle too much. But seeing reports about the increasing ethnic diversification in Europe is destroying that comforting phantasy which in turn increase worries in US whites about their position in their own country.
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  #68  
Old Posted May 8, 2007, 2:30 AM
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I wouldn't worry, we'll always have Eastern Europe.

My photo from Warsaw's Praga district last month - not a face that doesn't "belong" there. After a number of years in multi-culti Toronto, I felt right at home. Everyone there looked like me, dressed like, behaved like me - don't get me wrong but it was a REAL refreshment

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  #69  
Old Posted May 8, 2007, 3:14 AM
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I can't figure out if you are being sarcastic.
Knowing you, you aren't even kidding, right...
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Last edited by SHiRO; May 8, 2007 at 3:22 AM.
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  #70  
Old Posted May 8, 2007, 3:55 AM
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Nah, carry on...i just wanted to show off with a nice Warsaw photo taken by me, myself and I
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  #71  
Old Posted May 8, 2007, 4:01 AM
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I hope you noticed the big "Kebab" sign.

Hmm Polish food...
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  #72  
Old Posted May 8, 2007, 4:07 AM
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Shiro,

I apologize for being rude to you. I was just a little upset with your response after I made a factual, non-offensive statement in response to someone else. You're right that classifying people in Europe by race does not take into account fully the amount of immigration certain regions have experienced recently. Even my family in Spain is not Spanish by birth (they are from Argentina). However, even if the percentage "white" / "light-skinned Caucasian" or whatever you want to call it may not be as relavent to this discussion as the numbers of immigrants coming into Spain, I feel obliged to dispell non-factual information about said country when I have the chance to do so. I agree that lots of things posted on here by Americans are terribly misinformed or non-factual, but this is really a two-way street: I have heard some horrendously untrue things said by Europeans about the United States. Having discussions like this (that involve people from both sides of the Atlantic) help us all to be better informed if the information exchanged is honest, relavent, and true. That's all.
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  #73  
Old Posted May 8, 2007, 4:26 AM
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I don't see why race seems to be taboo in Europe...Taking tabs on race must be un-PC there, and I don't see why! I guess it must be because sizeable populations of nonwhites is relatively recent. Since America's conception, we have never been less than 10% nonwhite (and were at 1/3 nonwhite now). And not that anyone cares, but generally Turks are considered white, at least where I am from. Obviously the US and Europe have vastly different opinions on race basically here, if you are not less than half black, Mexican/Central American, Asian, or Native American, you are considered white.
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  #74  
Old Posted May 8, 2007, 1:51 PM
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I guess that many Americans of European descent have subconscious worries about the increasing non-white immigration to the US. Traditionally though they could at least take comfort in the phantasy that there will always be a large pool of whites in Europe to draw immigrants from, should the number of whites in the US dwindle too much. But seeing reports about the increasing ethnic diversification in Europe is destroying that comforting phantasy which in turn increase worries in US whites about their position in their own country.
Uhhh....no. If for anything, this half-white kid wants to move TO Europe. My main interest is in the anthropology of it all. All kinds of people make the world go 'round and I am simply curious as to why Europeans seem none to keen on keeping themselves in the game.


Hey, if America turned all non-white, then it wouldn't really bother me. I just don't want to see the world lose more diversity. I would say the same things if it was Chinese declining in China.
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  #75  
Old Posted May 8, 2007, 3:25 PM
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Give it a couple of millenniums and the global warming will take care of the white people.

Anyway, all this talk of Europe being overrun by immigrants is total bull, as Europe has been overrun by immigrants for the last 35 000 years.
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  #76  
Old Posted May 8, 2007, 4:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
The end result is that Germany is as prosperous as ever, but feels almost indistinguishable from the U.S., the U.K., or wherever. Globalization makes all places seem a little less unique.
That fear is baseless. All the countries you mentioned will still be quite different in the future as Germany will be populated by German speaking Turks, the UK by English speaking Pakistanis and the US by Spanish speaking Latinos.
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  #77  
Old Posted May 8, 2007, 10:28 PM
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Originally Posted by crisp444 View Post
Shiro,

I apologize for being rude to you. I was just a little upset with your response after I made a factual, non-offensive statement in response to someone else. You're right that classifying people in Europe by race does not take into account fully the amount of immigration certain regions have experienced recently. Even my family in Spain is not Spanish by birth (they are from Argentina). However, even if the percentage "white" / "light-skinned Caucasian" or whatever you want to call it may not be as relavent to this discussion as the numbers of immigrants coming into Spain, I feel obliged to dispell non-factual information about said country when I have the chance to do so. I agree that lots of things posted on here by Americans are terribly misinformed or non-factual, but this is really a two-way street: I have heard some horrendously untrue things said by Europeans about the United States. Having discussions like this (that involve people from both sides of the Atlantic) help us all to be better informed if the information exchanged is honest, relavent, and true. That's all.
No worries! And no need to apologize either.

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  #78  
Old Posted May 10, 2007, 12:45 AM
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Foreigners living in Germany in 2006 (Note: these numbers do not include persons who immigrated to Germany and have gained the German citizenship - only holders of foreign passports are included)

Overall: 6.751.002

Turkey: 1.738.831
Italy: 534.657
Poland: 361.696
Greece: 303.761
Serbia: 282.067
Croatia: 227.510
Russia: 187.514
Austria: 175.653
Bosnia & Herzegovina: 157.094
Netherlands: 123.466
Portugal: 115.028
Spain: 106.819
France: 104.085
United States: 99.265
United Kingdom: 96.507
Vietnam: 83.076
China: 75.733
Iraq: 73.561
Romania: 73.353
Morocco: 69.926
Montenegro: 62.295
Iran: 58.707
Hungary: 52.347
Afghanistan: 52.162
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  #79  
Old Posted May 10, 2007, 12:56 AM
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So the situation is like this in Germany:

Overall: 6.751.002

Turkey: 1.738.831

Yugoslavs: 728900 (without Slovenes & Macedonians)

Italy: 534.657
Poland: 361.696
Greece: 303.761
Russia: 187.514
Austria: 175.653
Netherlands: 123.466
Portugal: 115.028
Spain: 106.819
France: 104.085
United States: 99.265
United Kingdom: 96.507
Vietnam: 83.076
China: 75.733
Iraq: 73.561
Romania: 73.353
Morocco: 69.926
Iran: 58.707
Hungary: 52.347
Afghanistan: 52.162


I believe the real numbers are even higher than these "official" statistics.
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  #80  
Old Posted May 17, 2007, 9:02 AM
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Back to my original simple question.
Does anyone have a wild/educated/uneducated guess as to the racial demographics of the whole of Europe at this point. Europe is what? over 700 million people. I'm guessing it's around 90-95% white. And for the immigrants in certain countries that didn't come from another European country, I would only include Turks and Israelis as being white. Syria and Iran have many white looking people but not enough to generalize them as being majority white. Any ideas? Guess, I don't care, I'm just looking for a gross idea. Thanks again guys.
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