New Downtown Calgary Arena

[H.E.Pennypacker]

Originally Posted by RyLucky

Here's my 20 minute sketch-up that shows how you could solve some of the problems with KK's design.

This is a nice quick revision to the concept plan although I don't like the idea of having WB Bow Trail running alongside the stadium ... Because it's a heavy traffic main route, it really would cut off from the development to the north and make it difficult for pedestrian interaction (not to mention dangerous when there are events are the new facility).

I would look to bury that segment of WB Bow Tr under the other side of bleachers as well, and use that space above grade to expand the pedestrian realm to improve vibrancy during non-event days and make it easy for pedestrians to walk around. Further to that it would open up the possibility for a larger plaza with the greenspace to the north. The corridor on the north side of the development could branch off of Bow Trail (via an interchange - help moderate speed) to be a one-way Stephen Ave type of street extending all the way west into the existing planned West village by the river.

[Innersoul1]

Okay, I have taken my time to mull this one over and consider all of the opinions that have been put forth. There has been lots of good dialogue and points to consider. By no mean am I an expert on any of this. Many of you have a much better knowledge of the nuances of the funding model, so I won't spend much time commenting on that. Below are some thought that I have.

Concept and Design
Ultimately, I think that we have to keep reminding ourselves that this is just a vision for the area. I am disappointed that the Flames didn't put more effort into this portion of things. As a number of you have pointed out, it just doesn't have a wow factor. I agree that cooperation amongst the forumers and out individual areas of expertise could have resulted in a much better concept design and presentation. That sketchup of the arena is about as shit as it comes. I am teaching a design class to grade 8 students this summer and the ARE doing better than that.

-I hope that they go with the ETFE roof that is translucent for the stadium. Obviously this isn't an option for the arena. But the translucent roof certainly adds to the wow factor and natural light is a wonderful thing for a year round facility. That being said I think that the orientation of the structure needs to change. I think that it would be much better if the complex ran north-south as the central adjoining area could facilitate flow through the building to the east and west residential and commercial areas.

-While I previously was a proponent of having the complex abutting the river I feel that this is a waste of precious space. I really like what RyLucky proposed with having the stadium as far south as possible. Thats good thinking and REALLY helps with the flow.

-There is a part of me that feels that this whole design and concept is just a feeler to see what the appetite of Calgarians and the various levels of government appetite is for an expenditure like this. I mean REALLY if you are going to propose a 900 million dollar project and haven't sought the expertise of an architect or a planner how can you be taken seriously!? If this proposal had come out with the support of some kind of design expertise and expert rendering whether they be conceptual or not it would really do a better job of winning over the public.

Remediation and Bow Trail
Who will cover the cost of remediation is obviously a BIG grey area. However, if they have to completely remove soil and dig a big pit, wouldn't this just organically facilitate the realignment of Bow Trail? We have established that tunneling would be costly, but couldn't a cut an cover method work especially if the tunnel was enclosed or partially enclosed by the stadium? I definitely agree that a Bow Trail alignment is a must.

Parking
I don't think that large swaths of parking would be needed. Some parking could definitely be facilitated underground. Most Stadia use underground parking for their club and box seat holders. But this would certainly facilitate people parking in various locations downtown and filtering into the West Village area. It might just add a bit more vibrancy into the core.

Anyway, just some thoughts.

[nick.flood]

delete

[Cage]

Originally Posted by Bigtime

We could have been given the "concept" 2 years ago, for all that waiting I was expecting more on the detail side of things.

Originally Posted by Ramsayfarian

Exactly. Seems like the only thing they worked on was their song and dance.

Considering the business acumen of the individuals involved, I have to come to the conclusion there are many untold stories and failed ideas the flames have explored over the past 2-5 years.

I liken the Calgary Next proposal to YYC Airports adventures in expanding the international facilities. The first version of the international facilities project was merely a large 15 gate extension onto the current B concourse. But this plan was inadequate for the central processor functions of checkin, bag processing, customs, etc. Version 2.0 is what is under construction. However in order to solve the central processor problems there is a huge efficiency impact on the air side. AC and WS will no longer be able to efficiently transfer aircraft from domestic to International/transborder and vice versa.

Learning from the YYC Airport experience, I believe it would be beneficial for the Flames/KK to provide a lot more information on the failed concepts. This would be particularly helpful from a financing perspective.

Originally Posted by ByeByeBaby

If you went to any one of the millionaire/billionaire businessmen who are owners of this hockey club with a proposal this thinly and half-assedly thought out asking for half a billion dollars in investment, do you really think they would treat it seriously?

Talking to a fifteen member board of directors is way different than talking to 15,000 season ticket holders while also being mindful the 1.2 million person city is also watching.

Two big differences:
- The Board members are guided by fiduciary duty to act in best interests of the Shareholders they represent. Boards also tend to be of singular mind, by which I mean they all think alike. This is impossible anytime someone decides to engage the general public.
- Much like city council, board members must approach every item with an open mind, general public on the other hand frequently is close minded.
- Third difference, Board must be highly educated about the topic at hand (e.g. the Audit Committee must possess financial literacy), general public has no such requirement.

Originally Posted by MalcolmTucker

It is a damned if you do damned if you don't. They want to get feedback and revise, and work with existing organizations. Sort of hard to do so with an ever widening amount of non-disclosure agreements to get to the point of an announcement where people will yell about how everything has already been decided and it is an affront to not have held public consultations earlier to help develop the concept more.

If what KK wanted was to get feedback and revise then he should not have:
- said there is no plan B.
- come together with finance plan/slides/ideas.
- Come to the meeting without hard dollar costs for stadium and arena.
- Held the meeting in the middle of August at time when the Mayor and rest of Calgary is on summer vacation.

Originally Posted by Bigtime

The John Oliver bit on stadiums has been posted right?

That John Oliver piece has inundated my social media feeds. If I had a dollar for each time someone in my feeds has posted it, I could fund the ticket tax and CRL out of my lunch money.

[Surrealplaces]

Not that I'm arguing the case, but how would Rexall place be way busier than the Saddledome? Both arenas have almost the same number of events. Rexall gets a few concerts that we don't, and also a week of Canadian finals Rodeo, but the Dome also gets higher attendance numbers on NHL, WHL, and Lacrosse.

Originally Posted by MalcolmTucker

When you look at stadiums, they are uneconomic to build in most markets. At 375,192 event tickets a year (which may or may not include Lacrosse tickets since it was different owners) and 690,399 Oilers tickets, 242,745 Oil King tickets, Rexall is one of the busiest arenas in north america, way busier than the Saddledome. To pay off $600 million dollars, ($30 - $34 million a year in payments for interest rates of 2.88 and 3.88%) you would need a ticket tax/profit captured by the arena per event ticket of $23 an event to pay off the arena in 30 years. That is in addition to the cost to actually run the building (let us be generous and assume a low number of another $10 per ticket per event) and accommodate the event (even more).

[O-tacular]

Originally Posted by Bokimon

I'm glad my ranting post earlier somehow started something. Though a bit off handed in my comments, but I believe I raise a decent point about the mentality of the ownership culture and the way they presented themselves when showing off this huge game changing project to the public. The Monorail episode of the Simpsons reflects very similar to this project, a comparison that I agree. I just don't want us to end up footing the bill or getting shafted in some way while only these guys benefit during the lifetime of the facility. When they only are committed to pitching in a fraction of the total cost, it brings a worrying tone to the long term viability of a fancy new facility. Maybe the city does pay for it and charge rent to the teams to recoup all those public funds?
If the intent of this was to show off the conceptual idea of what the facility would look like or how they would function together, and who would be paying for this, then I guess they did their job. Though I personally disagree.

I would of at least hired an architectural firm to do some preliminary design work and urban planning studies to at least expose the potential challenges that will come up if this complex gets built. Ontop of that a firm can produce much more detailed and realistic renders as well suitable for media and public release.

You beat me to it. After seeing the presentaiton I actually had Phil Hartman's voice in my head going "What's that word? Monorail!".

[MalcolmTucker]

Originally Posted by Surrealplaces

Not that I'm arguing the case, but how would Rexall place be way busier than the Saddledome? Both arenas have almost the same number of events. Rexall gets a few concerts that we don't, and also a week of Canadian finals Rodeo, but the Dome also gets higher attendance numbers on NHL, WHL, and Lacrosse.

A company, Pollstar, tracks this (found a more current list just now to link to, I think my numbers for events were 2013 numbers). The big difference is on the event side.

http://canadianmusician.com/blog/201...nues-globally/

2014 numbers:
11- Air Canada Centre – Toronto, ON (584,729 tickets)

31- Bell Centre – Montreal, QC (442,710 tickets)

33- Rexall Place – Edmonton, AB (405,408 ticket)

64- MTS Centre – Winnipeg, MB (241,045 tickets)

65- Canadian Tire Centre – Ottawa, ON (237,055 tickets)

66- Rogers Centre – Vancouver, BC (224,400 tickets)

68- Scotiabank Saddledome – Calgary, AB (210,727 tickets)

83- Budweiser Gardens – London, ON (160,160 tickets)

85- SaskTel Centre – Saskatoon, SK (155,655 tickets)

[suburbia]

The piece I want to zone in on is the impact on the district plan. Unfortunately, the limited size of West Village, and in particular, geometry that leaves the N-S distance very limited (particularly given road needs) is very close to a show-stopper for me. This is where a clean slate of much better size, like Firepark, is much superior.

[Innersoul1]

Originally Posted by H.E.Pennypacker

This is a nice quick revision to the concept plan although I don't like the idea of having WB Bow Trail running alongside the stadium ... Because it's a heavy traffic main route, it really would cut off from the development to the north and make it difficult for pedestrian interaction (not to mention dangerous when there are events are the new facility).

I would look to bury that segment of WB Bow Tr under the other side of bleachers as well, and use that space above grade to expand the pedestrian realm to improve vibrancy during non-event days and make it easy for pedestrians to walk around. Further to that it would open up the possibility for a larger plaza with the greenspace to the north. The corridor on the north side of the development could branch off of Bow Trail (via an interchange - help moderate speed) to be a one-way Stephen Ave type of street extending all the way west into the existing planned West village by the river.

What if they trenched WB Bow Trail along the stadium and residential portion? Above could be a pedestrian plaza as you suggested that connects to the northern residential and river walk area.

[The Fisher Account]

Originally Posted by Cage

That John Oliver piece has inundated my social media feeds. If I had a dollar for each time someone in my feeds has posted it, I could fund the ticket tax and CRL out of my lunch money.

Hahahahahah

[dazzlingdave88]

Originally Posted by Cage

That John Oliver piece has inundated my social media feeds. If I had a dollar for each time someone in my feeds has posted it, I could fund the ticket tax and CRL out of my lunch money.

Your point?

You don't agree with it?

You don't like hearing it?

[MalcolmTucker]

I agree with Oliver's piece entirely. The main benefit of an arena is having an arena. The city would recover a bit of the entertainment spending leakage to Vancouver, Seattle, and Edmonton but the number would be pretty small. Otherwise local spending is just displaced from non-arena based entertainment.

The field house amateur component likely would have a much higher economic impact mostly from tourism but it wouldn't be a huge number either in the context of all tourism.

That isn't to say I disagree with public support for this project. There are lots of goods as citizens consume that cannot be sustained by the private economy. We do not expect leisure centres to cover their capital costs even though heavy users would probably opt to build more facilities like the Winter Club to support them if the city retreated from public provision.

The public policy question is without this facility or ones like it (assuming the dome will eventually need to be life cycled at a high cost and that McMahon can probably continue indefinitely, and that the field house in some form will be built so you can discount all the benefits and costs from it except the increase in capacity from 10k to 30k) will we have an under provision of entertainment below what the public would like to consume, at a price they can afford?

I don't think support for this project is unreasonable just as I don't think support for a redevelopment of the Creative Commons is unreasonable. Both are responses to the difficulty of providing a service at a price people are willing to pay. Do we need to have an economic impact statement from the symphony orchestra and the Jack Singer to want to support them? Or do we just need to know that there is no way that it would work on its own without government support?

Does society receive an intangible benefit from these activities that we would miss if they did not exist? I think so.

[Bokimon]

I like some of the sketches showing Bow Tr. West bound being moved down to align with the eastbound lanes, it frees up all that extra space to provide greater flex room for the urban design.

Even better, I love the idea of encasing Bow Tr in a tunnel or underground. Think of the Alaska Viaduct in Seattle how this major route runs right beneath belltown and then comes out flying along the harbor, though it killed any hopes of vibrancy in the area by blocking off downtown to the water, it does the job by providing ample room to build out lower downtown with all sorts of housing and mixed use projects while keeping the major road (an eyesore) hidden beneath. They may not have a stadium or arena in Belltown but there is the Seattle Center complex which draws a ton of people, many locals simply walk a few blocks with relative ease without worrying about expressways impeding their travel. Having the Bow Tr. artery encased opens up the maximum room available to really design this project the right way.
I don't just see it as a new home for our sports team but this really is the West Village urban revitalization that the flames owners are trying to envision. But maybe it might of been too big of a task as they inadvertently are going to affect so many other aspects of this neighborhood requiring additional research and studies of its own such as the transportation and urban design. I admit, this is a very challenging project and is more complex than EV.

[B-side]

Originally Posted by artvandelay

This is a bit of a misrepresentation. Regardless of how the ticket levy is financed, the CS&E will be footing the bill for that as well. So the total give from Flames ownership is $450 million or 51% of the total project cost.

Then they should offer up $450M in total (by financing $250M on their own) and eliminate the ticket tax altogether. They would just raise their prices to recoup their principle and borrowing costs. In that case, they really are footing the bill. Why complicate things with a ticket tax?

[milomilo]

If burying Bow is completely impossible, then elevated pedestrian walkways could be a good option.

The Melbourne Olympic Park has a huge railway line and roads going through it, but it has large/wide aerial walkways and plazas so you never need to cross any roads.

https://www.google.ca/maps/place/Mel...!6m1!1e1?hl=en

[milomilo]

Originally Posted by B-side

Then they should offer up $450M in total (by financing $250M on their own) and eliminate the ticket tax altogether. They would just raise their prices to recoup their principle and borrowing costs. In that case, they really are footing the bill. Why complicate things with a ticket tax?

I guess this ticket tax would be added to all events at the arena, not just Flames games?

[Joborule]

Originally Posted by nick.flood

Very quick and rough, but this solves a bunch of issues.

- In order to keep the complex close to the LRT and for platform efficiency, users can go to Sunalta or Kerby equally.
- Also keeps more residential space for West Village and with good access to the Sunalta LRT
- Relocate the skate park and shift EB Bow trail as far south as possible for this stretch and put the arena there, with the fieldhouse on the other side of the LRT line.
- Use Shaw Millenium as a game day plaza.
- Use a traffic circle to merge 14th street traffic with west bound 5th Ave and over to the south side, in line with the current east bound Bow trail.
- This opens up the entire river front for residential and pedestrian use.
- 14th Street south of the tracks will become a restaurant and bar strip as it currently has plenty of property ready to redevelop

I'm no transit expert either, but would it be possible to bring trains from the NW-S line west to the Kerby station and then head back towards 9th street and go north and some switch tracks somewhere between and get to the south side east bound track? Then people could get on both lines from that station.

That's an interesting concept. You could probably even implement the LRT station into the complex itself, which would be the best option. I do like that there's a plaza/park aspect of it, to have a gather place on gamedays.

The concept plan is very vague and basic intentionally I feel, and nothing definite was presented because now it's becoming a partnership between CSE and the city. So it leaves room for lots of tweaks and changes in later versions of the plan. Roadways, pathways, and land use layouts most likely being the biggest adjustments.

Having the concept settle on me for a few days. I feel these are the necessary requirements for this to be a project to go forward on:

- The river is the biggest asset in this area. That riverfront should be a high pedestrian area, meaning the area around it has to limit vehicular activity. The original West Village concept included a riverfront promenade, and this still needs to be the case. There should be mixed used residential/retail that lines up along the promenade to give this area life 365 days a year. It'll also make the western residential buildings of the area have a connection to the eastern portion.

The buildings along the promenade could have an intregration with the sports complex, which would make it similar to what the new Detroit Red Wings arena is going with. Mixed used on the envelope, and the event centre itself in the inside.

- The West Village plan also had a "Grand Staircase" concept. I think the pathway corridor could still be implemented for the sports complex. The +15 portion that connects train station into the complex should be an open pathway to connect Sunalta station to the river promenade. The connection between the stadium/fieldhouse and event centre could still be present beneath the +15, or below the ground floor if there's a street beneath instead.

- Bow Trail westbound cannot stay as is. It'll have to be twinned with the eastbound portion, bringing it closer to the CPR tracks, and/or buried underneath.

- The concept is missing a gathering place by the complex. There should be a hot spot for people to come together prior to gametime; giving it a bit more of a LA Live vibe. Perhaps by the northern entrance of the complex right by the river promenade.

- Pedestrian bridge that connects to 19 St NW. More so for the general bike and pedestrian traffic coming from/going to the NW of the area.

[woychukb]

Originally Posted by MalcolmTucker

A company, Pollstar, tracks this (found a more current list just now to link to, I think my numbers for events were 2013 numbers). The big difference is on the event side.

http://canadianmusician.com/blog/201...nues-globally/

I just added up the numbers in the link you provided plus the attendance for the Flames/Hitmen/Roughnecks vs. Oilers/Oil Kings/Rush in the last season and the Saddledome has a higher attendance for 2014/15:

Hitmen Regular Season   304,649
Hitmen Playoffs          63,793
Roughnecks Regular      104,785
Roughnecks Playoffs      25,570
Flames Regular          816,187
Flames Playoffs          96,445
Concert Tickets         210,727
Brier                   151,835
-------------------------------
Calgary Total         1,773,991

Oil Kings Regular       244,335
Oil Kings Playoffs       15,567
Rush Regular             59,207
Rush Playoffs            19,965
Oilers Regular          690,399
Concert Tickets         405,408
-------------------------------
Edmonton Total        1,434,881

Maybe Rexall has more events that aren't counted (such as the CFR which I couldn't find the current attendance for) but at best it's about even in the last year. 2013 may have been a different story as the Oil Kings had a good playoff run and the Flames didn't have any playoff games.

[MalcolmTucker]

Still, you need a pretty high facility fee (or portion of the profit from events) to actually pay for an arena to the point where some of those lower ticket price events wouldn't make sense in the arena anymore, leading you to a downwards cycle of higher fees and less events.

[Surrealplaces]

Thanks for digging those up. I thought I had read somewhere that Dome had more people in it per year, but couldn't find the stats. Outside if the rodeo, which is about 80K in total there really isn't much difference. Of course the Brier is a once in a while thing, so the two venues are generally not too far apart. The biggest consistent difference is the concerts, which of course would change as the new arena would be able to host all these concerts that have been missed. Our numbers for the concerts would be about the same, probably higher actually.

Originally Posted by woychukb

I just added up the numbers in the link you provided plus the attendance for the Flames/Hitmen/Roughnecks vs. Oilers/Oil Kings/Rush in the last season and the Saddledome has a higher attendance for 2014/15:

Hitmen Regular Season   304,649
Hitmen Playoffs          63,793
Roughnecks Regular      104,785
Roughnecks Playoffs      25,570
Flames Regular          816,187
Flames Playoffs          96,445
Concert Tickets         210,727
Brier                   151,835
-------------------------------
Calgary Total         1,773,991

Oil Kings Regular       244,335
Oil Kings Playoffs       15,567
Rush Regular             59,207
Rush Playoffs            19,965
Oilers Regular          690,399
Concert Tickets         405,408
-------------------------------
Edmonton Total        1,434,881

Maybe Rexall has more events that aren't counted (such as the CFR which I couldn't find the current attendance for) but at best it's about even in the last year. 2013 may have been a different story as the Oil Kings had a good playoff run and the Flames didn't have any playoff games.