GTA Transit Thread

[Dr Nevergold]

Despite all the problems, transit will be significantly better come 2020.

[Innsertnamehere]

The subway is an iffy thing. It isn't like the Sheppard subway where if you support that you are just plain wrong, the LRT vs subway is more of weighing essentially equal pros and cons. Really, It could be a subway or an LRT and I would be just as happy.

[333609543]

I would like to keep the RT stations in-tact but a subway would be nice. I think that either planning a Don Valley/Don Mills line and/or Downtown relief line before Scarborough.

[333609543]

Originally Posted by Ottawa superman

The older bus bay will be demolished for construction of the Eglinton LRT. Wonder what building will go in it's place after the lRT finishes construction?

It would be nice to re-use the older ones but 1. They're not wheelchair accessible, 2. The supports are too weak for overhead traffic, and 3. the LRT will replace this section. The newer Terminal is quite unique itself too, just there are hardly any bus bays like Eglinton's old ones. I know Warden's and Islington's bus bays are similar, but I'm very sure that the Islington bus bays will encounter the same fate as the Eglinton bus bays.

[Dr Nevergold]

Why is the subway iffy?

[Innsertnamehere]

ridership and cost. $2.8 billion for a line that can be just as affective as an LRT (if not more effective as it hits Centennial College) for $1.4.

[Dr Nevergold]

Over the long term subway for Scarborough makes more sense. It doesn't require a separate bidding process to update a separate Scarborough LRT vs an extension of the existing Bloor-Danforth subway line in the future. Whenever Toronto gets new signaling or new subway cars in 30 years or gets platform door protection, it is a singular bid process for the entire line instead of a separate investment for a LRT line. There is savings in spending more up front to do it right the first time.

I think Scarborough RT is an exemplar of what not to do. Toronto tried the Scarborough RT as an example project in the 80's, and you see where it is today. It was largely a mistake (financially speaking, not in its function) and if a subway extension would have only been built in the 1980's then we wouldn't even have to talk about billions of investment in a new line or extension today. The new subway cars they purchased already would have been running on the Scarborough section if it had already been built.

...building LRT seems cheap on the front end, but in 30 years it'd be another maintenance headache to revamp or replace. Just like Scarborough RT is today. Light rail car replacements are expensive for a separate line that could have been the same line, signaling upgrades for a different line is expensive vs just having the same Bloor-Danforth line, etc.

Its about time to build it right the first time instead of making these transit mistakes that seem cheap, but really are more costly in the long run.

Besides, the transit patterns of Scarborough are more suited to subway stops that are spaced further out. Subways are faster, with no transfer @ Kennedy. Most people in Scarborough live in suburban settings and use buses to transfer to subway stops. As it stands today, many Scarborough residents transfer from buses to Scarborough RT to Bloor-Danforth then to either Yonge or Spadina to finally get where they need to be.

A light rail solution is the wrong solution for Scarborough, there's little proof otherwise.

...now Sheppard is another story entirely. I actually advocate for the opposite. Since Sheppard truly is a stubway and not a full transport system, I would very much recommend converting the Sheppard subway tunnels to light rail and having an above ground line that is a singular technology. I don't know how it'd be retrofitted or how much the cost would be, but converting all of Sheppard to a LRT network with a tunnel portion is a better option than this transfer-transfer-transfer-transfer situation that they're getting into.

The key here is to keep it one technology, not to have competing technologies on the same line. I'm largely technology agnostic, but it needs to be the right technology for its environment. This is something that politics gets in the way of, and I am so sick of the Ford-everyone else mentality that transit has gotten into. Ford has essentially made transit talk rather toxic because its all political now (which is just another reason to dislike him IMO), and it isn't about whats simply best for Toronto.

Once Sheppard LRT, Scarborough Subway, and Eglinton LRT gets constructed, the city should prioritize a DRL subway line as its next large transit investment project. This isn't even mentioning GO and other regional transit needs, but for the TTC a DRL is absolutely the next step, and subway technology is what would be best. All political interests should stop bickering and get behind the DRL subway. Eglinton, Scarborough, and Sheppard FINALLY seem to be settled, and now that those three lines are a go DRL is next in queue.

[Dr Nevergold]

^As an addendum, I'd strongly advocate for a DRL that doesn't just loop around from Union Station on both sides to Bloor-Danforth, I'd strongly promote extending it as far north as a budget will allow, whatever can be approved.

In regards to Eglinton, I'm glad its LRT. I think that for its specific corridor it was the proper technology choice. It allowed for it to be lengthened to a longer distance east-west than subway would have allowed in the budget. A significant portion of it is underground so it just seems to fit well for the style of area its serving.

Again, its important for people to be more technology agnostic. I think transit is a great thing when done right, and there are places where LRT makes sense, and there are places where Subway makes more sense.

Scarborough's only real decent choice is a subway extension. It seems a bit odd that Scarborough wouldn't be suited for it, yet Vaughan City Centre somehow is. It doesn't make sense to go from Downsview to VCC with a separate LRT line with the added transfer headache.

Torontonians need to just come together and realize better isn't always cheaper, and certain corridors need certain types of transit. It shouldn't be all LRT or all subway. Both make sense and both are the right mode, depending on the area and project we're speaking about.

I repeat: I wouldn't mind having Sheppard converted to LRT in the current subway portion. It would be a tremendous option to make it one technology.

Lastly, I think this new $600 million investment from Ottawa proves that funding is there when the political will is there. Don't be afraid to do transit right just because it costs slightly more on the front end. Funding is there when political will is there, its just a matter of getting the politicians in line and getting the will to do it.

Lately there's been a lot of strange bedfellows in transit funding. Harper's government was fed some red meat in 2011, that red meat was greater Toronto outside the old city. Now that he has blood to feast on, he will throw a bone to Toronto to try and latch onto power. I'm not stupid, I know exactly why they funded it. Harper wants to maintain the recent uptick in conservative support in Toronto's suburban areas both on the city and federal level.

...take what you can get. Never turn down a moment like this. It only comes around once in a rare moment. I can't stand Conservative politics, but I'm pragmatic enough to take whatever you can get. End the bickering, end the debate, and get these three projects done. Sheppard/Scarborough/Eglinton are a done deal if we can just move on. It took years and year of delays and debate, and that is now largely over.

[WhipperSnapper]

After some thought, a scarborough subways only makes sense when a future consideration includes running it to markham centre. The most likely route name would be kennedy. I don't see a need to extend it further east to Scarborough Centre.

[Innsertnamehere]

Originally Posted by Brandon716

Over the long term subway for Scarborough makes more sense. It doesn't require a separate bidding process to update a separate Scarborough LRT vs an extension of the existing Bloor-Danforth subway line in the future. Whenever Toronto gets new signaling or new subway cars in 30 years or gets platform door protection, it is a singular bid process for the entire line instead of a separate investment for a LRT line. There is savings in spending more up front to do it right the first time.

I think Scarborough RT is an exemplar of what not to do. Toronto tried the Scarborough RT as an example project in the 80's, and you see where it is today. It was largely a mistake (financially speaking, not in its function) and if a subway extension would have only been built in the 1980's then we wouldn't even have to talk about billions of investment in a new line or extension today. The new subway cars they purchased already would have been running on the Scarborough section if it had already been built.

...building LRT seems cheap on the front end, but in 30 years it'd be another maintenance headache to revamp or replace. Just like Scarborough RT is today. Light rail car replacements are expensive for a separate line that could have been the same line, signaling upgrades for a different line is expensive vs just having the same Bloor-Danforth line, etc.

Its about time to build it right the first time instead of making these transit mistakes that seem cheap, but really are more costly in the long run.

Besides, the transit patterns of Scarborough are more suited to subway stops that are spaced further out. Subways are faster, with no transfer @ Kennedy. Most people in Scarborough live in suburban settings and use buses to transfer to subway stops. As it stands today, many Scarborough residents transfer from buses to Scarborough RT to Bloor-Danforth then to either Yonge or Spadina to finally get where they need to be.

A light rail solution is the wrong solution for Scarborough, there's little proof otherwise.

...now Sheppard is another story entirely. I actually advocate for the opposite. Since Sheppard truly is a stubway and not a full transport system, I would very much recommend converting the Sheppard subway tunnels to light rail and having an above ground line that is a singular technology. I don't know how it'd be retrofitted or how much the cost would be, but converting all of Sheppard to a LRT network with a tunnel portion is a better option than this transfer-transfer-transfer-transfer situation that they're getting into.

The key here is to keep it one technology, not to have competing technologies on the same line. I'm largely technology agnostic, but it needs to be the right technology for its environment. This is something that politics gets in the way of, and I am so sick of the Ford-everyone else mentality that transit has gotten into. Ford has essentially made transit talk rather toxic because its all political now (which is just another reason to dislike him IMO), and it isn't about whats simply best for Toronto.

Once Sheppard LRT, Scarborough Subway, and Eglinton LRT gets constructed, the city should prioritize a DRL subway line as its next large transit investment project. This isn't even mentioning GO and other regional transit needs, but for the TTC a DRL is absolutely the next step, and subway technology is what would be best. All political interests should stop bickering and get behind the DRL subway. Eglinton, Scarborough, and Sheppard FINALLY seem to be settled, and now that those three lines are a go DRL is next in queue.

I seem to remember going over this before, I'm not sure whether or not it was with you, but when all said and done toronto was supposed to have 53km of LRT with 182 LRT train cars. That is hardly an "isolated system that will be difficult to replace in 30 years" Replacement and matience can be done along with all other LRT lines, instead of along with the subway system. If anything, making this a subway makes maintenance more difficult as you can no longer take trains from the Sheppard LRT to the Eglinton LRT without putting them on a truck bed. Toronto will now have 3 individual LRT networks instead of 2.

RT was a mistake, yes. it is MKI ICTS which is of course incompatiable with MKII or MKIII ICTS, which is what vancouver uses.

A major detractor of the subway is that it doesn't hit Centennial college. You are correct on there not really being a need for so many stations (you could probably eliminate 2 stops on the LRT and be fine) the subway should really have a 4th stop at McCowen & Eglinton.

Sheppard barely has the ridership to justify LRT. if you aren't going to be building LRT, you should be building BRT. maybe the saved money can go to the white elephant scarborough subway.

Over doubling the cost is not "slightly more" especially when you are talking $1.6 billion dollars more.

The feds funding is absolutely a political move, just like the entire extension.

The Spadina extension past York U is completely political as well. (even more so than the Scarborough subway)


I also don't think the Scarborough subway is a stupid, stupid idea, but I feel the LRT would have been better. We have most of the money now however, (Still short $840 million) so I'm fine with it moving ahead. It will force Fords hand on taxes as well, as raising that kind of money will require some fairly large tax increases.

[Innsertnamehere]

Originally Posted by WhipperSnapper

After some thought, a scarborough subways only makes sense when a future consideration includes running it to markham centre. The most likely route name would be kennedy. I don't see a need to extend it further east to Scarborough Centre.

running it to markham centre is like wanting the spadina line extended to wonderland, except worse. Markham centre will be much much better served by AD2W GO. There is no way a 9-10km extension through the middle of suburbs to a place that currently only receives 3,600 daily boardings (Unionville GO) with absolutely no viable stops in between would make sense. The subway will stop at Sheppard for the next long while, just like how the Spadina line will stop at highway 7 for the next long while. You also have to remember that on GO it takes 38 minutes to get downtown, the subway will probably be closer to an hour.

[Dr Nevergold]

^^We have most certainly had that discussion before.

Scarborough LRT, even if other LRT lines existed, would still require a separate investment, separate bidding process, separate signaling updates, separate everything from the existing Danforth subway line that is above and beyond just integrating maintenance to 4 or so new subway stations. If the Danforth gets updated security doors that protect people from the tracks, it is an integrated process and applies to the entire Scarborough portion in a potential future scenario for example. In 30 years if the subway system needs to purchase new subway vehicles, then there won't be a need for a second bidding process, the same trains that operate on Danforth will serve Scarborough subway. There's no way a separate LRT comes anywhere near the cost savings in the long term, even if its cheaper on the front end.

Aside from the added red tape with a separate LRT line you still have the transfer/overlapping technology problem (which is a bigger issue to me than it is to you, and we don't agree on that point). I respectfully disagree with you, because I don't think LRT is some evil technology, just not suited for Scarborough's needs. You are completely free to speak differently, but that's how I see it.

All the evidence I've seen points to Scarborough LRT becoming another Scarborough RT. Instead of spending the money and getting it done the right way the first time with a subway extension, the city and residents will be asking why didn't we just build out a subway and do it right when we had the chance.

Luckily, it appears that the Scarborough subway is finally being built and has won the debate. Funding is here, the debate is largely over (except for Toronto's portion of the funding, which shouldn't be a problem).

Future discussion on the mode of transit is increasingly irrelevant, now is the time to get these projects done. All Torontonians owe it to themselves to commit to at the very least seeing that Eglinton LRT and Scarborough subway are completed and implemented.

I think Sheppard LRT has a bit more debate left in it for various reasons, but I would agree if its funded go ahead and get it done. There's no need to stall any of these projects any further, their time has come to get done. Toronto needs action toward construction, not more debate on the mode of transit to be built. Maybe that is something everyone can mostly agree on.

[333609543]

I don't think converting all of the Sheppard line into an LRT line, because of all the development that is going on, Emerald City will be complete by 2015, Heron's Hill Towers are pretty much complete, and there's lots of development between Leslie and Bessarion. And due to the development around the North York City Centre, I'd recommend keeping the Sheppard subway, and extending it to Downsview. The bus ride from Sheppard-Yonge to Downsview is a pain in the ***. And with a reasonable DRL which might happen, could connect to Don Mills station in the future, plus relieve the traffic on the Don Valley. I'm sending a 3 phase DRL/Don Mills line to the city council, I'll upload it within 3 days, it will be handwritten, hopefully it won't be too messy.

[Doady]

Originally Posted by Brandon716

^As an addendum, I'd strongly advocate for a DRL that doesn't just loop around from Union Station on both sides to Bloor-Danforth, I'd strongly promote extending it as far north as a budget will allow, whatever can be approved.

In regards to Eglinton, I'm glad its LRT. I think that for its specific corridor it was the proper technology choice. It allowed for it to be lengthened to a longer distance east-west than subway would have allowed in the budget. A significant portion of it is underground so it just seems to fit well for the style of area its serving.

Again, its important for people to be more technology agnostic. I think transit is a great thing when done right, and there are places where LRT makes sense, and there are places where Subway makes more sense.

Scarborough's only real decent choice is a subway extension. It seems a bit odd that Scarborough wouldn't be suited for it, yet Vaughan City Centre somehow is. It doesn't make sense to go from Downsview to VCC with a separate LRT line with the added transfer headache.

Torontonians need to just come together and realize better isn't always cheaper, and certain corridors need certain types of transit. It shouldn't be all LRT or all subway. Both make sense and both are the right mode, depending on the area and project we're speaking about.

I repeat: I wouldn't mind having Sheppard converted to LRT in the current subway portion. It would be a tremendous option to make it one technology.

Lastly, I think this new $600 million investment from Ottawa proves that funding is there when the political will is there. Don't be afraid to do transit right just because it costs slightly more on the front end. Funding is there when political will is there, its just a matter of getting the politicians in line and getting the will to do it.

Lately there's been a lot of strange bedfellows in transit funding. Harper's government was fed some red meat in 2011, that red meat was greater Toronto outside the old city. Now that he has blood to feast on, he will throw a bone to Toronto to try and latch onto power. I'm not stupid, I know exactly why they funded it. Harper wants to maintain the recent uptick in conservative support in Toronto's suburban areas both on the city and federal level.

...take what you can get. Never turn down a moment like this. It only comes around once in a rare moment. I can't stand Conservative politics, but I'm pragmatic enough to take whatever you can get. End the bickering, end the debate, and get these three projects done. Sheppard/Scarborough/Eglinton are a done deal if we can just move on. It took years and year of delays and debate, and that is now largely over.

Eglinton as LRT makes little sense either since there is a large underground portion, and the Richview corridor provides an opportunity for a fully grade separated line. Spending more $4 billion on a single LRT line is simply dumb, especially considering it will have no connection to either the Mississauga Transitway (a grade-separated BRT corridor) or the airport.

Yes, Sheppard should be one technology, which is why it should be a subway extension, not a feeder LRT with no connection to Yonge. Though now that it would connect to Bloor-Danforth Subway, it is no longer as isolated. A westward extension the subway to Downsview would also help make the LRT (and the subway itself) less useless.

The TTC subway system is the third busiest rapid transit system in North America, the obsession with LRT is just folly. The GTA has over 5 million people now but if Toronto fancies itself more like Calgary, Portland, St. Louis, Phoenix, etc. than Montreal, DC, London, NYC, Berlin, etc. then more power to it.

[Innsertnamehere]

.... sure lets build a metro line that will sit empty. It is possible to run LRTs on the less used portions of the system.. it doesn't have to be subway or nothing. Most cities are building LRT anyways.. (such as Paris)

[Dr Nevergold]

Originally Posted by Innsertnamehere

.... sure lets build a metro line that will sit empty. It is possible to run LRTs on the less used portions of the system.. it doesn't have to be subway or nothing. Most cities are building LRT anyways.. (such as Paris)

This is where I disagree. Toronto is a city where people actually want to use transit and do use transit. Subways won't sit idle, but they need to be appropriate. For example, Sheppard shouldn't have been a subway in the 1990's, they should have been building a DRL and started planning construction for it 20 years ago.

Here is where I differ with the Ford people: rather than keep on this subway train (pun not intended), why not end the silly bickering to convert Sheppard to a subway and connect it into the new Scarborough subway and now start focusing on a DRL?

These three projects are a done deal for the most part, so why not start promoting and pushing for subway DRL? That would benefit all Torontonians, regardless of political affiliation. Ford is just so toxic, and the far left has to get off this LRT-only trend.

I do agree with doady to the extent that Toronto has to start thinking in terms of what it is: a global city, not compete with Portland, Denver, or Phoenix for transit options. Toronto is an urban city of transit users that is emerging onto the global scene very rapidly, it needs to have the right attitude.

Where I disagree with those only-subway voices is when you look at places like Berlin. Berlin has a tremendous light rail network along side its heavy rail subways and commuter system. An "all of the above" approach is best. Not one or the other.

[Innsertnamehere]

Originally Posted by Brandon716

Berlin has a tremendous light rail network along side its heavy rail subways and commuter system. An "all of the above" approach is best. Not one or the other.

exactly, and you have to decide where a subway is valid and where one isn't. The Yonge extension is valid for a subway, Spadina extension is valid south of York U, and the DRL is a valid location as well. Eglinton on the other hand isn't. 6,000 PPHD is not worth a subway, when LRT can candle 20,000 PPHD. Scarborough could go either way, with around 10,000 PPHD. Sheppard is going to have 3,600 PPHD, which is questionably low for even an LRT, yet alone a subway. We must decide what goes where, and other than maybe the RT replacement, Transit city had it right.

[Dr Nevergold]

^Eglinton is moot at this point, but for the sake of discussion I'll tell you this. Eglinton is a crosstown line, and it is along a major corridor with a major hub around Yonge-Eglinton and other areas. It has potential to urbanize more, and many more condos to be constructed along its route, as well as business space.

I could easily see Eglinton LRT become overpowered with too many riders in the future because of it. Toronto isn't Denver or Portland, its more like Berlin or Paris in transit mentality and willingness to use transit services.

But Eglinton LRT is a done deal, its fine the way its setup now. Not perfect, but it should be built as planned.

I don't think Transit City had much right, because it relied on conservative transport numbers over a long term period relative to the type of development the future can hold. Its based on theoretical numbers that don't vary much from current built environment statistics. Transit City was deeply, deeply flawed in certain aspects, particularly its LRT-only approach, shutting out any other mode for no reason other than LRT seems cool and hip at this current moment and it seemed cheaper on paper (which it is, but only marginally cheaper for transit that still crosses street light stops). Transit City was trying to be trendy, and do too much with too little, it wasn't practical overall.

But again, Transit City is a moot point and I don't care to debate that beyond what was just said. Its a dead project. Eglinton and Sheppard are the only two projects out of that which survived and Eglinton was significantly altered. Sheppard LRT is still deeply flawed and I'm not sure spending that much money on a line that you have to transfer onto the Sheppard subway is worth the investment when it still has to go through traffic lights. It doesn't seem to get enough bang for the buck. But I'm pragmatic enough to say just let it be built if the funding is already approved.

DRL however is the important debate, its the new project all people should focus on. At this time, I think it would only be appropriate to start talking about a full subway DRL line that goes all the way to Eglinton LRT at the least, more if funding is possible. There's no way a DRL should end at Bloor-Danforth now that Eglinton LRT is a go.

[Innsertnamehere]

Finch LRT is still a go.

The 5,900 PPHD numbers are coming from 2031 forecasts, and I doubt the ridership would be tripling because of some condos. You have to remember that the subway lines are standing room only by the time they leave their first station, huge portions of ridership come from not directly on the line. The Toronto network is built off of bus transfers. The way eglinton is set up, it would take huge growth throughout the GTA to start to overload it. Large portions of the B-D lines ridership comes from Mississauga, as will the Eglinton LRT's. (though a smaller amount) There is only so much densification that can go on, and the available amount would not be tripling ridership. Eglinton will be a large bus-interceptor, but even with that it is not going to run into problems. Sheppard has had continuous condo construction around it, and still has some of the quietest stations on the entire network. only so much densification can be done, and even though Torontonians are willing to ride transit, there simply aren't enough of them. Most of the RT's ridership also comes from buses, not STC condos. Intensification helps, but it doesn't form the backbone of a network.


DRL funding could come in the spring if the provincial liberals can manage to pass their transit tax.

[333609543]

I agree, as there were many developments closer to Leslie/Bessarion station, and they haven't been very busy what so ever. I don't necessarily think that Eglinton should have an LRT, as closer to Eglinton and Yonge, the traffic is very much like uptown's traffic; slow. It might be best for an Eglinton line with a same design as the Sheppard line: stations that only capacitate 4 subway cars, rather than 6 like on the Yonge and Bloor lines. But I do agree that most of the subway passengers come from bus transfers, as example of the Don Mills bus, Dufferin, and York Mills buses. I'd rather have a Queen/DR Line rather than an Eglinton line, as the Queen streetcar is already crowded as it is, and with the extra development downtown, it may be necessary to double the streetcar frequency so the route isn't overcrowded. As much as people would hate to pay extra taxes, we must because if we don't, Toronto will be overcrowded due to poor funding on transit projects. The subway focus should be downtown, not extending northward/eastward/westward.