Stadiums & Arenas of Canada, Part 3

[osmo]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

No no no

Ottawa's arena will be 100% funded by the private sector. They (the City and the Sens) have said this time and time again. The Sens owner even confirmed it again few weeks ago.

The National Capital Commission held a competition to see who is worthy to buy the contaminated former industrial land downtown named LeBreton Flats and redevelop. The deal is the Sens consortium (RVL) will buy the land for market value (probably hundreds of millions) and the NCC will deduct the price of cleanup (tens of millions) since they were the ones who expropriated then sat on it for 50+ years. The alternative would have been the City contributing through existent programs and tax breaks to help cleanup the contaminated site.

RVL will not be asking any public money whatsoever. Not even to cover the O-Train Line. The only thing the City will be paying for are roads, sewer lines and parks, as they would for any other development downtown or in the suburbs.

Lots of value for Sens to build the arena on their own. They are getting land discount and clean up, improvements to transit and other city aspects, profit from selling off CTC land. Now, once they build an arena they will control it and get all the revenues from it.

Edmonton and QC are not trends. Both were two silly markets that through money in a situation they did not need to. QC didn't need to build that arena, and Edmonton didn't have to bend over to Katz.

The Sens and Eugene will have a monopoly on arena business in Ottawa and will get every penny of events that are affiliated with NCC or the Sens.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by Oilkountry

Sorry, I'm not buying it. I don't feel like Any Canadian teams will be privately funding an Arena after seeing Edmonton and QC build arenas with significant public dollars. Let alone Eugene Menelik of all Canadian Team owners

You're not buying it, that's fine, but the way you said it, it was a fact and a done deal;

This may be why Ottawa Gets an Arena built on public dime

Up until now, the fact is NO ONE, not the Feds, City or Sens owner have suggested public money will go into this arena. In fact, ALL OF THEM have been unequivocal in saying not a dime of public money will be invested in this project.

I too find it somewhat strange that the one Canadian franchise with financial difficulty is the only one that isn't asking for public money. That said, it might have something to do with Melnyk being screwed over multiple times by the City in the past (wasn't allowed to build a pro-soccer stadium, was shut-out of a bid for a casino in Ottawa). He knows he won't be getting anything so why bother. He knows that no matter what, Ottawa has huge potential as an NHL city if the arena is downtown, on the subway line.

Québec is a special case because the City and its citizens want an NHL franchise at all cost. Calgary is a different story because they (the City) own the current arena and land, not to mention they have been open to negotiation.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by osmo

Lots of value for Sens to build the arena on their own. They are getting land discount and clean up, improvements to transit and other city aspects, profit from selling off CTC land. Now, once they build an arena they will control it and get all the revenues from it.

Edmonton and QC are not trends. Both were two silly markets that through money in a situation they did not need to. QC didn't need to build that arena, and Edmonton didn't have to bend over to Katz.

The Sens and Eugene will have a monopoly on arena business in Ottawa and will get every penny of events that are affiliated with NCC or the Sens.

Good points.

However, they don't have a full monopoly though; the City owns the 10,000 seat Civic Centre (aka TD Place Arena at Lansdowne Park) where a few fairly big acts that could go either way (mid-size to large venue) have played. A downtown NHL arena however will probably take a lot of business from transit poor Lansdowne.

[Oilkountry]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

You're not buying it, that's fine, but the way you said it, it was a fact and a done deal;

This may be why Ottawa Gets an Arena built on public dime

Up until now, the fact is NO ONE, not the Feds, City or Sens owner have suggested public money will go into this arena. In fact, ALL OF THEM have been unequivocal in saying not a dime of public money will be invested in this project.

I too find it somewhat strange that the one Canadian franchise with financial difficulty is the only one that isn't asking for public money. That said, it might have something to do with Melnyk being screwed over multiple times by the City in the past (wasn't allowed to build a pro-soccer stadium, was shut-out of a bid for a casino in Ottawa). He knows he won't be getting anything so why bother. He knows that no matter what, Ottawa has huge potential as an NHL city if the arena is downtown, on the subway line.

Québec is a special case because the City and its citizens want an NHL franchise at all cost. Calgary is a different story because they (the City) own the current arena and land, not to mention they have been open to negotiation.

I'm being quite consistent here. I believe if Ottawa gets a rink Built downtown it will be on a Public/Private Partnership. An I think they have a better chance of that Than Calgary. I don't think The sens have any Interest in fully funding an Arena, And that development (And the taxes it brings...see Ice district) gives the some Ammo to go for a public partnership. However you make great Points about the cities history with Menlyk (Which i'll Admit i wasn't aware of) You may be onto something. The city might see him coming from a Mile away. It's Interesting

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by Oilkountry

I'm being quite consistent here. I believe if Ottawa gets a rink Built downtown it will be on a Public/Private Partnership.

There has been nothing throughout the entire bidding process to indicate any public money at any level will be contributed to the project. Ottawa is the kind of town where every little bit of public money in projects is scrutinized until it's not longer recognizable - a professional hockey team won't be getting any public money for a shiny new building it doesn't necessarily need, today or tomorrow.

Melnyk may not even be a part of Sens ownership by the time shovels are in the ground, at least at the pace things are going with the franchise on and off the ice.

[osmo]

^^^ It would be a good time for him to cash out.

[someone123]

Originally posted by q12 in the Halifax local:

Touchdown: CFL commissioner announces plans for Halifax franchise

Randy Ambrosie told overjoyed Halifax crowd a concrete plan is expected within a few months.

By: Lauren Hicks For Metro Halifax Published on Fri Feb 23 2018

Randy Ambrosie finished his cross-country CFL road trip in Halifax on Friday where he announced they’re planning a football franchise for the city.

No site location has yet been chosen, and Ambrosie said they’ll have a more concrete plan within the next few months.

He also said there is no timeline or pressure for when the team will be formed, and it’ll be "a couple of years" before a stadium is built.

"We will be thorough and thoughtful. You measure twice and cut once," he told a crowd gathered for the announcement in Halifax on Friday.

"It is about doing it right and making a franchise that will benefit this region for decades to come."

Partners of Maritime Football Limited (MFL) began thinking about the possibility of a local franchise about a year ago.

Founding partners of the MFL, Anthony LeBlanc and Bruce Bowser, joined Ambrosie on stage while making the announcement.

“The project is all about development around the game and the team. We need to keep the momentum going and get the ball down the field,” said LeBlanc.

Although no details about a site for the stadium were provided, Bowser hinted that it would likely not be in or around downtown Halifax.

Bowser also told the crowd that the stadium will likely cost between $150 to $250 million – seating approximately 24,000 fans.

“One thing I heard from the mayor and premier is that this project has to be private sector funded,” said LeBlanc.

“They are not saying they will not be involved, just that we have to lead the project.”

CFL stadiums across the country have relied on public funding and government assistance in their construction.

LeBlanc reassured the audience they “are not looking to take money out of tax payers pockets” amidst a few questions from audience members regarding the finances of the project.

The commissioner said that along with the exciting possibility of an Atlantic franchise, the organization is working hard to ensure the league is inclusive to all and that stadium seats are filled.

“This is more than a team. This is about more events and concerts coming to the area and hopefully helping the local economy,” said LeBlanc.

Bowser and LeBlanc also spoke to the importance of this being a regional team they hope will draw crowds from all over the Maritimes.

“If IKEA can pull as many people from all over the region like it does, we think a football team will too,” said LeBlanc.

For this reason, the team will not be called “The Halifax____” but rather “The Atlantic____,” explained Bowser.

The Canadian Football League Commissioner’s ten-stop tour concluded with an appearance in front of an excited crowd at the Westin Nova Scotian Hotel in downtown Halifax.

Halifax was the only non-franchise city on Ambrosie’s national tour.

“We have the opportunity to be the most inclusive sports league in the country. Football belongs to all of Canada," he said.

“The stars have aligned and we do not have a completed CFL until we have a team in Atlantic Canada. I believe in my heart this franchise will happen.”

Read the story here: http://www.metronews.ca/news/halifax...form=hootsuite

[JHikka]

I'm still skeptical of 24K for the Halifax area. That's double the size of the next closest venue in the Atlantic region with little evidence (at least IMO) that they can fill it reliably. 20K with expansion potential would be a wiser goal, IMO.

Their regional aspirations for the team, and mentioning IKEA, say to me that the stadium is going out in Dartmouth Crossing. Disappointing. I fear they're trying to emulate Lansdowne without realizing what makes Lansdowne successful to begin with.

[Franco401]

Originally Posted by JHikka

I'm still skeptical of 24K for the Halifax area. That's double the size of the next closest venue in the Atlantic region with little evidence (at least IMO) that they can fill it reliably. 20K with expansion potential would be a wiser goal, IMO.

That "next closest venue" doesn't have any major full-time tenant. It isn't even the primary concert site in the city. Apples to grapes, IMO.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by JHikka

I'm still skeptical of 24K for the Halifax area. That's double the size of the next closest venue in the Atlantic region with little evidence (at least IMO) that they can fill it reliably. 20K with expansion potential would be a wiser goal, IMO.

Is there really much difference between 24,000 seats and 20,000 with room for expansion? I guess your concern is empty seats and not the cost (the cost could probably vary a lot more from other factors than from a 20% difference in seating capacity).

Does it mean anything that the next-largest stadium in the region, a stadium in a much smaller city without anything like a CFL team, will be half the size? There is clearly risk inherent to this project and it is kind of a new thing, but I am not sure how that can be avoided. I don't think it makes sense to try to mitigate risk by arbitrarily making the project more similar to other things that already exist in the region.

Scotiabank Centre in Halifax holds around 10,500-13,000 and fills up regularly. It was built 40 years ago and I don't think it's been expanded much. I would not be surprised if its original construction cost were similar to what is being proposed for the stadium, when adjusting for inflation and perhaps the size and wealth of the city. In other words the stadium is probably a more modest project in 2018 than the Metro Centre was in the 70's.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by someone123

Is there really much difference between 24,000 seats and 20,000 with room for expansion? I guess your concern is empty seats and not the cost (the cost could probably vary a lot more from other factors than from a 20% difference in seating capacity).

Yes. My concern is the optics of empty seats shortly after opening, whether that's a month or a year. They must either be wishful or very confident they can fill it reliably.

Originally Posted by someone123

Does it mean anything that the next-largest stadium in the region, a stadium in a much smaller city without anything like a CFL team, will be half the size? There is clearly risk inherent to this project and it is kind of a new thing, but I am not sure how that can be avoided. I don't think it makes sense to try to mitigate risk by arbitrarily making the project more similar to other things that already exist in the region.

I was referencing the Metro Centre. See below.

Originally Posted by someone123

Scotiabank Centre in Halifax holds around 10,500-13,000 and fills up regularly. It was built 40 years ago and I don't think it's been expanded much. I would not be surprised if its original construction cost were similar to what is being proposed for the stadium, when adjusting for inflation and perhaps the size and wealth of the city. In other words the stadium is probably a more modest project in 2018 than the Metro Centre was in the 70's.

What was the cost breakdown of the building? Prov/Fed/Private. I'd be interested.

The main difference for that building is that it is in the very heart of Peninsular Halifax. It's central and connected by transit. The new stadium likely will not be (and will cost government anyway via new infrastructure construction and servicing costs). Again, my misgivings with the project are less the scale and more the eventual location. The location is going to have an affect on the scale, or at least should. I'm beating a dead horse but Ottawa is a perfect example of this.

If the Metro Centre was in Spryfield or Bedford do we think it would reliably get 7-10k for Mooseheads games?

[Dalreg]

Originally Posted by JHikka

Yes. My concern is the optics of empty seats shortly after opening, whether that's a month or a year. They must either be wishful or very confident they can fill it reliably.

By this logic no stadium or arena in Canada should be more than 20,000 seats if you want to avoid empty seats.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by JHikka

What was the cost breakdown of the building? Prov/Fed/Private. I'd be interested.

I read a breakdown once but I can't remember the details. This article says it was built at a cost of $12M, which is surprisingly little. This works out to around $50M in today's dollars or about $80M per capita. This underestimates the financial burden the project represented at the time because the city's economy was smaller per capita in the 1970's (after correcting for inflation).

The province was contemplating a $200-300M arena a few years back but I don't think there are any immediate plans, and it could become a lower priority if a stadium is built.

I agree that a Dartmouth Crossing type location is a bad idea, and a waste if the facility is going to cost $200M. The land cost of a better location would be a small portion of the total. The city should be looking at building it on the Wanderers Grounds (and realigning some roads/rebuilding a couple minor neighbouring things) or Gorsebrook. The Halifax Common is a huge area meant to be dedicated to public facilities. A stadium fits the bill perfectly.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by Dalreg

By this logic no stadium or arena in Canada should be more than 20,000 seats if you want to avoid empty seats.

In terms of total attendance capacity...NFL stadiums are getting smaller, arenas are getting smaller, MLS stadiums in the US are being capped between 20K-25K. Ticket scarcity and the appeal of a better atmosphere is more appealing than raw numbers in stadiums. Combine it with an increased viewing experience at home and maybe some stadiums should be capped at 20K in Canada. I can almost guarantee we won't see another 20K arena in Canada for quite some time - it makes no sense from a revenue-capture POV.

Originally Posted by someone123

The province was contemplating a $200-300M arena a few years back but I don't think there are any immediate plans, and it could become a lower priority if a stadium is built.

At some point the Metro Centre will have to be replaced and we'll be having some similar discussions over its future (location, size, etc.). At least we have an idea of how well an arena can do in an urban setting in the area. Whether that's in ten years or thirty is I guess up for deliberation.

Originally Posted by someone123

I agree that a Dartmouth Crossing type location is a bad idea, and a waste if the facility is going to cost $200M. The land cost of a better location would be a small portion of the total. The city should be looking at building it on the Wanderers Grounds (and realigning some roads/rebuilding a couple minor neighbouring things) or Gorsebrook. The Halifax Common is a huge area meant to be dedicated to public facilities. A stadium fits the bill perfectly.

Indeed. I've mentioned it before, but a CPL team/whatever doing well at Wanderer Grounds makes the public appetite for supporting a stadium more tenable. If a stadium can be proven to be a net-benefit for the community it'll be more likely to be supported from the public angle. You can sell the public facility angle if you have something to base it off of. Going from no stadium to a 24K stadium is a big leap of the imagination for many, and many need to be lead to the idea that it's worth investing in under the right circumstances.

Public funding behind a new Metro Centre is easier to sell because people know what the deal is - it's an arena for a junior team, it hosts concerts, events, and it's centrally located. More difficult to sell a big stadium using public funds if the region has no experience using one. That's the main hurdle.

[king10]

24k is fine. Its the new standard in the east. Anything above 20k attrndance will look relatively full.

[Dalreg]

Originally Posted by JHikka

In terms of total attendance capacity...NFL stadiums are getting smaller, arenas are getting smaller, MLS stadiums in the US are being capped between 20K-25K. Ticket scarcity and the appeal of a better atmosphere is more appealing than raw numbers in stadiums. Combine it with an increased viewing experience at home and maybe some stadiums should be capped at 20K in Canada. I can almost guarantee we won't see another 20K arena in Canada for quite some time - it makes no sense from a revenue-capture POV.


At some point the Metro Centre will have to be replaced and we'll be having some similar discussions over its future (location, size, etc.). At least we have an idea of how well an arena can do in an urban setting in the area. Whether that's in ten years or thirty is I guess up for deliberation.



Indeed. I've mentioned it before, but a CPL team/whatever doing well at Wanderer Grounds makes the public appetite for supporting a stadium more tenable. If a stadium can be proven to be a net-benefit for the community it'll be more likely to be supported from the public angle. You can sell the public facility angle if you have something to base it off of. Going from no stadium to a 24K stadium is a big leap of the imagination for many, and many need to be lead to the idea that it's worth investing in under the right circumstances.

Public funding behind a new Metro Centre is easier to sell because people know what the deal is - it's an arena for a junior team, it hosts concerts, events, and it's centrally located. More difficult to sell a big stadium using public funds if the region has no experience using one. That's the main hurdle.

You seem confused. 20,000 seat arena vs stadium. There is a big difference in the two types of facilities.

Yes 20,000 seat arena are too big. 20,000 seat stadiums are too small.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by Dalreg

You seem confused. 20,000 seat arena vs stadium. There is a big difference in the two types of facilities.

Yes 20,000 seat arena are too big. 20,000 seat stadiums are too small.

In Canada? Not really. CFL teams in Canada's three biggest markets all averaged fewer than 20K in 2017. MLS teams in Vancouver and Montreal average around 20K. There are some markets that can handle larger stadiums (Baseball/Soccer in Toronto, Football in Calgary/Edmonton/Saskatchewan/Winnipeg) but aside from that 20K seems like a pretty average figure.

You could make the case that 20K at a higher revenue-per-attendee is more valuable than 30K at a lower revenue-per-attendee depending on the facility and its amenities. Having 20K consistently sell out is better for atmosphere and view on TV than 30K that might occasionally be filled once or twice a season.

Although at a higher figure, IGF is a good example of this. Its official listed capacity is 33,234, which they sell out roughly once through the course of a regular season. Outside of sellouts, Winnipeg typically get 2-3 30K+ games through the course of a regular season, with 25K being easily attainable. Do you think it would be wiser to have a 25K-27K stadium at a higher price point per ticket if it was more difficult to attain tickets?

[Oilkountry]

Originally Posted by JHikka

In Canada? Not really. CFL teams in Canada's three biggest markets all averaged fewer than 20K in 2017. MLS teams in Vancouver and Montreal average around 20K. There are some markets that can handle larger stadiums (Baseball/Soccer in Toronto, Football in Calgary/Edmonton/Saskatchewan/Winnipeg) but aside from that 20K seems like a pretty average figure.

You could make the case that 20K at a higher revenue-per-attendee is more valuable than 30K at a lower revenue-per-attendee depending on the facility and its amenities. Having 20K consistently sell out is better for atmosphere and view on TV than 30K that might occasionally be filled once or twice a season.

Although at a higher figure, IGF is a good example of this. Its official listed capacity is 33,234, which they sell out roughly once through the course of a regular season. Outside of sellouts, Winnipeg typically get 2-3 30K+ games through the course of a regular season, with 25K being easily attainable. Do you think it would be wiser to have a 25K-27K stadium at a higher price point per ticket if it was more difficult to attain tickets?

Do you think Ottawa or Hamilton would be happy at 20,000 seats? What this comes down to is will Halifax be a Regional Riders type fan base, A Toronto type fan base or somewhere in the middle. 24,000 is a good number in my Opinion. The Maritimes have no real Team to Get behind on the national level. I think the support will be outstanding but at the very least 22000+ will show up on a regular saturday game which is fine. I would say the 2 richest teams in the league would be the Riders And Eskimos and they are both in very different stadium situations. It's not a one size fits all league but 24,000 should be a good starter stadium for an unknown fan support

[esquire]

A CFL team in Halifax could probably make it work with 20,000 seats.

Let's face it, if it went to 25,000 seats, much of that would probably be in the end zones anyway... if cutting the end zone seating out would get a stadium built faster, then do that and add the end zone seats at a later date.

[Oilkountry]

Originally Posted by esquire

A CFL team in Halifax could probably make it work with 20,000 seats.

Let's face it, if it went to 25,000 seats, much of that would probably be in the end zones anyway... if cutting the end zone seating out would get a stadium built faster, then do that and add the end zone seats at a later date.

Yes absolutely, You're right they "Could" make it work but in a league where the smallest capacity is at 24,000 and why is an idea of 20,000 even being floated? Didn't The owner of the Ticats say a franchise is break even at 20,000 a few years ago? I think 20,000 is a bad idea. 22,000 might create some scarcity but depending on your fanbase so could 24,000