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  #161  
Old Posted Mar 16, 2008, 9:52 PM
gmny gmny is offline
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maybe the floors don't go all the way up to the slanted roof. making the highest occupied floor at 950' or so... that might explain it! 15 feet or so per floor.
     
     
  #162  
Old Posted Mar 16, 2008, 10:19 PM
pjpmk pjpmk is offline
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eh...

I too was almost knocked outta my chair at the sight of it, but once I got over the initial arousal from the size, I have to admit that the design isn't exactly innovative or interesting and seems to be little more than a bizarrely understated amalgamation of what's "in" as opposed to really going at any length to accomplish anything unique or memorable. If you're going to build a height of such iconic proportion, shouldn't it also be of iconic style? Let's face it, at 50% taller than Comcast, it's likely to be tops for a long, long time... and it ain't as iconic as One Liberty, much less ESB or Chicago Spire to which it has been compared. Yea, I admit, Comcast Center is a little bland to me, but its respect to scale doesn't exactly mar the skyline, despite its design cues coming from your typical diner napkin dispenser. And while arbitrary angles are, for some reason, "in", at least Cira Center's pay tribute to and allude to the city center. Absent symmetry or style, i'm just stuck wondering "why?" Style that weak on a tower that tall is just an expression of Philly's famed inferiority complex. I give the same criticism to the Cira South renderings, if the courage is there to do it, why do it so half-heartedly? Do something interesting.

On the bright side, it still leaves South Philly with a good view of everyting!
     
     
  #163  
Old Posted Mar 16, 2008, 10:40 PM
Chazly7 Chazly7 is offline
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I was thinking the same thing Watusi about the Cingular (AT&T) bars.
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  #164  
Old Posted Mar 16, 2008, 11:50 PM
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Magnus1 Magnus1 is offline
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i hope philly gets this one too!

i dont know about that red & green checkered S#%$ at the bottom. i can look past it though.
     
     
  #165  
Old Posted Mar 17, 2008, 12:34 AM
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Having secured financing is HUGE. After having Bear Sterns collapse this weekend, money is going to get herder and harder to find.
     
     
  #166  
Old Posted Mar 17, 2008, 1:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Thefigman View Post
Having secured financing is HUGE. After having Bear Sterns collapse this weekend, money is going to get herder and harder to find.
Every dogs has its day, Bear Stearns used to doled out huge bonuses to its employees. We'll i guess those days are finally over. Sorry for side track, the ACC is an awesome tower and thank goodness it is not finance by the credit market.
     
     
  #167  
Old Posted Mar 17, 2008, 1:44 AM
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Wow, ok, 1500 feet. Let's move on. When are we getting a 3000 footer?
     
     
  #168  
Old Posted Mar 17, 2008, 1:45 AM
Plokoon11 Plokoon11 is offline
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^ Thats just asking to much, and I think it would look awkward to look at the skyline, OLP 981ft, MB 8??ft, CCT 989ft? and then huge 3000ft Tower.
     
     
  #169  
Old Posted Mar 17, 2008, 1:51 AM
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I'm pretty sure he was joking...

I drove by 18th and Arch tonight and was looking at some of the buildings on arch across the street from the parking lot. Nothing really impressive...besides an ABP. I was thinking, if ACC gets built that block is so going to be transformed from the back end of Center City to the crown jewel...
     
     
  #170  
Old Posted Mar 17, 2008, 4:12 AM
Nowhereman1280 Nowhereman1280 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thefigman View Post
Having secured financing is HUGE. After having Bear Sterns collapse this weekend, money is going to get herder and harder to find.
No its not, money is oozing from every crack right now if you have decent credit and a solid proposition. Its just that most RE ventures in this market are [I]not/I] a solid proposition.

Money is so cheep right now its unbelievable...
     
     
  #171  
Old Posted Mar 17, 2008, 4:46 AM
newboldphilly newboldphilly is offline
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They're not really going to have 19' ceiling heights . . . are they?

I think a lot of the height/floor disparity is because of the 100' atrium, gardens, mechanical space, and the void that's been sketched out for the lower floors.
     
     
  #172  
Old Posted Mar 17, 2008, 4:49 AM
highdensity32 highdensity32 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nowhereman1280 View Post
No its not, money is oozing from every crack right now if you have decent credit and a solid proposition. Its just that most RE ventures in this market are [I]not/I] a solid proposition.

Money is so cheep right now its unbelievable...
There is a lot of liquidity chasing quality investments, but I wouldn't say that money is oozing from every crack. Financing for this size project is beyond just a credit score and a solid proposition. Typically they would need one of the major investment banks to secure financing on this size deal. Apparently its not going to be Bear Stearns.

Fortunately, it sounds like there is pension money lined up for this project.
     
     
  #173  
Old Posted Mar 17, 2008, 7:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Plokoon11 View Post
I feel sorry for Verizon Tower, before CCT, it seemed to be a big buildings, than once CCT completed it shrunk sort of speak, due to the size of CCT. Now poor VT has this huge ACC pop up 2x taller than CCT and looks like a tiny building now.
Its still a tall building!!
     
     
  #174  
Old Posted Mar 17, 2008, 12:02 PM
McBane McBane is offline
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just a little late...

Plan for high-rise would put Philly on world's skyscraper map
By JOHN F. MORRISON
Philadelphia Daily News

morrisj@phillynews.com 215-854-5573

JUST WHEN you thought you were getting over the crick in your neck from looking up at Philly's skyscrapers, along comes a proposal that would be a real test of your flexibility.
There is a proposal afoot to build what would be the tallest building in the Western Hemisphere and the second-tallest building in the world when stacked against existing buildings, at 18th and Arch streets, in Center City.

The American Commerce Center, at a proposed 1,500 feet, would be 525 feet higher than the Comcast Center, now Philly's tallest building at 975 feet, a block away.

It would surpass the Empire State Building's 1,250 feet.

Phillyskyline.com waxed poetic in its description of what's happening:

"Your Philly skyline is about to change. About to incur a growth spurt. About to shatter any notion of Philadelphian reservedness, about to take A New Day A New Way to a whole other level."

Generating this excitement is the proposal to construct what would be a mix of retail, hotel and office space - and even a movie theater - in an $800 million, 2.2-million-square-foot skyscraper on what is now a parking lot.

The project would be built by Walnut Street Capital, a Philadelphia development company headed by Garrett Miller, which purchased the 1.5-acre lot from Verizon Communications Inc. of New York in October.

Does Philadelphia need another giant office building?

Miller thinks so. He said he believes there is a "void" of newer office stock in Center City that this building would fill and help attract corporate headquarters to the city, according to the Philadelphia Business Journal, which reported the tower story in its Friday print edition.

"I think Philadelphia has a need for a new office building," Miller told the Journal.

"It would be an iconic structure," he said. "This is something that Philadelphia has not seen before."

Nor much of the world. The building's height would be second only to Taipei 101, in Taiwan, at 1,670 feet.

There are broadcast towers that are taller: Canadian National Tower, Toronto, 1,815 feet; Ostankin, Moscow, 1,762; KFVS-TV, near Cape Girardeau, Mo., 1,677; and Oriental Pearl, Shanghai, 1,535. But even with several other taller buildings on the drawing board around the world, the proposed edifice would be part of a small club - and eco-friendly on top of that.

The American Commerce Center would be constructed with a U.S. Green Building Council LEED Gold Certification in mind.

A "green building" is one that increases the efficiency with which it uses resources - energy, water and materials, and which reduces its impact on human health and the environment.

The proposed building will need zoning adjustments, but it apparently has the backing of Mayor Nutter.

Through his press secretary, Doug Oliver, the mayor said he believes the building "would be a spectacular addition to Philadelphia's skyline. Sustainability efforts and building green continue to be hallmarks of this administration and the plans for this particular project are consistent with those goals."

The civic association that covers that neighborhood is watching and waiting.

"Obviously, when you drop something bigger than the World Trade Center into a neighborhood there are bound to be implications," said Rob Stuart, president of the Logan Square Neighborhood Association. "We will identify them and see if they can be mitigated. It is clearly out of scale with a lot of our neighboring buildings."*

Stuart said his association was briefed a week ago by the developer and his team and "we are formulating a task force to work on the project."

"There are going to be a lot of discussions. The design might change as a result."

The architect is Kohn Pedersen Fox, which designed the US Airways terminal at Philadelphia International Airport, Huntsman Hall, for the University of Pennsylvania's Wharton School, Mellon Bank Center, Two Logan Square, One Logan Square and the Four Seasons Hotel.

Gene Kohn, one of the partners, is a Philadelphian. He graduated from the University of Pennsylvania in the '50s and once worked for prominent Philadelphia architect Vincent Kling.

The architects, with studios in New York, London and Shanghai, designed buildings - as yet unbuilt - that would be taller than American Commerce Center, in Shanghai and in Hong Kong.

The Shanghai World Financial Center will reach 1,588 feet, and the International Commerce Center in Hong Kong will be 1,608 feet.

Miller, of Walnut Street Capital, said financing is in place for the Philadelphia project but obstacles ahead include the need for zoning adjustments and attracting prospective tenants to occupy the office part of the building.

The Commerce Center will include a 26-story, 473-foot hotel with a garden on top. There would be three to six stories of retail space along Arch Street with a public garden facing the dome of the Arch Street Presbyterian Church.

There would be another garden on the sixth floor, between Arch and Cuthbert streets, overlooking the one below.

The 63-story office tower would be 1,210 feet to the lower portion of the roof, 1,500 feet to the top of a spire.

Miller said some potential tenants of the retail portion of the project include a high-end home store, restaurants, a gourmet food store, a health club and a movie theater with eight screens.

Russell Meddin, Democratic committeeman in the 19th Division of the 8th Ward, said, "It would be a signature building for Philadelphia."

Meddin, who is a board member of the Logan Square Neighborhood Association, said he found the design "fabulous."

While there were mixed feelings in the neighborhood when the Comcast building was proposed, it has been generally accepted, he said.

"This says wonderful things about Philadelphia," Meddin said.

The city has come a long way from the unwritten rule that no building should be higher than the statue of William Penn on City Hall - 548 feet.

There was even a legend that none of the city's sports teams would win a championship if that happened.

The late legendary developer Willard Rouse defied the legend and the old "gentleman's agreement" to keep Philadelphia flat and unexciting when he built the first skyscraper, One Liberty Place, in 1987 at 945 feet.

* the LSNA has a lot of nerve. out of scale? hello - it's right next to CC and BAT. and then he has the audacity to say "our neighborhood." well fuck you! it is not in your neighborhood and even if it was you don't own the neighborhood and you can't dictate what happens with a building that will affect our city's fortunes years after the current crop of crybabies of the LSNA are dead and gone. meanwhile, the building, the jobs, and the tax revenue generated by those jobs will be around far longer than these residents.

on the bright side this thing has way too much support for any major changes - especially in regards to height. although our dislike of nimby's isn't very widespread, if the LSNA is seen as delaying this tower in any way, i think it it will face a huge city-wide backlash. it's not like the casinos. this is something that everybody wants to see happen - at its current hieght - and i don't think that one civic group (representing a bordering neighborhood no less) will be able to stand in the way of this building. sorry LSNA, you're not going to find many symphasizers.

Last edited by McBane; Mar 17, 2008 at 12:23 PM.
     
     
  #175  
Old Posted Mar 17, 2008, 1:24 PM
KillerIman KillerIman is offline
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^^amen mcbane! i agree that they will be met with city/metro wide backlash.

i guess the good ol LSNA wouldn't go for the 3000 footer either

Last edited by KillerIman; Mar 17, 2008 at 1:35 PM.
     
     
  #176  
Old Posted Mar 17, 2008, 2:10 PM
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Quote:
"Obviously, when you drop something bigger than the World Trade Center into a neighborhood there are bound to be implications," said Rob Stuart, president of the Logan Square Neighborhood Association. "We will identify them and see if they can be mitigated. It is clearly out of scale with a lot of our neighboring buildings."
Bigger than the World Trade Center? No, the WTC had more square footage and it was TWO supertall towers as opposed to ACC's one supertall. And the WTC had higher floors than the ACC Tower will. And what is is out of scale with? Comcast Center? If ignorance is bliss this guy must be on cloud nine.
Quote:
"we are formulating a task force to work on the project."

"There are going to be a lot of discussions. The design might change as a result."
Ah, the call of the loony bird. Expect to hear all of the tired old reason of why this shouldn't be built. The "blue hairs" will have their say. I guess this gives them some sense of empowerment. And I love the formulation of a "task force" to mitigate or halt completely a project that is entirely within the CBD. Little do they know we have a task force of our own.

Last edited by Swinefeld; Mar 17, 2008 at 2:18 PM. Reason: clarification
     
     
  #177  
Old Posted Mar 17, 2008, 2:15 PM
c-bo c-bo is offline
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LEED ceiling heights

I have to respectfully disagree with Ninjawho in re: ceiling heights and LEED points.

I know Comcast Center received LEED certification, but their larger than normal ceiling heights (15'-9" on lower floors; 17' on upper) were not a factor in the points that they sought. As far as solar energy goes, I was under the impression that buildings needed to use photovoltaic cells to harness and convert solar energy to actually get points. An increased external glass face could heat the space at times, but it could heat it too much and actually require more air conditioning to cool it down.

I think the high floor to ceiling heights are more about making the built space feel more comfortable. I would figure that greater floor to ceiling height also makes it easier to coordinate MEP above the ceiling. And a final factor that shouldn't be ignored is human ego. Everyone wants to build the tallest building and increasing the floor to ceiling height is one way to do it.
     
     
  #178  
Old Posted Mar 17, 2008, 2:24 PM
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You can do your part right now. Send an eFax to Councilman Clarke at Hallwatch.org and tell him that you support the ACC tower. Click on link below and send a quick message. It will only take a few minutes of your time.

http://www.hallwatch.org/profiles/co...nk/writeletter
     
     
  #179  
Old Posted Mar 17, 2008, 2:25 PM
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Wow that is amazing news. I just read about it right now. That is a tower. Very Kewl...

     
     
  #180  
Old Posted Mar 17, 2008, 2:43 PM
Chriss Chriss is offline
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I really like the hotel part, I'm withholding judgment on the spire.

But I worry about saying "who cares if it's ugly, it's 1500'!" The LAST thing this city needs is for something ugly to dominate the skyline for the next however many years. The architects have to take the time to do it right.
     
     
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